[kavi]

South Asians actually led the world in Bathroom technology around 3000BC but it's too late for me to write a long post about the Indus Valley Civilization so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

[MOVSM]

(01-24-2017 10:08 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(01-24-2017 10:05 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

(01-24-2017 09:45 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

So all the Indians had working toilets and outhouses, until the French came along and said, "Why bother with those toilets? Just use the streets!"

I don't know enough about Indian history to say that what you're describing is completely impossible, but I would want to see some fairly solid evidence.

Pretty sure that has to do with invasion of muslims and ensuing genocide. These things generally result in degradation of standard of living.

But yes, those with better knowledge of Indian history please clarify the record.

Look at the dates on that link. Most of them are from 1300 and before. A bunch of Muslims killed a bunch of Hindus during the middle ages, and so in the year 2017 they can't use bathrooms?

Come on man.

Only those in severe poverty... I'm not exactly defending the abhorrent practice, just trying to provide the insight as to why.
After the genocide, when one is subdued like that, it is hard to recover self respect. The culture is changed as well. Then follow the colonialists. These kinda attacks really do a number on national psyche.
Remember, the French shat in Versailles stairwell even under Louis 14th, when they were a feared force.
Russia was ahead of Europe in many areas under Tzars. Now Russia is behind in economy, thinking, behavior, after communist rape.
So, maybe in the next 50 years?

[kavi]

If there are people who shit in there street, then they have always shat in the street, for thousands of years, so nothing has changed there.

Regarding the historic greatness of India, you are probably referring to the northwestrern regions, inc Pakistan and eastern Afghanistan possibly. India, infact, comes from the Iranian Hapta Hendu which is their version of the Sanskrit Sapta Sindhu meaning seven rivers and that refers to the region I mentioned above centred around Punjab. This is like 5 or 10% of modern India (Punjab, Rajasthan) but all of Pakistan.

Sapta Sindhu is referred to as the homeland of the Aryans in the Rigveda, which is the beginning of all Indian literature. Basically in Indian literature pretty much everything develops from the Rigveda (although Jainism and Buddhism) take different paths. However, all Hinduism starts from the Rigveda, but nothing coming later was of a higher quality.

The Rigveda does not mark the beginning of Hinduism as much as it marks the end of the Vedic Period. In the Rigveda we see a very high level of social development but of a mostly pastoral society. There are numerous references to cattle as being the main concept of wealth. In over 1000 hymns there is barely a reference to agriculture nor to the ownership of land. There are no place names, only river names.

The Rigveda is super archaic, and we have no idea how it developed. It seems in this society there were poet-priests who would create songs and they were held in high-esteem within their society. The Rigveda is a collection of these hymns that at some point were coded, memorized and passed down, but the culture of creating such songs had died. Hence, the Rigveda marks the end of the Vedic period, and probably too the end of pastoralism as the main economic activity of the Indus region.

The Rigveda is the pre-eminent Indo European literature, and in my opinion the Rigveda tribes, or their near ancestors were the original Indo Europeans. However, this is just my opinion and not something I am going to debate in this thread, and I admit there are other possibilities.

Of the Vedic civilization we only have the Rigveda to go by as there is no archeological data to inform us of this period.

When it comes to urbanisation and trade, the same region, centred around Punjab is home to a large civilization known as The Indus Valley Civilization.

Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation

The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) was a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1600 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of the South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India.[2] Along with ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia it was one of three early civilisations of the Old World, and of the three, the most widespread.[3][note 1] It flourished in the basins of the Indus River, which flows through the length of Pakistan, and along a system of perennial, mostly monsoon-fed, rivers that once coursed in the vicinity of the seasonal Ghaggar-Hakra river in northwest India and eastern Pakistan.[4][5][6][note 2] Aridification of this region during the 3rd millennium BCE may have been the initial spur for the urbanisation associated with the civilisation, but eventually also reduced the water supply enough to cause the civilisation's demise, and to scatter its population eastward.[7][8][9][note 3]

The quality of municipal town planning suggests the knowledge of urban planning and efficient municipal governments which placed a high priority on hygiene, or, alternatively, accessibility to the means of religious ritual.

As seen in Harappa, Mohenjo-Daro and the recently partially excavated Rakhigarhi, this urban plan included the world's first known urban sanitation systems: see hydraulic engineering of the Indus Valley Civilisation. From a room that appears to have been set aside for bathing, waste water was directed to covered drains, which lined the major streets. Houses opened only to inner courtyards and smaller lanes. The house-building in some villages in the region still resembles in some respects the house-building of the Harappans.[75]

The ancient Indus systems of sewerage and drainage that were developed and used in cities throughout the Indus region were far more advanced than any found in contemporary urban sites in the Middle East and even more efficient than those in many areas of Pakistan and India today.

