[Rhyme or Reason]

Here's the situation.

Bumble bitch. Messages me. We chit chat. I ask for #. She says not till we meet because stalker in her past or some shit. I say ok. (first mistake no doubt).

So I continue to talk to her over the stupid app. Seems like playing into her frame. I say we should meet. She agrees. She then says coffee....which i absolutely hate for a date. But i agree because this bitch is hot.


So far I've been playing by her rules, again which I hate. Going to meet later today and need input on how to rapidly reset the frame so that I'll be the one calling the shots if we ever meet again.

Thoughts?

[Mufasa]

Just reframe it?
When you meet just do your thing man, she's still a girl at the end of the day

[WestIndianArchie]

I'm interested in how other guys would proceed.
I'm interested in what guys see as the easy problem and what the deeper problem is

*subscribed*

WIA

[Rhyme or Reason]

^ Lol, damn WIA I was hoping you'd be the first to throw your hat in the ring and let me know what's up.

[Rawmeo]

Just say no and reframe. A coffee date is shit IMO. The problem is with the lack of frame, not with the date itself.
My guess: since you bought into her frame, she'll show up with a friend. And they'll expect you to pay.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(11-07-2016 01:09 PM)Rawmeo Wrote:  

Just say no and reframe. A coffee date is shit IMO. The problem is with the lack of frame, not with the date itself.
My guess: since you bought into her frame, she'll show up with a friend. And they'll expect you to pay.

I'm asking how to turn this situation around. If I cancel I'm still in the same situation except minus a date.

If she shows up with a friend, I bounce. If she expects me to pay, I bounce. That simple. I will probably go a few minutes early and buy my own coffee and wait for her to approach my table.

The whole coffee date thing is so fucking contrived. It's the worst path to fast intimacy, which is the real problem I have with it. Chicks go into that date knowing they're gonna friend zone the guy. The deeper problem is that I made an exception for this chick.

[TornadoByProxy]

I don't have a problem with coffee like so many other guys. The important thing is to NEVER SIT DOWN.

Buy her a coffee and tell her you want to go look at the xxxxx at the store next door. You walk and talk, then she helps you pick out a xxxxx. Then you go to another store or something. Now you're leading her around and have the frame.

Edit: after your response above. Buy them both coffees and game them as if it were a day game open. Why do guys have such a problem buying a girl they want to fuck a coffee. I buy beggars coffees for fucks sake.

[WestIndianArchie]

(11-07-2016 01:05 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

^ Lol, damn WIA I was hoping you'd be the first to throw your hat in the ring and let me know what's up.

I like to let other folks take a stab at it. I don't actually know if folks are on the same page game-wise.

WIA

[Genghis Khan]

(11-07-2016 01:19 PM)TornadoByProxy Wrote:  

I don't have a problem with coffee like so many other guys. The important thing is to NEVER SIT DOWN.

Buy her a coffee and tell her you want to go look at the xxxxx at the store next door. You walk and talk, then she helps you pick out a xxxxx. Then you go to another store or something. Now you're leading her around and have the frame.

Edit: after your response above. Buy them both coffees and game them as if it were a day game open. Why do guys have such a problem buying a girl they want to fuck a coffee. I buy beggars coffees for fucks sake.

I can confirm this works. Went on a coffee date. Got coffee, walked around town for a bit, chilled on a bench near the river and talked. Then told her we should get drinks. She agreed. After a while, bounced to another venue for drinks. Due to bad logistics on my part, ended the night with a BJ in her car (instead of getting the bang).

I personally prefer 'coffee dates', it lowers a girl's shield - women know what's up when you want to meet at a bar. Doesn't mean you can't shift from coffee shop to a bar though.

I forget what it's called, but PUAs would use this technique of going to multiple venues with a girl in one night. It makes the experience come across as 3-4 dates in one go.

[Rawmeo]

(11-07-2016 01:19 PM)TornadoByProxy Wrote:  

I don't have a problem with coffee like so many other guys. The important thing is to NEVER SIT DOWN.

