[SamuelBRoberts]

(04-20-2017 08:21 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 12:49 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

How much of India's problems are caused by things like the US H1-B program, which takes anybody with a modicum of intelligence (and quite a few without) out of the country and gives them no incentive to work on improving things back home?

Probably not a significant effect. India at large is an economically undeveloped nation. The immense level of poverty and illiteracy, the abysmal condition of the infrastructure, the deep-seated corruption and the insanely frustrating bureaucratic red tape have held the country back (I've wanted to kill myself for the sheer amount of paperwork required to open a bank account). I'm not big on monomania, but if I did have to pick a single cause for all of this, it would be that India has until 1990 followed the communist approach of a planned economy.

....

The other 2 million - assuming it's pop, mom and 2 kids per family, and the women are typically housewives, means India lost half a million male workers. Take into consideration a lot of people immigration through chain immigration policies, and I'd estimate at best India lost 200K really smart people. For a country of 1.2bn, a drop in the bucket.

Very high quality response. +1 Rep from me. It's hard for Westerners to get a handle of how big 1.2 billion people really is.

[Arado]

(04-20-2017 08:49 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

IQ-related issues are fascinating on an academic level. However, I'm not sure what elected politicians can accomplish by announcing it as an issue.

IQ is either immutable or not. If IQ is immutable, meaning higher levels of nutrition, healthcare and education won't raise IQ levels, you're left with mass genocide of your lower IQ population as the only solution - not a viable scenario.

Or IQ isn't immutable and better nutrition/education is the path to go. In that case, the best approach is to put economic development at the forefront. Give people jobs, good-paying jobs, and they can afford better nutrition, healthcare, and education.

Look - IQ can be improved with better nutrition, but eventually it will hit a ceiling. What if India's IQ ceiling is around 85-90 (currently they test in the low 80's). In that case, India is fucked - there is not a single country out there with that IQ and population density and without oil(or another easy profit resource) that has become a wealthy modern country. While obviously genocide is out of the question, at the very LEAST the government could take steps to limit the illiterate from popping out kids while the educated class, empowered by feminism and Western propaganda, delays motherhood in favor of career. I am dumbfounded by the way that dysgenics is proceeding in India without stopping, it is going to be a catastrophe in the future once automation removes the need for any unskilled labor in the workforce.

Genetics matter when we're talking about a country's economic prospects. And as the media, academia, and investment banks continue to ignore IQ and genetics, then it will remain a ripe topic for discussion here and will have far more explanatory value then virtually any other factor.

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I don't know why it's relevant that they're prevalent in the West. As for having control of society, I'd take a careful look at the top brass of the BJP, the ruling party nationally and the ruling party in most Indian states. Modi himself was a chaiwalla.

I'll take this argument seriously when Rahul Gandhi, a Harvard-educated elitist, can actually win an election.

I don't think we're arguing on this point - both English speaking and non-English speaking are unwilling to admit the backwardness of India and also admit that progress has been too slow and something has to change drastically. That will be a problem going forward. Modi's fiery speeches are great and all, but if it doesn't improve efficiency then it won't help.

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China started reforming its economy a decade before India. Of course, it raced ahead. As for it becoming a superpower, that's still to be seen. I know you're quite optimistic about China's chances, but I'm not that confident their economy is all that strong.

India embraced market reforms later than China, but India did not go through anything close to as devastating as the great leap forward and cultural revolution that China had, which hurt China far more than the license Raj. 50 MILLION people died in the great leap forward and people had to resort to cannibalism. The great leap forward destroyed tradition and crushed the intellectual class. Yet, China bounced back though and got it's shit together...while Indians still shit in the streets.

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There is a difference between how much time the average Chinese person might spend worrying about India and how much the Chinese government spends on it. And from what I can tell, the Chinese government is very uncomfortable with India becoming a counterweight. Of course they can't admit as much to their own people. The amount of money they pour into Pakistan and separatists proves it.

Absolutely false. First of all, India may be a cultural counterweight but economically and militarily it will never be competitive with China, perhaps only as cannon fodder for U.S. or Japanese efforts to contain China, so China is only worried about India to the degree that India will be used by outside powers to contain China. India is far down the list of China's foreign policy priorities, which include Taiwan, North Korea, South China Sea, Diaoyu Islands, One Belt One Road, Africa, gobbling up companies in Europe, etc...trust me Chinese are not at all worried about India. They crushed them in the last war and can easily crush them again.

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The complaint about the British is annoying indeed.

The complaint about Pakistan is tremendously valid, considering how much of Pakistan's GDP is spent on its army. Or the fact that ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service, is actively busy training and sending terrorists into India. Christians keep converting poor Hindus using cheap gimmicks. And muslims are, as this forum knows, a dangerous minority in any nation. These are all valid concerns. Preserving one's culture or being concerned about safety is as important as military or economic strength.

Only time will tell how China's military strategy will play out. They're being incredibly antagonistic towards all its neighbors and it would not surprise me if they end up isolating themselves completely.