Although some houses were larger than others, Indus Civilisation cities were remarkable for their apparent, if relative, egalitarianism. All the houses had access to water and drainage facilities. This gives the impression of a society with relatively low wealth concentration, though clear social levelling is seen in personal adornments.

Toilets that used water were used in the Indus Valley Civilization. The cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro had a flush toilet in almost every house, attached to a sophisticated sewage system.[78]

During 4300–3200 BCE of the chalcolithic period (copper age), the Indus Valley Civilisation area shows ceramic similarities with southern Turkmenistan and northern Iran which suggest considerable mobility and trade.Judging from the dispersal of Indus civilisation artefacts, the trade networks, economically, integrated a huge area, including portions of Afghanistan, the coastal regions of Persia, northern and western India, and Mesopotamia. There is some evidence that trade contacts extended to Crete and possibly to Egypt

The funerary practices of the Harappan civilisation are marked by their diversity, with evidence of supine burial, fractional burial (in which the body is reduced to skeletal remains by exposure to the elements before final interment), and even cremation.

Archaeological excavations indicate that the decline of Harappa drove people eastward.[147] After 1900 BCE the number of sites in India increased from 218 to 853. Excavations in the Gangetic plain show that urban settlement began around 1200 BCE, only a few centuries after the decline of Harappa and much earlier than previously expected.

Rivers mentioned in the Rigveda




Indus Valley Civilization




As you can see both the Rigveda and the IVC are centred around the Punjab and do not really go very far into modern day India.

IVC seems to have moved eastwards after it's demise in it's original location, this is likely the time when 'India' emerges as a civilization on it's own, centred around the Ganges rather than the Indus Basin, and is the India most people know of.

However, this is quite late in the story of South Asian civilisation, and they seem to have 'inherited' much from earlier developments in the Indus Basin. That civilization was likely created by elites moving east that brought with them a culture that developed a high urban civilisation but that still remembered it's origins as a Pastoral warrior society. The descendants of those early Vedic poets memorized the hymns of their famous ancestors and compiled them together into one collection. These descendants became the priests of the urban and settled society and managed to maintain their prestige and dominance as they moved eastwards. The people of the Ganga plains never managed to reach a level of development (if you wish to call it that) on their own and hence most of them became the lower class workers of the incoming dominant group, and have remained as such.

Now, this should answer your question as to how a civilization that once led the world in Bathroom technology now has people shitting in the street. It is because they are not the same people, and infact, you will not see people shitting in the streets if you look in those places where the IVC emerged, the northwestern part of the subcontinent.

Pakistan really confused a lot of people by calling themselves such. Pakistan should really have been named India (as it is geographically much closer to Sapta Sindhu) but the nature of those people causes them to constantly re-invent themselves and forgot and move on from the ancient past. It is not only Islam, even in ancient Hindu texts it mentions not go to Punjab as that area does not follow the values of Brahmanism (mostly the caste system). This would be because the Brahmins were not capable of maintaining their exhalted and high status in the very society they came from, probably because they came from there, and therefore never had anything unique or different to justify their claims of high status.

It is interesting that the IVC is so egalitarian, much like a Punjabi village today. In my village in India, there are two tribes, one are the landowners who have higher social status and the other are a poorer tribe who do not own land and have low status, and shit in the street. Both tribes look very different from each other and do not mix but have friendly economic relations. The high status tribe and low status tribe have very different origins, the high status tribe having greater affinities to another region. In Punjab however, everyone has the same origin and you will not see this type of heirarchy, and there are no very low-status people who shit in the street.

My point is that if a region develops indigenously then you will see more equality in that area. If economic or social ideas (or a civilization) is brought in from the outside, then those people bringing in that system will have a higher status and you will find a more rigidly heirarchical society, the dominant group having too much experience over the natives for the natives to be able to overturn their dominance. This is what we see in India with the caste system and is why the caste system does not exist in the Punjab.

[John Quincy]

(12-13-2016 11:02 PM)scotian Wrote:  

What are your guys' thoughts on, or do you have any links to articles about Indian organized crime? I had a conversation with a Hindu co-worker about the invasion of the Sikh Gold Temple back in the 80s and he said it was because the Sikhs were storing drugs, guns and money there to fund the Khalistan separation movement. He went on to say that the Sikhs were the biggest gangsters in India and that's we now have Sikh gangs in Canada. I"m a pretty big fan of mafia stories but don't know much about organized crime in India, it must be pretty huge over there.