Buy her a coffee and tell her you want to go look at the xxxxx at the store next door. You walk and talk, then she helps you pick out a xxxxx. Then you go to another store or something. Now you're leading her around and have the frame.

Edit: after your response above. Buy them both coffees and game them as if it were a day game open. Why do guys have such a problem buying a girl they want to fuck a coffee. I buy beggars coffees for fucks sake.

This. Never tried it but seems solid.

[Mufasa]

(11-07-2016 01:15 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

(11-07-2016 01:09 PM)Rawmeo Wrote:  

Just say no and reframe. A coffee date is shit IMO. The problem is with the lack of frame, not with the date itself.
My guess: since you bought into her frame, she'll show up with a friend. And they'll expect you to pay.

I'm asking how to turn this situation around. If I cancel I'm still in the same situation except minus a date.

If she shows up with a friend, I bounce. If she expects me to pay, I bounce. That simple. I will probably go a few minutes early and buy my own coffee and wait for her to approach my table.

The whole coffee date thing is so fucking contrived. It's the worst path to fast intimacy, which is the real problem I have with it. Chicks go into that date knowing they're gonna friend zone the guy. The deeper problem is that I made an exception for this chick.

In swimming theres a saying: "If you have a lane you have a chance."
I feel like both of you are completely wrong with a tint of lack of abundance mentality.

1) She asked you out for coffee I say go. Back in my blue pill days I had a girl ask me out between classes and we went and had lunch and she was totally into me I just was clueless as hell. If she flakes--big surprise.

2) If she shows--you game as usual.

3) If she brings a friend--game them as usual maybe even both of them. IMO this low key could be the best alternative. Now you have a chance to win over the friend and confirm your frame twice on one date.
If they expect you to pay just don't--When that girl asked me out for lunch I didn't pay for her meal. I'm an overly competitive person and bringing a friend makes it interesting. Its obviously an overt attempt for her to display some friend zone shit but problem for her is she doesn't know you and you can still hit it out of the park. Be Barry Bonds: the only way to beat him is to not pitch at him--he can hit all the pitches.

I feel like you're looking for someone to talk you out of this instead of doing what you know you are capable of. You're asking how to turn the situation around and the answer is to just turn it around. If you want a step by step:

If 1: charge it to the game
if 2: you don't pay or you can pay (if she asks me out I try not to pay for her, or I joke about how she set the date up so she's paying. If she bites she pays). Sit next to her, game as usual; cheek kiss at the end. If she doesnt kiss the cheek at the end call her on it and have her do it again. Set up a preferable date later.
If 3: Do not pay and try to get them to pay for you. When they sit down split the double team and sit between them. If they both move--adjust and game. If they stay--game on. If one moves and the other stays--adjust and game.

[Mufasa]

(11-07-2016 01:33 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

I forget what it's called, but PUAs would use this technique of going to multiple venues with a girl in one night. It makes the experience come across as 3-4 dates in one go.

Time Travel

Also Tornado, that coffee & Walk move: brilliant. Can't believe I didn't consider that.

[WestIndianArchie]

The term is time distortion.

Brad P made the walk around date popular, but the concept goes back to old school fast seduction that used NLP and hypnosis technique.

WIA

[ksbms]

(11-07-2016 12:35 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

Here's the situation.

Bumble bitch. Messages me. We chit chat. I ask for #. She says not till we meet because stalker in her past or some shit. I say ok. (first mistake no doubt).

So I continue to talk to her over the stupid app. Seems like playing into her frame. I say we should meet. She agrees. She then says coffee....which i absolutely hate for a date. But i agree because this bitch is hot.


So far I've been playing by her rules, again which I hate. Going to meet later today and need input on how to rapidly reset the frame so that I'll be the one calling the shots if we ever meet again.

Thoughts?

Coffee date? That can be a fantastic opportunity, if done right.