Look I know Pakistan does some shitty stuff and of course I'm hoping that Trump will tell them to fuck off and if they keep supporting the Taliban we're gonna bomb the shit out of them. You are completely right about Muslims and Christians. Problem is, though, is that the world is a harsh place and no one cares about complaints, even if India is justified.

If Muslims and Christians are converting then Hindus should raise the money to convert them back, or start cracking some skulls.

Buy a shit ton of electric vehicles and say fuck off to the Arab oil sheiks that come to India to buy virgin girls. One thing that blows my mind is how pro-Islam and anti-Trump so many Indian Americans are.

People care about raw power - political, economic, and military. Indians waste far more time complaining and blaming their Karma then they do asking themselves what they can do to be stronger.

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And you're basing the argument that the demonetization drive is a gimmick on what exactly? Its purpose is to target black money and fill government tax coffers. As you may know, approximately only 1% of India pays federal taxes. Reducing counterfeiting (another Pakistani hobby), being able to track money and making it harder for corruption are all noble goals towards economic development, which incidentally is also how you improve the problem of having a backwards population as I stated in the start of this post.

Look, demonetization makes perfect sense from a policy perspective in terms of getting rid of black money and improving tax collection. But all it is is treating the symptoms, not the underlying cause. If corruption is caused by a low IQ and poor future time orientated population, and low social trust, then changing policy may make a dent, but eventually people will find ways to skirt the system.

I actually wish Modi the best in this. Nothing would make me happier than to see India succeed. But I am getting sick and tired of Indians making excuses instead of holding themselves to higher standards and calling out other Indians for shitty behavior.

[rw95]

^ As far as IQ goes, I'm pretty sure there are no significant IQ differences between the various ethnic groups of India. All Indians genetically are pretty similar to one another, whether Indo-Aryan or Dravidian. As for IQ differences between castes, it is quite possible but I've seen no data confirming or denying this.

Nutrition does play a role in the IQ of a country, as does inbreeding. India is perhaps the most malnourished country in the world. As said elsewhere in this thread, if sub-Saharan Africa was one country, it would be in better shape than India. Though sub-Saharan IQ is quantified at around 67, even hard hereditarians agree that nutrition is depressing African scores. The estimated "pure" sub-Saharan IQ is estimated at 80 when nutrition is optimal, given the average IQ of African Americans at 85 (who are on average ~25% European genetically). India currently scores somewhere in the 82-85 range depending on sources. If we assume malnourishment is deflating Indian scores at least as much as sub-Saharan scores (if not more), we can estimate Indian IQ at approximately 95-97, a figure Russian HBD blogger Anatoly Karlin seems to agree with. Then, of course, there is inbreeding to take into consideration, which leads to depression in IQ as seen throughout the Islamic world. I don't know how inbred Hindus/Buddhists/Jains/Sikhs are, but the large Muslim population in India is certainly not helping things (IQ or otherwise).

Given India's history as well as the things it manages to accomplish today despite its many, many, many problems, I am a strong believer in India's potential. However, they desperately need to get their population proper nutrition, do something about inbreeding, and get Islam under control. I am very pessimistic about any of these things taking place.

[Arado]

(04-21-2017 12:38 PM)rw95 Wrote:  

^ As far as IQ goes, I'm pretty sure there are no significant IQ differences between the various ethnic groups of India. All Indians genetically are pretty similar to one another, whether Indo-Aryan or Dravidian. As for IQ differences between castes, it is quite possible but I've seen no data confirming or denying this.

Nutrition does play a role in the IQ of a country, as does inbreeding. India is perhaps the most malnourished country in the world. As said elsewhere in this thread, if sub-Saharan Africa was one country, it would be in better shape than India. Though sub-Saharan IQ is quantified at around 67, even hard hereditarians agree that nutrition is depressing African scores. The estimated "pure" sub-Saharan IQ is estimated at 80 when nutrition is optimal, given the average IQ of African Americans at 85 (who are on average ~25% European genetically). India currently scores somewhere in the 82-85 range depending on sources. If we assume malnourishment is deflating Indian scores at least as much as sub-Saharan scores (if not more), we can estimate Indian IQ at approximately 95-97, a figure Russian HBD blogger Anatoly Karlin seems to agree with. Then, of course, there is inbreeding to take into consideration, which leads to depression in IQ as seen throughout the Islamic world. I don't know how inbred Hindus/Buddhists/Jains/Sikhs are, but the large Muslim population in India is certainly not helping things (IQ or otherwise).

Given India's history as well as the things it manages to accomplish today despite its many, many, many problems, I am a strong believer in India's potential. However, they desperately need to get their population proper nutrition, do something about inbreeding, and get Islam under control. I am very pessimistic about any of these things taking place.

These are all fair points - honestly I don't think anyone knows, but at the very least, I suspect that the genetic potential is somewhere between 82 and 95.