Scotian, check out Suketu Mehta's book, Maximum City. I think it came out in the early 2000s and I know it was very well received. And check out the Bollywood movie Traffic Signal. That was a real eye-opener for me (perhaps because I was very blue-pill at the time).

Also: a long, overdue rep to you for your many contributions to the forum. +1. Thank you, my friend.

[tapthatass]

->India won't become the next superpower. Yea it's getting better but the progress is way too slow. The problem is mostly due to the backward thinking that still plagues society. People need to change(this won't happen.).

-> You can say that India is filled with filth everywhere. People have no standards. Yes, I have seen people 'shit' in public in front of me but that was in a remote village.

In the end it all comes down to where you live, just like in any other country.

[WalterBlack]

(01-25-2017 04:08 PM)kavi Wrote:  

This is what we see in India with the caste system and is why the caste system does not exist in the Punjab.

I'm Punjabi and that's totally incorrect.

Punjabi Hindu Castes

Quote:

Most Punjabi Hindus come from Brahmin, Arora, Rajput, Khatri, Agarwal, Bhatia, Chamar, Kumhar, Chhimba, and Saini communities.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(01-26-2017 11:09 AM)tapthatass Wrote:  

-> You can say that India is filled with filth everywhere. People have no standards. Yes, I have seen people 'shit' in public in front of me but that was in a remote village.

In the end it all comes down to where you live, just like in any other country.

I've lived in other countries and I've never seen anyone shit in public.

[Arado]

(01-25-2017 04:08 PM)kavi Wrote:  

My point is that if a region develops indigenously then you will see more equality in that area. If economic or social ideas (or a civilization) is brought in from the outside, then those people bringing in that system will have a higher status and you will find a more rigidly heirarchical society, the dominant group having too much experience over the natives for the natives to be able to overturn their dominance. This is what we see in India with the caste system and is why the caste system does not exist in the Punjab.

Not sure if I agree with this 100%, since the caste system is all over India but at some point in this thread we will have to talk about race, caste, IQ, and caste reservations that are hampering meritocracy in India. These are super sensitive issues but this is unavoidable if you want to get to the heart of why India can't get its shit together. There is a shit ton of political correctness and SJW surrounding caste issues in India, and this thread is probably one of the rare locations on the Internet where things can get digested objectively.

If you look at Indian history, the current population is a broad range of ethnic groups, from the original Australoids/tribals that came over 50,000 years ago, to the Aryan invaders during IVC, to the Greeks during Alexander the Great, to the Arabs/Persians during the Muslim Invasions, etc...each of these groups has had a profound impact on India's gene pool and racial mix and these differences remain clear today though rarely mentioned in society.

Some food for thought - when the intellectuals (Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas) were ruling India during the dynasties, it was a different system then now where politicians pander to the illiterate masses to get elected and corruption is out of control. Add in caste reservations and dysfunction becomes the norm in a good chunk of public institutions.

[kavi]

Yeah i did some more reading and it seems it maybe all over India. I thought Indian punjab would have been more similar to Pakistan where people look more similar and there isnt the usual tall/fair/fit high caste vs short/dark/unfit type of division you see in India which I think is prevalent where there are deep caste divides, and extreme poverty and filth.

Edit, ofcourse that type of divide does not exist in Indian Kashmir.

[Arado]

Would this be the appropriate place to talk about where Indians fit in in a post-Trump America? There was some discussion on the Trump thread but perhaps it's more appropriate here?

Obviously I think the media is trying to rile up Indians and make them afraid that white nationalists are out to get them and are empowered by Trump. That's bs - the U.S. is still very tolerant, and Trump even has an Indian-American in his cabinet and has appointed several in relatively prominent positions. He also appeared at the bizarre Bollywood event, and from a geopolitical standpoint, India is a natural ally in the fight against terrorism and as the U.S. rivalry with China (Bannon says war with China is coming in the next ten years) heats up.

However, there are some things to be a bit concerned about:

-It is without question that anti-Islam sentiment will go up. Not saying it isn't justified given all the crap happening around the world, but we can't assume that Indians in the US won't be on the receiving end of hostility on occasion. Luckily the world has been quiet, but let's say another massive attack happens under Trump. Hard to say how Indians will come out. Most Americans can't tell the difference between Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus, and Christian Indians, so they will all be lumped in the same category. In addition, it's guaranteed that unless there are massive deportations, Europe will be hit by significant ethnic conflict, and white Americans will start to feel greater compassion for native Europeans under assault.

-If there is an H1B crackdown at some point, it will hit Indians perhaps the hardest out of any group. Americans are right to feel that it's ridiculous to allow companies to import cheap labor from abroad to replace American workers in the tech sector, but at the same time can we guarantee that this will have zero racial undertone?