1. Don't do a passive coffee date, e.g., sitting in a noisy cafe.

2. Have a take away coffee and make it an active date - go around some interesting part of town, pop into a museum or whatever you fancy or is cool to see - even a particular outdoor sculpture. So much more opportunity to 'accidentally' touch her, and if she receives it well, escalate with touching but no kissing (unless you don't/can't more than kissing). If you have your place ready, proceed to 3.

3. Pro move: because she doesn't expect it in the slightest (and on the assumption you would live nearby), suggest popping into your place: "hey, I've got this great tea my friend shipped me from Sengal" or whatever you can come up with.

4. Have your pad ready - drawn curtains or blinds so it will give an impression it is evening, not a middle of the day. Put some relaxing music on. Speak slowly, move slowly, breathe slowly. Make her as comfortable as you can.

5. Whatever the excuse was, you may or may not forget to show/serve/display but mix some drinks, preferably sweet - make it her without asking if she'd like some alcoholic drink. Just give it to her. Take some more time, don't rush things. Everything "just happens."

6. You know what do to next.

7. Enjoy the fruit of your labour.

[Gorgiass]

I'd probably tease her for being paranoid "Hey glad you could make it.... [wary look] I hope you didn't bring anything more serious than pepper spray cause you know this coffee shop is a gun free zone."

TBP nailed it, venue change is key in something like this, typical daygame date. First date bang seems highly unlikely given how nervous she is and everything else, would probably just scare the cat even going for it but take it as it comes.

[XXL]

Easiest thing ever. I agree for a coffee. We meet up at cafe, have one coffee to restart the interaction then I take the charge from there and lead whenever I want.

It doesn't matter what I agree to at first or who set the rules over the text/online. In face to face interaction everything changes. I don't know why you are worried about text message exchange it's literally meaningless. If I had to I'd agree to the worst logistical place to meet if that was the only way to get her out. Whatever. It's just means to an end.

You guys pay way too much attention to what girls say to you.

[DonnyGately]

Cancel due to 'work,' or whatever, suggest bar next time when you text her mid-afternoon.

If you hate coffee dates you're not going to do well.

[WestIndianArchie]

(11-07-2016 12:35 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

Here's the situation.

Bumble bitch. Messages me. We chit chat. I ask for #. She says not till we meet because stalker in her past or some shit. I say ok. (first mistake no doubt).

So I continue to talk to her over the stupid app. Seems like playing into her frame. I say we should meet. She agrees. She then says coffee....which i absolutely hate for a date. But i agree because this bitch is hot.


So far I've been playing by her rules, again which I hate. Going to meet later today and need input on how to rapidly reset the frame so that I'll be the one calling the shots if we ever meet again.

Thoughts?

I answered this one way on the blog, but let me actually take a different and faster route.

Overall, I basically agree with the technique of using the "walkabout" date.
I think the key thing aside from the "plot" of your movie is understanding the motivations of your characters and specifically working on her sticking points.

This is a TL DR version of what's on the blog.

The Overarching Problem of Trust

The problem is that she wants TRUST before you can build your attraction into a roaring flame.

As players and new players, we know that trust before high sexual attraction = friend zone

She's setting you up to fail. Even if she doesn't realize it.
A lot of girls don't know their own psychology and self-sabotage.

You have to get out of this double bind.

But you have to get past your ego. Your ego is resisting her dictating the terms.

So at your level of game, i'd suggest
1. Agree to the date
2. You pick the coffee shop
3. Buy her coffee, and share with her a pastry.
- Not because you're trying to be the provider, or you don't want to scare her off because you're cheap - but

BREAKING BREAD builds trust.

Fuck anyone else who tells you different.

She might be bullshitting about the stalker
It's serious to her.

Bitches always tell you who they are, even when they're lying.

4. Have something planned for after the coffee shop, but it has to be "random" to her.

Oh that's a toy store close by
Oh that's a park
Oh that's an ice skating rink
Oh that's a strip club

If she has to suggest a coffee shop, agree readily if they meet your walkabout criteria. But do take the initiative to suggest the one most conducive to you.