You bring up Anatoly Karlin. From his blog post here:
http://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-puzzle-of...-and-jews/

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Brahmins occupy a lot of the intellectually demanding positions (I cannot find the source but I recall reading that almost all members of India’s version of the Manhattan Project were composed of Brahmins). A lot of the (super high IQ) US Indian immigrants appear to be Brahmins. Meanwhile Indian immigrants to Britain or those who live as diasporas in sub-Saharan Africans tend to under-perform Anglo whites by about 0.5 S.D.

I would say that is evidence for caste based IQ disparities, no?

Well, what about the fact that India's states have vast disparities in HDI indicators, lower castes still demand affirmative action, Tamilian Brahmins per capita have among the highest scientific output of any group in the entire world, while Uttar Pradesh has barely produced anything. Given the vast differences in genetic heritage between different castes and different parts of India do you really think that they are all the same genetically? Highly unlikely.

Obviously what we need is a large scale 23andme study between different regions and castes, but for now we just have to rely on anecdotal evidence and the few statistics available.

Let's say the genetic potential is around 94, that still brings up issues:
-With current malnutrition levels and poor education system, the next generation of Indians will only have a marginally higher IQ, which will hinder India's growth and efficiency for decades on end. In the meantime in a world with growing nationalist sentiment are we 100% sure that India won't be taken advantage of by stronger powers intent on securing resources for their people? If China wants to build a base in Pakistan or cut off India's water access, there is little that India can do in retaliation.

-Dysgenics is ongoing with no sign of stopping, so the 94 IQ may already be going down at a genotype level.

-Given India's population density and low resource/population ratio, unlike oil countries or African countries, India cannot rely on natural resource exports to power growth. They have to rely totally on human capital. And a population with an average IQ in the low 90's does not have much to offer outside cheap labor, which is quickly being made irrelevant with mass automation.

[Genghis Khan]

(04-23-2017 06:38 AM)Arado Wrote:  

Look, demonetization makes perfect sense from a policy perspective in terms of getting rid of black money and improving tax collection. But all it is is treating the symptoms, not the underlying cause. If corruption is caused by a low IQ and poor future time orientated population, and low social trust, then changing policy may make a dent, but eventually people will find ways to skirt the system.

You seem to not understand the fact that nations are complex feedback systems. This monomania of "muh IQ" of yours is getting tiring. I've addressed your concerns by stating explicitly that India is working towards economic development, something which apparently went over your head or you flat out ignored.

As I mentioned earlier, India has had a tax collection rate of 1%. Increasing this rate would significantly fill India's tax coffers. The central government could use this money for all sorts of economic development plans (as it's actually doing). Demonetisation is simply one of many initiatives the government has taken. Another is the PAN card program:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_account_number

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The primary purpose of the PAN is to bring a universal identification to all financial transactions and to prevent tax evasion by keeping track of monetary transactions, especially those of high-net-worth individuals who can impact the economy.

Demonetisation, PAN cards, other initiatives -> more tax money -> more money to put into economic development -> more money into people's pocket -> more money for better nutrition, healthcare, education -> higher IQs.

You also seem to have a very poor understanding of India. In regards to your corruption comment, if you had been keeping up with developments in India, you might know that the Modi government is pushing hard for Digital India, a campaign to automatically deposit money into people's account.

Demonetisation was part of that campaign, a second purpose being to get people to use digital payments more.

http://indianexpress.com/article/busines...g-4613649/

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As an effect of the Centre demonetising high-value currency notes in November, digital transactions in the country grew about 23 times in March to 63.80 lakh with a value of Rs 2,425 crore, compared with 2,80,000 digital transactions worth Rs 101 crore till November 2016

The end-goal is to cut out the middleman - the government employee who pockets money set aside for development plans, thus significantly reducing corruption issues. One particular way the Indian government is approaching this by use of Aadhaar cards:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aadhaar

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Aadhaar is the world's largest biometric ID system, with over 1.133 billion enrolled members as of 31 March 2017.[3] As of this date, over 99% of Indians aged 18 and above had been enrolled in Aadhaar.[3] World Bank Chief Economist Paul Romer described Aadhar as "the most sophisticated ID programme in world".

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Aadhaar project has been linked to some public subsidy and unemployment benefit schemes like the domestic LPG scheme and MGNREGS. In these Direct Benefit Transfer schemes, the subsidy money is directly transferred to a bank account which is Aadhaar-linked.

From the indianexpress article from above:

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Modi also launched the BHIM-Aadhaar app at Nagpur, and Niti Aayog said that already 27 banks were onboard with 7.15 lakh merchants, which can start using the app to accept payments.
“The aim of Digital India is that if we send Rs 100 from Delhi, the beneficiary should receive the benefit of full Rs 100,” Minister of Electronics and Information Technology Ravi Shankar Prasad said in Nagpur. Modi also asked the IT ministry to work on patenting the BHIM-Aadhaar app.

Now you suddenly have more tax money and a more robust way of distributing money to the poorest people, giving them the financial resources to improve nutrition, better access to healthcare and the ability to send their kids to school. Higher IQs, no?