-Indian feminists continue to freak out like crazy over Trump and this will naturally lead to some neutral Trump supporters becoming more suspicious of the Indian community.

-Also Rep Steve King's recent tweet:

Quote:

“We can’t restore our civilization with somebody else’s babies”

I actually understand where he is coming from. Indians would have a freak out if they were undergoing demographic replacement in India like white people are facing over the next century. Multiculturalism is the foundation of the 1960's immigration reform, and once that is discredited, does it mean that immigration from non-European countries is no longer welcome?

In general, any time there is an article about India on Breitbart or American Renaissance or any other alt-right type publication it is wall to wall anti-Indian comments. In America we may be the model minority in terms of low crime rates and welfare dependence, but that doesn't stop the haters. Also, we have to be honest that luckily the U.S. has been getting the cream of the crop from India. If the average uneducated Indian was immigrating to the U.S. as opposed to Phd students and engineers, there would be a shit ton of dysfunction in the community.

I've travelled all over the world, and the U.S. is FAR more tolerant and accepting towards Indians than virtually any other country in the world. Will this always be the case, though, as Islamic terrorism increases, the H1B crackdown takes hold, Indian feminists go nuts, and whites become a minority? I don't know.

[SamuelBRoberts]

I said this in the other thread as well, but Indians in the states should be praying for an H1-B crackdown. If they had any sense they'd be spearheading it themselves.

If there is a crackdown that results in say, the end of the H-1B program, any animosity that's building up towards Indians in the US will more or less immediately disappear.

10 more years of stories about how whole departments are forced to train their low-cost Indian replacements, however...

[Agastya]

(03-14-2017 11:14 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

I said this in the other thread as well, but Indians in the states should be praying for an H1-B crackdown. If they had any sense they'd be spearheading it themselves.

If there is a crackdown that results in say, the end of the H-1B program, any animosity that's building up towards Indians in the US will more or less immediately disappear.

10 more years of stories about how whole departments are forced to train their low-cost Indian replacements, however...

This is extremely true, but I do wonder about how many of the people fired in favor of low-cost Indians are themselves Indian or otherwise non-white? I feel like a lot of IT departments are already staffed by Asian or Indian Americans (or Indians who have been here long enough that they are basically American, like my dad). White guys who got fired from these IT departments would have seen the same thing happening to their colleagues of different races. This is why I'm not 100 % about the H1B being seen as a racial issue. I've visited my dad at work and almost all of the executives or employees are either Asian American or experienced expats from other countries (including a lot of Ukranians and Israelis).

I'm not yet in the working world (still in college) and my dad's workplace might be a unique situation, so I'm interested in hearing about how the H1B is perceived in other places.

Can't imagine how humiliating it must be to lose your livelihood so Disney can use FOBs as slave labor.

[Agastya]

(03-14-2017 11:14 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

I said this in the other thread as well, but Indians in the states should be praying for an H1-B crackdown. If they had any sense they'd be spearheading it themselves.

If there is a crackdown that results in say, the end of the H-1B program, any animosity that's building up towards Indians in the US will more or less immediately disappear.

10 more years of stories about how whole departments are forced to train their low-cost Indian replacements, however...

This is extremely true, but I do wonder about how many of the people fired in favor of low-cost Indians are themselves Indian or otherwise non-white? I feel like a lot of IT departments are already staffed by Asian or Indian Americans (or Indians who have been here long enough that they are basically American, like my dad). White guys who got fired from these IT departments would have seen the same thing happening to their colleagues of different races. This is why I'm not 100 % about the H1B being seen as a racial issue. I've visited my dad at work and almost all of the executives or employees are either Asian American or experienced expats from other countries (including a lot of Ukranians and Israelis).

I'm not yet in the working world (still in college) and my dad's workplace might be a unique situation, so I'm interested in hearing about how the H1B is perceived in other places.

Can't imagine how humiliating it must be to lose your livelihood so Disney can use FOBs as slave labor.

[Samseau]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-16...ms-run-dry

Quote:

Five months have passed since the demonetisation drive, but the people of India continue to face a shortage of cash in banks and ATMs. The Times of India reports that more than 90% of the ATMs in the northern region do not have cash, and in the southern states as many as 65% of ATMs have run dry.

[Vet-Boy]

Anyone have opinions on how the sikhs were stripped of land and resources after partition? I mean they made up a proportionately and overall very large percentage of those who sacrificed themselves for the country's freedom and to this day make up a very large portion of the country's military. I feel its insulting to call them anti nationalists when there was never a clear demand for sovereignty, but rather calls for more autonomy, and preservation of land and resources wiithin the state.

Personally I do not support khalistan whatsoever but I do believe that the sikhs/punjabis were cheated, even when part of the conditions for independance granted the creation of a sikh homeland/state.