5. You're going to have to show that 3rd parties like you.

So charm the fuck out of strangers.
Baristas
Other customers
Kids and old ladies
Gay guys
Whoever

6. Show that you can touch her, but also you can back off. (indeed, you want to be the first to back off- make her self conscious)

You can do this a few ways. But if she opens up in the coffee shop, and the conversation pops, and she's attracted. You always need compliance.

Put on your best English Accent, and offer the chick your arm to loop through. "M'Lady". She'll role play (adopting your frame, complying) but also touching you of her own volition.

Then at some point, make a show of NOT letting her touch you.

"Mayonnaise and french fries? Unhand me woman"

(Break rapport? yes. Builds attraction yes? Not needed at this stage? Typically. But this is also about re-orienting her social calibration. She's warped)

7. You're going to have to show her that if she lets her guard down, it wasn't a mistake.

So If she volunteers something soft, don't try to one up her with your own sad story. What you want in that situation is to seek rapport without trying to add your own bit.

Don't one up her.
Don't solve her problem

Be there with her.

You can even vocalize it - "I'm here with you" - because for bitches - the words they hear are often sometimes more important than the actions you take.

It's a fine line that guys have to deal with. Like "I love you" can make her heart sing, or turn her the the fuck off.

The player knows her mind, follows her behavior, and figures out where to go from there.

That's basically it. Once you establish the trust that she needs, via her impressions and 3rd parties, and the attraction grows, you can sweep her off her feet.

Now if you planned it right, and if you're affable enough, and she's complying - you can get some hanky panky going on behind closed doors.

She will have been swept off her feet - which is the point of the game.

The key to what i'm saying is that you need to work on her mind.
And most of these answers have the right technique, and might work to get you to the end goal, but I want you to do it consciously.

When you know what you're trying to do and why you're trying to do it, it's easier to do it.

WIA

[philosophical_recovery]

WIA is preaching gospel here.

Recently had a date. I almost always do coffee dates unless I get the vibe that I can get her straight to my place. In this case, I judged a no.

She showed up with a very closed body language, standoffish. I read it as bitchy at first. Got the conversation rolling, had a little activity planned at the coffee shop to get things moving.

Bounce, it was beautiful out and walk down to the beach a block away. Get to talking and notice she's shaking. It's chilly, but sunny, so I tell her she's shaking and drape my jacket over her.

She opens up, apologetically, that she just got out of a really long relationship and that she was actually really nervous about being alone around a guy she doesn't know because she hasn't done that in years. Once I had played around with her a bit she was comfortable enough to walk back to my place.

So, coming across really bitchy and standoffish sometimes can SEEM like she is that way, but there could always be something else going on.

Get her talking, and watch the escalation. I read that escalation beyond kissing wouldn't be received well, so I chilled and let it play out afterward.



And I've stopped feeling as much ego about "being in her frame" as I have in the past. I've lost a lot of quality over this in the past because I was unable to give just a little. You have to understand your real limits and where to really draw the line.

[WestIndianArchie]

(11-07-2016 10:04 PM)philosophical_recovery Wrote:  

And I've stopped feeling as much ego about "being in her frame" as I have in the past. I've lost a lot of quality over this in the past because I was unable to give just a little. You have to understand your real limits and where to really draw the line.

I rail against all that "hold frame" nonsense. These are guys just being stubborn.

Frame is how you view the world.

The whole idea of frame came from the NLP/Hypnosis/Speed Seduction era.
And you were saying and doing things that were richly described - and that emphasis on painting pictures with words - that's what got her to leave her frame of reference and join yours.

This is also what makes the internet aspect of game so exciting. You can use her medium to paint pictures in her mind. The way fame works is that she has this idea of what being with a celeb would FEEL like. And she sees it. And she gets the glee of chicks Liking her pics with a guy like that.

He's not doing any head work, *she's* selling herself on the idea.