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-With current malnutrition levels and poor education system, the next generation of Indians will only have a marginally higher IQ, which will hinder India's growth and efficiency for decades on end. In the meantime in a world with growing nationalist sentiment are we 100% sure that India won't be taken advantage of by stronger powers intent on securing resources for their people? If China wants to build a base in Pakistan or cut off India's water access, there is little that India can do in retaliation.

There are so many assumptions in this paragraph. One is that nutrition and education levels will remain. A shockingly ill-informed statement considering the enormous amount of effort the government is putting into raising standards across the board. As for growing nationalist sentiments, India has in the past year retaliated against Pakistan for terrorist insurgencies - something the previous government was reluctant too. One can very easily wonder if growing nationalist sentiments means India won't fuck around. This isn't 1962 anymore, where Indians at large has a naive understanding of geopolitics, shouting 'Hindi Chinni bhai bhai' (Indian Chinese brothers brothers) and were surprised when the Chinese initiated a war. Also, I didn't realize the Communist Party of China shares its geopolitical strategies and concerns with a brown man from the US. You seem very confident China doesn't care about India, yet you have offered no proof.

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Given India's population density and low resource/population ratio, unlike oil countries or African countries, India cannot rely on natural resource exports to power growth. They have to rely totally on human capital. And a population with an average IQ in the low 90's does not have much to offer outside cheap labor, which is quickly being made irrelevant with mass automation.

I think you need a bit more research on India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_re...s_of_India

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India produces 4 fuels, 11 metallic, 52 non-metallic and 22 minor minerals.[3] India's major mineral resources include Coal (4th largest reserves in the world), Iron ore, Manganese ore (7th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[4] Mica, Bauxite (5th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[5] Chromite, Natural gas, Diamonds, Limestone and Thorium (world's largest along coast of Kerala[6] shores). India's oil reserves, found in Bombay High off the coast of Maharashtra, Gujarat, Rajasthan and in eastern Assam meet 25% of the country's demand.

The only reason India hasn't seen a big GDP boost due to natural resource exports is due to old laws and regulations. If the mining regulations are reformed, you could see significant increases in exports.

But regardless, I'm tired of debating with you. You seem absolutely convinced India will remain a shithole. I also read some of your posts on the Trump China thread and there you seem absolutely convinced China will be the next superpower, despite quite a few members stating the unlikeliness of that situation as the Chinese are their own worst enemies. You're welcome to your opinions.

[Genghis Khan]

Recent developments in Indian politics: some people were worried the demonetisation program would have disastrous consequences for the ruling party (the BJP) in local elections. Nothing could be further from the truth:

1. Delhi Elections

The Congress Party is the other large national party. Similar to the Democratic Party in the US, they've been losing across the board. Delhi is currently run by The AAP (Aam Admi Party, "regular Joe Party), with its leader Arvind Kejriwal as the Chief Minister of Delhi. He gained national fame a few years back for his protests against corruption. On the tailcoats of this anti-corruption sentiment, his party won a large number of seats in Delhi 2 years. He's basically a Bernie Sanders, offering free shit without any understanding of economics.

Delhi had elections today.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...329011.cms

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The BJP could be headed for a landslide victory in the Delhi municipal polls+ with two exit polls predicting the party finishing way ahead of the AAP and the Congress with over 200 of the 270 wards where polling was held on Sunday.

Going by the projected figures, the AAP could well be staring at a rout on its home turf, barely two years into its rise to power bagging a staggering 67 of the 70 Assembly seats, while the Congress' attempt to regain ground may come a cropper.

According to the India Today-Axis exit poll, the BJP may bag anything between 202 and 220 seats, while the AAP and the Congress will score something around 23-35 and 19-31 respectively.

2. Uttar Pradesh elections (slightly older news)

One of the largest states in India is Uttar Pradesh, in the north. A veritable shithole, its government has been run by two competing parties alternatively:

The Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) - a party catering towards the Dalits (the lowest/Untouchables caste). Run by Mayawati, a woman, a former teacher, inept, corrupt and mostly focused on building statues of famous Dalits instead of actually building up the state.

The Samajwadi Party (SP) - a socialist party. One of many socialist parties in the nation and unsurprisingly also highly useless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Prad...tion,_2017

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Bharatiya Janata Party (GK: the BJP) won this election by an overwhelming three-quarter majority of 325 seats, despite not projecting a chief ministerial candidate before the election. As part of its election strategy BJP contested under a collective leadership and capitalised mostly on the political clout and 'brand' of its leader, Narendra Modi. In the previous election in 2012, the Samajwadi Party had won a majority and formed government in the leadership of Akhilesh Yadav

To put this into context, compared to the previous election, the BJP gained 265 seats. 202 total are needed for a majority

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In recent years people of Uttar Pradesh and rest of India had given more importance to economic and social development along with development of the people of their caste. Earlier the voters vote went to the party which gives benefits to their caste. Percentage of youths with literacy has increased cast their votes with hopes of jobs, security, good education and good life. Voting in favour of BJP in 2014 elections alternative to Congress due to the promises of development; and hopes of development have increased as people understand it importance.