To this day I believe, Sikhs are still not considered a group in India under the constitution, they are regarded as Hindhus, even though they are a near night and day in terms of some beliefs, culture and practices relative to hindhus across india.

[Vet-Boy]

Anyone have opinions on how the sikhs were stripped of land and resources after partition? I mean they made up a proportionately and overall very large percentage of those who sacrificed themselves for the country's freedom and to this day make up a very large portion of the country's military. I feel its insulting to call them anti nationalists when there was never a clear demand for sovereignty, but rather calls for more autonomy, and preservation of land and resources wiithin the state.

Personally I do not support khalistan whatsoever but I do believe that the sikhs/punjabis were cheated, even when part of the conditions for independance granted the creation of a sikh homeland/state.

To this day I believe, Sikhs are still not considered a group in India under the constitution, they are regarded as Hindhus, even though they are a near night and day in terms of some beliefs, culture and practices relative to hindhus across india.

[Fortis]

Interesting thread.

Never thought to look into Indian politics. NOt exactly a country I'm looking forward to visiting, but very interesting.

Didn't know Sikhs were gangsters. Most of the Sikhs I meet abroad seem like true bros. Really easygoing and interesting.

Samuel, I get where you're coming from, but I think for the thread's sake it doesn't make much sense to come in here throwing salt about a country that you're ill-informed about. A lot of the same stuff you hate about India is also present in China. No clue where it comes from but it's more interesting to try and figure out why these things happen instead of just condemning the populace as a whole.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(04-19-2017 02:09 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Interesting thread.

Never thought to look into Indian politics. NOt exactly a country I'm looking forward to visiting, but very interesting.

Didn't know Sikhs were gangsters. Most of the Sikhs I meet abroad seem like true bros. Really easygoing and interesting.

Samuel, I get where you're coming from, but I think for the thread's sake it doesn't make much sense to come in here throwing salt about a country that you're ill-informed about. A lot of the same stuff you hate about India is also present in China. No clue where it comes from but it's more interesting to try and figure out why these things happen instead of just condemning the populace as a whole.

I disagree strongly. Part of the reason the west is such a mess is that we can't look at bad things other cultures have and say, "That thing this other culture is doing is bad and disgusting." or "If you all voted for someone who promised to put 22k in every person's bank account, your country is filled with a bunch of idiots."

As for whether I'm ill-informed or not, so far I've been met with "The Mongols invaded back in the days before Christopher Columbus, and that's why Indians can't have toilets in 2017. Unless maybe it was the French."
So I'm thinking that perhaps I'm not as ill-informed as I might be.

[Arado]

(04-19-2017 02:55 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

I disagree strongly. Part of the reason the west is such a mess is that we can't look at bad things other cultures have and say, "That thing this other culture is doing is bad and disgusting." or "If you all voted for someone who promised to put 22k in every person's bank account, your country is filled with a bunch of idiots."

As for whether I'm ill-informed or not, so far I've been met with "The Mongols invaded back in the days before Christopher Columbus, and that's why Indians can't have toilets in 2017. Unless maybe it was the French."
So I'm thinking that perhaps I'm not as ill-informed as I might be.

There is definitely value in discussing the problems in India. Indians are in denial about the dysfunction there, mainly because there is a huge class of educated Indians that function well in the West and international business, and they live in a different world than the average illiterate street shitting peasant. If we were forced to admit it then perhaps we could start thinking of solutions to bringing India into modernity.

To really address the issues, we will have to discuss how race, genetics, and IQ interplay among the Indian population, and I don't know if we are ready for that yet.

[Genghis Khan]

(04-17-2017 03:51 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-16...ms-run-dry

Quote:

Five months have passed since the demonetisation drive, but the people of India continue to face a shortage of cash in banks and ATMs. The Times of India reports that more than 90% of the ATMs in the northern region do not have cash, and in the southern states as many as 65% of ATMs have run dry.

Shoddy reporting by ZH, perhaps due to a potential confirmation bias considering they gave a hack like Jayant Bhandari a platform.

First of all, the state is in the south. ZH makes it sound like the region is in the northern part of the country ("northern region") rather than the northern part of a southern state.

Two, the three districts mentioned in Times of India, which has a very left-wing bias, has a total population of 3 million people. Considering India has a population of 1.2bn, that's a failure rate of 0.25%. That's the best they can do to declare demonetisation a failure? That's the best they could find?

Even the India.com article that ZH quotes is suspect:

Quote:

The post-demonetisation woes continue to haunt the common man in the country as many ATMs in metro cities seem to be running low on cash for the last one week.

Wow, the country is having issues for one whole week. Yup, complete failure alright...