Better to offer a girl a better way to look at things, than to force your views upon her. There's a lot of anger against women, against the world, and you see lots of "force" plays, deception, and this need to dominate.

Some guys get that to work for them, but they also screen out chicks early on with that nonsense. Calibration.

Give yourself options.

WIA

[Rhyme or Reason]

@WIA, Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.


So this turned out exactly how I expected. It was a disaster. I tried to bounce her out of the coffee shop to check out the local antique stores, and she immediately balked.

Her words:

"I have a policy that I have to stay where people are"

I couldn't believe that shit.

I knew right then and there I was dead in the water. I probably should have walked right then but I indulged her for about 30 minutes before we parted ways.


I haven't been on such a lame date with such a lame bitch in a very long time. She was very obviously insecure, between her body language and the way she kept looking around the room like something was going to jump out at her and kill her or something.


After she balked at the walking, I admit I had no recourse. The conversation was so fucking bland it was painful. I'm pissed off at myself for even going, knowing she was setting me up for failure and I walked right into that trap. I know better and can do better, so this was some bullshit from the word go.


There was no element of excitement to play off of. She kept asking me generic questions, to which I would answer, followed up by "...what about you?"



Super lame, I know. So don't bother reminding me of that. Most of WIAs advice about this scenario is predicated on bouncing her which I failed to do, so there was nowhere to go but down.

I was thinking of messaging her on the app and saying "Let's just be friends" (that's what apparently sent her stalker into a rage) just to be funny but she had already unmatched me, heh.

In summary:

[Suits]

OP, don't focus on this one situation.

Instead, work at becoming so busy being successful that you simply do not have time for a coffee date no matter how hot the girl is.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(11-07-2016 11:18 PM)Suits Wrote:  

OP, don't focus on this one situation.

Instead, work at becoming so busy being successful that you simply do not have time for a coffee date no matter how hot the girl is.

That's just it, Suits. The coffee date is lame as shit and violates my principles in and of itself. So, lesson learned. If the bitch doesn't want to meet on my terms, it's not happening. In other words, trust your gut. It's all academic at this point anyhow.

[WestIndianArchie]

(11-07-2016 11:14 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

So this turned out exactly how I expected. It was a disaster. I tried to bounce her out of the coffee shop to check out the local antique stores, and she immediately balked.

Her words:

"I have a policy that I have to stay where people are"

When you know the ship is sinking, sometimes it feels good to burn it to the ground.

Sounds like her desire for trust and your ability to get it popping were diametrically opposed.

If that happened to me, I'd have to merge my date with what else is going on in the bar - to take the pressure off me to carry the thing, and put it on her.

*pours out some brew*

WIA

[ksbms]

(11-07-2016 11:14 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

@WIA, Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.


So this turned out exactly how I expected. It was a disaster. I tried to bounce her out of the coffee shop to check out the local antique stores, and she immediately balked.

Her words:

"I have a policy that I have to stay where people are"

I couldn't believe that shit.

I knew right then and there I was dead in the water. I probably should have walked right then but I indulged her for about 30 minutes before we parted ways.


I haven't been on such a lame date with such a lame bitch in a very long time. She was very obviously insecure, between her body language and the way she kept looking around the room like something was going to jump out at her and kill her or something.


After she balked at the walking, I admit I had no recourse. The conversation was so fucking bland it was painful. I'm pissed off at myself for even going, knowing she was setting me up for failure and I walked right into that trap. I know better and can do better, so this was some bullshit from the word go.


There was no element of excitement to play off of. She kept asking me generic questions, to which I would answer, followed up by "...what about you?"



Super lame, I know. So don't bother reminding me of that. Most of WIAs advice about this scenario is predicated on bouncing her which I failed to do, so there was nowhere to go but down.

I was thinking of messaging her on the app and saying "Let's just be friends" (that's what apparently sent her stalker into a rage) just to be funny but she had already unmatched me, heh.

In summary:

It's all your fault! You were't charming, engaging, entertaining and funny.