3. Overall trends

The socialists and liberals are getting routing completely. Support for the BJP is strong across the nation. People want economic development. I fully expect the BJP to win the national election in a landslide again in 2019.

[Arado]

(04-23-2017 05:42 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

You seem to not understand the fact that nations are complex feedback systems. This monomania of "muh IQ" of yours is getting tiring. I've addressed your concerns by stating explicitly that India is working towards economic development, something which apparently went over your head or you flat out ignored.

A lot of Indian people get upset when I bring up the IQ issue because it is a difficult issue to solve and because they never thought about it deeply. Improved nutrition and development will have some impact, but IQ is largely genetic.

The simple fact is that there is not a single case of a country with an average IQ under 90 reaching developed country status that is not completely dependent on resource exports (I know you mention India's resource potential in your post but it's far from enough to have a significant impact when spread out over 1.3 billion people). We have to face this issue honestly and think of whether, in addition to nutrition and better education, the government can also try to encourage smart people to have more children and/or utilize embryo selection to naturally improve the national IQ.

[Marcus187]

(04-30-2017 06:28 AM)Arado Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 05:42 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

You seem to not understand the fact that nations are complex feedback systems. This monomania of "muh IQ" of yours is getting tiring. I've addressed your concerns by stating explicitly that India is working towards economic development, something which apparently went over your head or you flat out ignored.

A lot of Indian people get upset when I bring up the IQ issue because it is a difficult issue to solve and because they never thought about it deeply. Improved nutrition and development will have some impact, but IQ is largely genetic.

The simple fact is that there is not a single case of a country with an average IQ under 90 reaching developed country status that is not completely dependent on resource exports (I know you mention India's resource potential in your post but it's far from enough to have a significant impact when spread out over 1.3 billion people). We have to face this issue honestly and think of whether, in addition to nutrition and better education, the government can also try to encourage smart people to have more children and/or utilize embryo selection to naturally improve the national IQ.

Considering the history of India I don't think the people are dumb by nature. Especially when you consider that their genetics are the same as 5000 years ago, because they didn't mix with outsiders, who were mostly low IQ invaders (Arabs, Central Asian Turkic tribes).

There are places in this world where the population didn't accomplish anything for the past 5000 years. In that case you could make the assumption that the people lack the intelligence and/or drive to progress.

Intelligence is probably 30% genetics and 70% determined by external factors like nutrition, a safe living environment and the chance to develop yourself. You can be blessed with certain talents, but if you don't get the chance to develop yourself, you will never reach your full potential.

[Arado]

Bump. Apparently this story has been making the rounds in the news but I'm very skeptical of the NYT perspective - they always take a negative slant on any news item related to Hindu nationalists. Does anyone have any idea what's going on outside of what the Western media is reporting?

An 8-Year-Old’s Rape and Killing Fuels Religious Tensions in India

Quote:

NEW DELHI — In early January, Asifa Bano, an 8-year-old girl in a purple dress, was grazing her horses in a meadow in northern India. A man beckoned her into a forest. She followed.

According to the police, he grabbed her by the neck and forced her to take sleeping pills. With the help of a friend, they say, he dragged her to a nearby temple and locked her inside.

For the next three days, the police say, the two men and at least one other raped her, again and again. They told investigators that their motive had been to drive Asifa’s nomadic community out of the area. In the end, she was strangled, after one of the men allegedly insisted on raping her one last time.

Days later, Asifa’s crumpled body was found in the forest, in the same purple dress, now smeared with blood.

Eight men have been arrested in connection with the case, and several have confessed, according to the police in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, where the killing took place. Two of the accused are police officers said to have accepted thousands of dollars to cover up the crime. One of the arrested suspects said he was 15, though police officers, based on a medical examination, believe he is at least 19.

It seemed another isolated, horrific episode of sexual violence in India, perpetrated against a powerless girl by brutal men. But in the months since Asifa’s murder, the case has become another battleground in India’s religious wars.

Hindu nationalists have turned it into a rallying cry — not calling for justice for Asifa, but rushing to the defense of the accused. All of the men arrested are Hindu, and Asifa’s nomadic people, the Bakarwals, are Muslim.

Some of the police officers who investigated the case are also Muslim, and for that reason, the Hindu activists say, they cannot be trusted.

This week, a mob of Hindu lawyers physically blocked police officers from entering a courthouse to file charges against the men. The officers retreated to a judge’s house later in the evening to complete the paperwork.

Protests and counterprotests are now spreading. On Wednesday, much of Kathua, a small town in northern India near where Asifa was killed, was shut down by demonstrators, including dozens of Hindu women who helped block a highway and organize a hunger strike.

“They are against our religion,’’ said Bimla Devi, one of the protesters. If the accused men aren’t released, she said, “we will burn ourselves.’’