Make no mistake, the English language media in India is out for blood against Modi. Similar to Trump, Modi and BJP winning in a landslide in the national elections came as an utter shock.

[Genghis Khan]

(04-19-2017 02:55 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

I disagree strongly. Part of the reason the west is such a mess is that we can't look at bad things other cultures have and say, "That thing this other culture is doing is bad and disgusting." or "If you all voted for someone who promised to put 22k in every person's bank account, your country is filled with a bunch of idiots."

As for whether I'm ill-informed or not, so far I've been met with "The Mongols invaded back in the days before Christopher Columbus, and that's why Indians can't have toilets in 2017. Unless maybe it was the French."
So I'm thinking that perhaps I'm not as ill-informed as I might be.

I can't speak for other posters, but at least I am not going to defend the lack of toilets. It is absolutely inexcusable.

Regarding the 22K thing - Modi mentioned it once as a rhetorical instrument to show that there's so much black money that it'd be enough to deposit 1.5 million rupees (about $22K) into every person's bank account. Sadly, another politician stated an actual deposit would happen within 100 days and the media pounced on it. Saying people are idiots for voting for Modi because of that rhetorical statement is unduly harsh - there were many reasons people voted for him, predominantly economic development and better governance. Two things Modi was known for as Chief Minister of Gujarat.

By the same logic, one could easily find something outlandish Trump said during his campaign and argue that Trump voters are idiots for believing him.

(04-19-2017 05:57 AM)Arado Wrote:  

There is definitely value in discussing the problems in India. Indians are in denial about the dysfunction there, mainly because there is a huge class of educated Indians that function well in the West and international business, and they live in a different world than the average illiterate street shitting peasant. If we were forced to admit it then perhaps we could start thinking of solutions to bringing India into modernity.

To really address the issues, we will have to discuss how race, genetics, and IQ interplay among the Indian population, and I don't know if we are ready for that yet.

I don't know what you're on about. I've already mentioned the IQ problem in this thread. And we have talked about differences between North and South Indians. None of these topics are closed for debate.

I also don't know who you're referring to when you say Indians are in denial about the dysfunction. The elite English-speaking Indians...maybe. But what does it matter? At the end of the day, their favorite party, the Congress party, got beat in the elections and quite decisively so.

Arado, are you Chinese? I don't know why, but the government of China seems to have a bone to pick with India. Maybe it's because India is the only country in the region that could act as a counterbalance to China - just by sheer size, GDP and military force. Or maybe the Chinese government is butthurt India gave the Dalai Lama refuge. Or perhaps that India is a democracy. God knows the Chinese government loves to diss American democracy whenever it has a chance. China has tried to undermine India continuously - whether it's by arming Pakistan, funding and arming separatist movements in the Northeast or getting all friendly with Sri Lanka. Not to mention the amusing articles in Chinese government-run media about how India is going to splinter in thousands of nations. I've always gotten the impression the Chinese, in general, have a very negative view of India. And as someone else has pointed out on this forum they don't seem to like when they get told Indians in the West are financially more successful than the Chinese in the West. Your statements throughout this thread make me wonder how much Chinese media regarding India you've consumed because it sounds like you're regurgitating their points.

[Arado]

(04-19-2017 11:59 AM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

(04-19-2017 05:57 AM)Arado Wrote:  

There is definitely value in discussing the problems in India. Indians are in denial about the dysfunction there, mainly because there is a huge class of educated Indians that function well in the West and international business, and they live in a different world than the average illiterate street shitting peasant. If we were forced to admit it then perhaps we could start thinking of solutions to bringing India into modernity.

To really address the issues, we will have to discuss how race, genetics, and IQ interplay among the Indian population, and I don't know if we are ready for that yet.

I don't know what you're on about. I've already mentioned the IQ problem in this thread. And we have talked about differences between North and South Indians. None of these topics are closed for debate.

I also don't know who you're referring to when you say Indians are in denial about the dysfunction. The elite English-speaking Indians...maybe. But what does it matter? At the end of the day, their favorite party, the Congress party, got beat in the elections and quite decisively so.

Arado, are you Chinese? I don't know why, but the government of China seems to have a bone to pick with India. Maybe it's because India is the only country in the region that could act as a counterbalance to China - just by sheer size, GDP and military force. Or maybe the Chinese government is butthurt India gave the Dalai Lama refuge. Or perhaps that India is a democracy. God knows the Chinese government loves to diss American democracy whenever it has a chance. China has tried to undermine India continuously - whether it's by arming Pakistan, funding and arming separatist movements in the Northeast or getting all friendly with Sri Lanka. Not to mention the amusing articles in Chinese government-run media about how India is going to splinter in thousands of nations. I've always gotten the impression the Chinese, in general, have a very negative view of India. And as someone else has pointed out on this forum they don't seem to like when they get told Indians in the West are financially more successful than the Chinese in the West. Your statements throughout this thread make me wonder how much Chinese media regarding India you've consumed because it sounds like you're regurgitating their points.