Police officials say they have physical evidence and DNA tests linking the defendants to Asifa’s death. They also say they have interviewed more than 130 witnesses, who “unequivocally corroborated the facts that emerged.’’

Several prominent members of India’s dominant political force, the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, are pushing to have the case taken out of the hands of the state police, arguing that the Central Bureau of Investigation would be a better, more neutral agency to handle it. Many suspect this is an attempt to win leniency for the accused, noting that the bureau is an arm of the central government, which the Bharatiya Janata Party controls.

That a Hindu temple is at the center of the crime makes this case even more combustible. The police say that Sanji Ram, the temple’s custodian, devised the plan as a way to terrorize the Bakarwals, and that he enlisted a nephew and some friends to kidnap and kill Asifa. The police say the culprits selected Asifa simply because she was by herself and “a soft target.”

For generations, Bakarwal nomads, who drift with their herds across the plains and hills of northern India, have leased pastures from Hindu farmers for their animals to graze in winter. But in recent years, some Hindus in the Kathua area have begun a campaign of abuse against the nomads. Villagers said Mr. Ram was their ringleader.

“His poison has been spreading,’’ said Talib Hussain, a Bakarwal leader. “When I was young, I remember the fear Sanji Ram’s name invoked in Muslim women. If they wanted to scare each other, they would take Sanji Ram’s name, since he was known to misbehave with Bakarwal women.’’

Feelings between the two communities are so bitter that when Asifa didn’t return from the meadow, her parents immediately suspected that something terrible had been done to her.


They enlisted the police and went to the small temple run by Mr. Ram works. He insisted that he had not seen the girl. The temple was locked. According to the police, at that moment Asifa was being starved inside, hidden under a table and some plastic mats.

Mohammad Yusuf Pujwala, Asifa’s father, said his daughter was killed for one reason: to drive the Bakarwals away.

“But we have land here and life here,’’ he said. “This is home for us.’’ He sounded almost too tired to grieve.

He said Asifa had never been to school, even though her brothers had. Her favorite thing to do was play in the meadow.

Not sure what to think about this. From the article, it sounds like the Muslims are completely innocent at the hands of barbaric Hindus, but there must be another side to the story. Horrible stuff that just adds fuel on the fire to the narrative that India is an oppressive backwards country, even though things are far worse for religious minorities in most Muslim countries.

[Bain]

Just discovered this interesting thread. I hope to be visiting Delhi in the next few months. A lot of reading to.

[C-Note]

(04-13-2018 02:01 PM)Arado Wrote:  

Not sure what to think about this. From the article, it sounds like the Muslims are completely innocent at the hands of barbaric Hindus, but there must be another side to the story. Horrible stuff that just adds fuel on the fire to the narrative that India is an oppressive backwards country, even though things are far worse for religious minorities in most Muslim countries.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, most of the local Indian newspapers and news magazines don't put most of their articles available online. When I was in India, I read some of the local English newspapers and was amazed at the apparent level of detail and thoroughness in investigating local corruption. A local friend of mine confirmed to me that local reporting in India is typically very good. So, to get the straight story you'd probably have to get your hands on some local publications or communicate with someone who personally knows the situation in that area. I wouldn't trust the Failing NYTimes reporting, because they have an agenda behind almost everything they report.

[Arado]

(04-18-2018 11:10 AM)C-Note Wrote:  

(04-13-2018 02:01 PM)Arado Wrote:  

Not sure what to think about this. From the article, it sounds like the Muslims are completely innocent at the hands of barbaric Hindus, but there must be another side to the story. Horrible stuff that just adds fuel on the fire to the narrative that India is an oppressive backwards country, even though things are far worse for religious minorities in most Muslim countries.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, most of the local Indian newspapers and news magazines don't put most of their articles available online. When I was in India, I read some of the local English newspapers and was amazed at the apparent level of detail and thoroughness in investigating local corruption. A local friend of mine confirmed to me that local reporting in India is typically very good. So, to get the straight story you'd probably have to get your hands on some local publications or communicate with someone who personally knows the situation in that area. I wouldn't trust the Failing NYTimes reporting, because they have an agenda behind almost everything they report.

I've been reading some of the right-leaning Indian websites as well though and haven't seen anything that presents a different side to the story. Overall just seems like a terrible incident that puts a huge black mark on Indian society.

[Arado]

Hasn't been mentioned anywhere else on the forum. Curious to hear how the Indian guys or anti-neocons on the forum view the Indo-Pak situation since it's blown up in the news again following a recent terrorist attack in Kashmir.

India launches air strike inside Pakistan; Islamabad denies militant camp hit

Quote:

BALAKOT, Pakistan/NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India said its warplanes struck a militant training camp inside Pakistan on Tuesday, killing “a very large number” of fighters, raising risk of conflict between the nuclear armed neighbours although Pakistan officials denied there had been casualties.

Pakistan said it would respond at a time and place of its choice - with a military spokesman even alluding to its nuclear arsenal, highlighting the escalation in hostile rhetoric from both sides since a suicide bombing in Kashmir this month.

The spokesman said a command and control authority meeting, which decides over the use of nuclear weapons, had been convened for Wednesday, adding: “You all know what that means.”

The air strike near the town of Balakot, 50 km (30 miles) from the frontier, was the deepest cross-border raid launched by India since the last of its three wars with Pakistan in 1971 but there were competing claims about the damage it caused.

The Indian government, facing an election in the coming months, said the air strikes hit a training camp belonging to Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), the group that claimed the suicide car bomb attack that killed at least 40 Indian paramilitary police in Kashmir on Feb. 14.

Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale said “a very large number” of militants were killed in the strikes on a Jaish training camp near Balakot, a town in northeast Pakistan.

[SamuelBRoberts]

[url=https://twitter.com/DEFCONWSALERTS/status/1100490456243363840][/url]

Seems like a big deal.

Glad it's not our problem, hopefully.

[Genghis Khan]

(02-26-2019 12:44 PM)Arado Wrote:  

Hasn't been mentioned anywhere else on the forum. Curious to hear how the Indian guys or anti-neocons on the forum view the Indo-Pak situation since it's blown up in the news again following a recent terrorist attack in Kashmir.

India launches air strike inside Pakistan; Islamabad denies militant camp hit

Quote:

BALAKOT, Pakistan/NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India said its warplanes struck a militant training camp inside Pakistan on Tuesday, killing “a very large number” of fighters, raising risk of conflict between the nuclear armed neighbours although Pakistan officials denied there had been casualties.

Pakistan said it would respond at a time and place of its choice - with a military spokesman even alluding to its nuclear arsenal, highlighting the escalation in hostile rhetoric from both sides since a suicide bombing in Kashmir this month.

The spokesman said a command and control authority meeting, which decides over the use of nuclear weapons, had been convened for Wednesday, adding: “You all know what that means.”

The air strike near the town of Balakot, 50 km (30 miles) from the frontier, was the deepest cross-border raid launched by India since the last of its three wars with Pakistan in 1971 but there were competing claims about the damage it caused.

The Indian government, facing an election in the coming months, said the air strikes hit a training camp belonging to Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), the group that claimed the suicide car bomb attack that killed at least 40 Indian paramilitary police in Kashmir on Feb. 14.

Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale said “a very large number” of militants were killed in the strikes on a Jaish training camp near Balakot, a town in northeast Pakistan.

I love the airstrike move. Bitch slapped the fuck out of JeM and completely embarrassed their sponsor Pakistan. You don't give these savages any leeway. They blow up your soldiers, you blow them up.

100% the right call.

I'm seeing consistently patriotic messages across the board in India. There is no division or strife here. And anyone who calls for understanding like a pussy liberal gets completely sacked. Navjot Singh is a good example. Made some slightly positive comments in favor of Pakistan, lost his gig on TV.

I'm mostly excited about the underlying message - which is that India has collectively gained a pair of balls and they're not playing that nonsensical Gandhi-imitating "be nice" game any more. The recent movie Uri re-emphasizes the change in perspective.

There's a subtle cultural change that's hard to pick up unless you pay careful attention. I brought this up in the Indian guys game thread: you can see Indian men becoming more assertive the past 5 years. I saw it first on the cricket field, with the current generation of players, lead by Kohli, being way more aggressive than their predecessors (including even Dhoni) and playing hardcore to win. Bollywood actors today are cut from a different cloth as well.
Both cricket and Bollywood have trickle down effects to the youth.

Anyway, this airstrike might lead to further escalation. Though I don't expect Pakistan to come out on top here. India has been pulling away economically and also getting smarter on the international level. Aligning with the USSR during the Cold War bit India in the ass, while Pakistan sucked up to Americans for some serious aid money.

But global trends are in India's favor as they present a strong bulwark case against China. Something Samuel Huntington pointed out in Clash of Civilizations is that it wouldn't be unlikely for the US, Russia, Japan and India to tag team against China.

If India play their cards well, they might just succeed in making Pakistan a complete international pariah.

I'm mostly concerned about China, Pakistan's sponsor. Though China's already in a shit situation with their economy slowing down and the trade negotiations with the US. So I doubt they'll have the time to intervene. But hey I wouldn't mind if China goes autistic here and they face blow-back too. Fuck both those countries.

Also from a purely political point of view, it's great timing for Modi. He'll win re-election easily in May. Modi has an extremely good shot of going down in history as the best Prime Minister in post-independence India.

[Foolsgo1d]

It will only go nuclear if both sides fear losing too much. Neither side has any inclination to take large swathes of land so it should remain conventional.

[Nater]

I have a question for you guys. What is Mr. Bone Saw (MBS) doing in India?

[Genghis Khan]

shit just got escalated. Reports are coming in that Pakistani F-16s entered Indian air space and one of them has been shot down

[Richard Turpin]

As an Englishman I just hope we have the rare good sense to just stay the fuck out of it. But if things continue to escalate I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the BBC gives us our instructions on which one we're supposed to hate the most.