Ok, I think IQ was mentioned in passing, but its importance can't be overestimated since IQ is a pretty accurate way of correlating the overall functioning of a country throughout the world. So, if low IQ is the problem for India then let's bring it front and center and try to figure out how to deal with it.

Regarding in denial - yes that is the English speaking elite, but then again they are the ones who are prevalent in the West and have control over the society so if they can't face the facts about Indian dysfunction then no one can. I'm definitely not expecting the illiterate peasants who harass women, shit in the street, vote for corrupt politicians, and keep demanding affirmative action to actually make the country better.

No I'm not Chinese - I'm of South Asian origin in fact but I know China very well. China and India were at the same GDP per capita in the 1950's but yet China was able to race ahead of India and will soon become a superpower. Chinese look down on India and barely consider it worth their time to worry about outside of making fun of them and selling cheap smartphones. Chinese are not worried about Indian democracy influencing China - it's the opposite. The chaos, backwardness, corruption, and crime in India is perfect propaganda to show Chinese people that democracy is useless. Dalai Lama is maybe the one thing that India can poke China's eye in, but China has far more cards to play.

Even by devoting just a fraction of their foreign policy bandwidth to India they are able to undermine it. What is India's response? Complain about Pakistan, complain about the British, complain about the Christians, and the Muslims. No one gives a shit about historical injustice. China has also been shit on by history but instead of just whining about it they are also getting their shit together and expanding militarily to tell other countries to screw off.

Instead of focusing on the core issue of having a backwards population, India is instead focusing on gimmick policies like the demonetization drive, while China keeps moving ahead.

So yeah, India needs to get its shit together soon and we need to abandon all political correctness and think of serious solutions. Otherwise, other countries will keep determining India's fate.

[SamuelBRoberts]

How much of India's problems are caused by things like the US H1-B program, which takes anybody with a modicum of intelligence (and quite a few without) out of the country and gives them no incentive to work on improving things back home?

[Genghis Khan]

(04-20-2017 12:49 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

How much of India's problems are caused by things like the US H1-B program, which takes anybody with a modicum of intelligence (and quite a few without) out of the country and gives them no incentive to work on improving things back home?

Probably not a significant effect. India at large is an economically undeveloped nation. The immense level of poverty and illiteracy, the abysmal condition of the infrastructure, the deep-seated corruption and the insanely frustrating bureaucratic red tape have held the country back (I've wanted to kill myself for the sheer amount of paperwork required to open a bank account). I'm not big on monomania, but if I did have to pick a single cause for all of this, it would be that India has until 1990 followed the communist approach of a planned economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj

Quote:

The Licence Raj or Permit Raj (rāj, meaning "rule" in Hindi) was the elaborate system of licences, regulations and accompanying red tape that were required to set up and run businesses in India between 1947 and 1990.

The Licence Raj was a result of India's decision to have a planned economy where all aspects of the economy are controlled by the state and licences are given to a select few. Up to 80 government agencies had to be satisfied before private companies could produce something and, if granted, the government would regulate production.

Reforms since the mid-1980s have significantly reduced regulation, but Indian labour laws still prevent manufacturers from reducing their workforce without prohibitive burdens.

I blame the Congress Party for aligning itself with communist nations after independence (1947). And perhaps unsurprisingly, it took the fall of Soviet Union for the nation to realize a central government-planned economy is a terrible idea. The rapid economic growth India has seen recently is directly attributable to India becoming more capitalistic. Although there's still a lot to be done.

As for Indian immigrants to the US, I don't think the 'brain drain' has been that significant. The US has approximately 4 million people of Indian origin. Two million came in the last decade and are predominantly IT workers from lower tier universities. So not exactly the high intelligence crowd.

The other 2 million - assuming it's pop, mom and 2 kids per family, and the women are typically housewives, means India lost half a million male workers. Take into consideration a lot of people immigration through chain immigration policies, and I'd estimate at best India lost 200K really smart people. For a country of 1.2bn, a drop in the bucket.

But heck, let's assume those 200K are absolute geniuses. Mostly engineers and scientists who usually work at US universities or fortune 500 R&D labs. Now, one could argue that these engineers and scientists could've done more staying in India and starting companies there. But that would require ignoring the bureaucratic nightmare the license raj, not just with paperwork but the amount of bribing needed. On top of that, before the advent of the internet, technology had a very high start-up cost due to the fact that technology was heavy on hardware ($$$) and very light on the software side.

If you combine the removal of the license raj and the affordability of a PC, you might expect India to suddenly create several massive software companies. And incidentally, that is exactly what happened in the 2000s.

It's also worth noting that after the end of the license raj, some of the engineers have used their experience in the US to move back and start companies in India. And then you also have an interesting breed of Indian businessmen who have capitalized on opportunities in the West to provide jobs back in India. For example, there are approximately 10,000 Gujarati diamond traders who moved to Europe and US. They employ over a million people in the city of Surat back in India.

So although incredibly hard to really tally up the pros and cons of immigration to the US, I'd say it's been a net positive for India.

[Genghis Khan]

(04-20-2017 09:55 AM)Arado Wrote:  

Ok, I think IQ was mentioned in passing, but its importance can't be overestimated since IQ is a pretty accurate way of correlating the overall functioning of a country throughout the world. So, if low IQ is the problem for India then let's bring it front and center and try to figure out how to deal with it.

IQ-related issues are fascinating on an academic level. However, I'm not sure what elected politicians can accomplish by announcing it as an issue.

IQ is either immutable or not. If IQ is immutable, meaning higher levels of nutrition, healthcare and education won't raise IQ levels, you're left with mass genocide of your lower IQ population as the only solution - not a viable scenario.

Or IQ isn't immutable and better nutrition/education is the path to go. In that case, the best approach is to put economic development at the forefront. Give people jobs, good-paying jobs, and they can afford better nutrition, healthcare, and education.

Quote:

Regarding in denial - yes that is the English speaking elite, but then again they are the ones who are prevalent in the West and have control over the society so if they can't face the facts about Indian dysfunction then no one can. I'm definitely not expecting the illiterate peasants who harass women, shit in the street, vote for corrupt politicians, and keep demanding affirmative action to actually make the country better.

I don't know why it's relevant that they're prevalent in the West. As for having control of society, I'd take a careful look at the top brass of the BJP, the ruling party nationally and the ruling party in most Indian states. Modi himself was a chaiwalla.

I'll take this argument seriously when Rahul Gandhi, a Harvard-educated elitist, can actually win an election.

Quote:

No I'm not Chinese - I'm of South Asian origin in fact but I know China very well. China and India were at the same GDP per capita in the 1950's but yet China was able to race ahead of India and will soon become a superpower.

China started reforming its economy a decade before India. Of course, it raced ahead. As for it becoming a superpower, that's still to be seen. I know you're quite optimistic about China's chances, but I'm not that confident their economy is all that strong.

Quote:

Chinese look down on India and barely consider it worth their time to worry about outside of making fun of them and selling cheap smartphones. Chinese are not worried about Indian democracy influencing China - it's the opposite. The chaos, backwardness, corruption, and crime in India is perfect propaganda to show Chinese people that democracy is useless. Dalai Lama is maybe the one thing that India can poke China's eye in, but China has far more cards to play.

There is a difference between how much time the average Chinese person might spend worrying about India and how much the Chinese government spends on it. And from what I can tell, the Chinese government is very uncomfortable with India becoming a counterweight. Of course they can't admit as much to their own people. The amount of money they pour into Pakistan and separatists proves it.

Quote:

Even by devoting just a fraction of their foreign policy bandwidth to India they are able to undermine it. What is India's response? Complain about Pakistan, complain about the British, complain about the Christians, and the Muslims. No one gives a shit about historical injustice. China has also been shit on by history but instead of just whining about it they are also getting their shit together and expanding militarily to tell other countries to screw off.

The complaint about the British is annoying indeed.

The complaint about Pakistan is tremendously valid, considering how much of Pakistan's GDP is spent on its army. Or the fact that ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service, is actively busy training and sending terrorists into India. Christians keep converting poor Hindus using cheap gimmicks. And muslims are, as this forum knows, a dangerous minority in any nation. These are all valid concerns. Preserving one's culture or being concerned about safety is as important as military or economic strength.

Only time will tell how China's military strategy will play out. They're being incredibly antagonistic towards all its neighbors and it would not surprise me if they end up isolating themselves completely.

Quote:

Instead of focusing on the core issue of having a backwards population, India is instead focusing on gimmick policies like the demonetization drive, while China keeps moving ahead.

And you're basing the argument that the demonetization drive is a gimmick on what exactly? Its purpose is to target black money and fill government tax coffers. As you may know, approximately only 1% of India pays federal taxes. Reducing counterfeiting (another Pakistani hobby), being able to track money and making it harder for corruption are all noble goals towards economic development, which incidentally is also how you improve the problem of having a backwards population as I stated in the start of this post.