[SamuelBRoberts]

Is this the first time one nuclear power has launched a bombing raid on another nuclear power? And possibly the first time since the USSR shot down a blackbird that one nuclear power has shot down another's jets?

Of course, we invited lots of Pakistanis and Indians here, so if this conflict does spiral out of control expect lots of nasty fighting on America's streets. Hooray, multiculturalism!

[911]

The biggest casualty of a potential military escalation, after their peoples of course, would be Canada, which has the most exposure to immigration from south Asia and which would be flooded by migrants.

These people need to bury their medieval hatreds and move on, but in this case it looks like Modi is engaging in pre-elections sabre ratling.


The always entertaining Binkov's take on that potential conflict:

[Foolsgo1d]

Canada is on a completely different land mass. If anyone gets fucked its Europe >>If it goes nuclear<< but thats something you can't predict but IMO is unlikely.

The UK has a lot of Indians and Pakistani people too so if it continues I expect violence over here and ofcourse the BBC will not cover it properly.

[CaptainChardonnay]

(02-27-2019 11:47 AM)911 Wrote:  

These people need to bury their medieval hatreds and move on, but in this case it looks like Modi is engaging in pre-elections sabre ratling.

It isn't medieval hatred. The Indians and Pakistanis have been fighting for a very long time up until the present day and the conflict runs very deep due to the genocide and the stories passed down through generations. Some survivors are even alive today to tell their families.

[Genghis Khan]

Quote:

Of course, we invited lots of Pakistanis and Indians here, so if this conflict does spiral out of control expect lots of nasty fighting on America's streets. Hooray, multiculturalism!

Quote:

The biggest casualty of a potential military escalation, after their peoples of course, would be Canada, which has the most exposure to immigration from south Asia and which would be flooded by migrants.

Quote:

Canada is on a completely different land mass. If anyone gets fucked its Europe >>If it goes nuclear<< but thats something you can't predict but IMO is unlikely.

This forum attracts a lot of people who love to discuss and opine, which can be great at times, but also ridiculous when members have no idea what they're talking about.

So to put things in perspective:

India and Pakistan have had skirmishes on and off.

Their last all-out war was in 1999.

There were plenty of Indian/Pakistani immigrants back in 1999 in the US and Canada, and none of them brawled in the streets.

Perhaps not unsurprising as you wouldn't expect your most financially successful migrant group to have that kind of low inhibition and risk their careers.

You also didn't have some weird mass exodus of South Asians to Canada in 1999. This is because military conflicts between the countries have been contained to the Kashmir region (predominantly) instead of troops actually invading each other proper.

So I seriously doubt if this escalates militarily, you're going to see Indians and Pakistanis fighting in the streets of the US or mass booking flights to Canada in 2019.

And if it goes nuclear, it's not Europe that gets fucked. It's everyone. You don't have nuclear war between two countries that approximately consist of ~20% of the world population without it having serious consequences across the world, not just Europe.

Not enough people on this forum that can discuss Indian politics intelligently. I'm out, this thread is just going to be a dumpster fire of useless opinions.

[infowarrior1]

[quote] (04-23-2017 06:38 AM)Arado Wrote:  

[quote='rw95' pid='1555179' dateline='1492796327']
Snip[/quote]

I think you guys will find this enlightening. As to how Western Europe became the way it is today:

Not only the lessening of violence but enabling the increase in national IQ through downward mobility.(Aside from his political views of course)

The downside of the caste system is that it doesn't allow that to happen and requires the upper caste surplus men to marry within the caste. In England due to unique circumstance social mobility bootstrapped the National IQ.


This coupled with differential mortality rates between the classes.

[quote]Quote:

Nor are class boundaries always porous. Social classes often become endogamous castes. This can happen when a social class specializes in "unclean" work, like butchery, preparation of corpses for burial, etc. This was the case with the Burakumin of Japan, the Paekchong of Korea, and the Cagots of France (Frost 2014). Because of their monopoly over a despised occupation, they were free from outside competition and thus had the resources to get married and have enough children to replace themselves. This was not the case with the English lower classes, who faced competition from “surplus” middle-class individuals between the twelfth and nineteenth centuries. Such downward mobility is impossible in caste societies, where “surplus” higher-caste individuals are expected to remain unmarried until they can find an appropriate social situation.

A caste society thus tends to be evolutionarily stagnant. Lower castes in particular tend to preserve mental and behavioral predispositions that would otherwise be removed from the gene pool in a more fluid social environment.

Why did class boundaries remain porous in England? The reason was probably the greater individualism of English society, particularly its expanding middle class. Sons were helped by their parents, but beyond a certain point they were expected to shift for themselves. My mother’s lineage used to be merchants on Fleet Street in London. They were successful and had such large families that they overshot their niche. By the nineteenth century, some of them had fallen to the level of shipbuilding laborers, and it was as such that they came to Canada.[/quote]

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2019/02/...ature.html