[cool]

Hi,

I'm in the US Army and disillusioned.

I signed a contract for five years of which I've served two already. I'm still in training status, which means I'm not a "permanent party" member. Permanent party means you're a soldier who is qualified in an MOS (military occupational specialty) and is stationed with a deployable unit.

Before you enlist, it's hard to know what military culture is like. I didn't grow up in a military family. My father is conservative politically but has a an anti-government streak in him. When politics come up in conversation, he gets loud. His strong beliefs shaped my beliefs. The patriotism I feel is tempered heavily by a distrust of government.

I disagreed with US war policy prior to enlisting. But my opposition to it has solidified since becoming a soldier. I don't have a lick of interest in helping transform Afghanistan or Iraq into a democracy. Those countries are deeply Islamic, tribal, and corrupt. It will never happen.

I would like to get out of the Army. I'll be 32 in two months. These years are prime years. I don't want to waste them in the Army. I don't want to look back and know that I felt a strong conviction, but didn't do it out of fear.

I avoid posting this on other forums because of replies from white knights and women like "man up and finish your commitment" or "you're a loser, get out of MY Army" or "if you leave, you'll be a homeless jobless bum forever".

I welcome all thoughts.

[DTA]

That's a tough situation to be in. I don't really see an option for you to get out though, short of going AWOL, then being court-martialed when you eventually get caught.

My advice is basically what you said you don't want to hear: suck it up, and finish your three years with an honorable discharge and veteran status. If you consider 32 your 'prime years', then 35 will still be your prime years when you get out, and you'll have the added advantage of not being screwed over FOREVER for being dishonorably discharged or a deserter.

[Luvianka]

Get away from it, man. If you're not happy you won't be a good soldier and you won't move up the ranks.

[Menace]

Since your MOS isn't set in stone is it possible to get into an area where you won't be shipped to a place with no pussy? I don't know what your interests are but it would be smart to try and do shit that would also be useful on the civilian side. Something medical related would be great. I would tough it out but try and view things from a totally different perspective.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Quote:

I disagreed with US war policy prior to enlisting. But my opposition to it has solidified since becoming a soldier. I don't have a lick of interest in helping transform Afghanistan or Iraq into a democracy. Those countries are deeply Islamic, tribal, and corrupt. It will never happen.

Do you or anyone in here really believe that the US is in Iraq or Afghanistan to free them from "tyrans/dictators" and turn them into a democracy? The US doesn't give a damn about Iraq or Afghanistan. They only care about the oil in Iraq and the vast natural resources in Afghanistan and the uber strategic location of that country in central Asia. As did the British Empire and the Soviets before the Americans. And both were bitterly defeated. The US will face a similar fate there as the British Empire and the Red Army did garanteed. Yes these countries are deeply islamic but that's not the problem. That's part of their millenar culture. Tribal I give you that as well, unfortunately. Corrupt again, big time. But so is most country in the world and the US is far from being immune from corruption. These countries will remain in that state for as long as western powers will continue to interfere in their politics and use them as toys.

As to your dilemma, it's a tough call man. Follow your heart. It's your life and you're the only one living it, so don't let anyone tell you what to do with it or how you should live it. Do it your way. Don't get killed for a cause you don't believe in. You're young, you have all your life in front of you, so don't waste it by being killed.

[Dash Global]

The Middle East is fucked up. Insanely Corrupt ant loyal to their religion and ethnic background making legit democracy almost impossible.

You would have to outsource security to people from a violent history and poor background with nothing to lose. Build walls around the main cities, remove all weapons from within the city and have tight security checkpoints entering and exiting the city. Also find people without any religious or ethnic agendas to run the country.

We wont do all this but its the best option outside of giving up and calling it quits.....

[Ajiaco]

The question is, do you have the right to leave? Or is part of the contract that you can't quit? Will they put in jail if you quit?

If so, you gotta make the best of it. Learn a skill or a language. Try to get sent to a base in another country. Soldiers are notorious poon hounds, and some girls are into that sort of thing, even in places like Japan.

What do you see that is so disillusioning? Write about it. When you leave, maybe you can add your voice to the conversation about why all these wars are misguided.

[cool]

(08-06-2011 05:04 PM)DTA Wrote:  

That's a tough situation to be in. I don't really see an option for you to get out though, short of going AWOL, then being court-martialed when you eventually get caught.

I've researched the consequences of AWOL. For financial reasons, the Army doesn't court-martial an initial-entry soldier who's only offense is AWOL. They instead offer a discharge in lieu of court martial, which is an administrative discharge called an "other than honorable" discharge.

Quote:

If you consider 32 your 'prime years', then 35 will still be your prime years when you get out, and you'll have the added advantage of not being screwed over FOREVER for being dishonorably discharged or a deserter.

This is part of the Army's fearmongering. I've looked into this and it's just not true. Soldiers don't get dishonorably discharged for AWOL alone.[/quote]

[vinman]

Check this guy out. Daniel J. Lakemacer. He got out of the military as a conscientious objector. sad his letter to the Department of the Navy. You guys sound like you come from similar backgrounds.

http://warisimmoral.com/application.html

Good luck

[The_CEO]

So you've got 3 years left...

Are there any opportunities to specialize in something interesting during those 3 years that would at least make it worthwhile? Maybe language training?

I knew a guy who felt something like you did, in the Coast Guard. He talked to a doctor repeatedly there until he somehow got an honorable discharge.

[Aliblahba]

Man up and do your time. The OTH discharge will follow you the rest of your life. The best four years of my life were in the Marines. I saw almost a dozen countries during that time. The Army has great duty stations, like Germany and Korea. You're basically getting paid to live abroad and chase pussy. Don't worry about Iraq or Afghanistan. I've been working in both for years and am still alive. It's not as bad as people think.

[mr.pilkington]

If you have been in a training status for two years I can guarantee that you are not a trigger puller. If I had to guess you are probably in the military intelligence field, linguist and analyst are the only jobs open to enlisted soldiers with that much time in a training status. if your concern is deploying, there are entire posts with large MI populations where nobody deploys from(FT Huachuca and FT Belvoir). And lets be honest, if you did deploy it is not like you would be out there raiding houses. You would serve on some super FOB with all the accouterments of home.

As far as going AWOL, it is not correct that the army gives an initial enlistment Soldier an automatic other than honorable discharge. It really depends on the recommendation of the first O6 and in your chain of command and the aggressiveness of the JAG office on your post. I have had six of my Soldiers go AWOL during my career, all of them in their first enlistment and 3 received other than honorable discharges, 1 I was able to keep in the Army and 2 received court martial(1 was given dishonorable discharge and the other received six months and a dishonorable discharge).

If you are in the MI field you at least have a secret clearance which is a license to print money when your commitment is up. I would give a lot of thought before throwing that away.

[Smitty]

You should absolutely not walk away (AWOL). Making that decision now will haunt you for the rest of your life. Find a way to make it work. I know it sucks, but grind it out. Work on things in your private life to make it more enjoyable. Follow the guys on this board and practice your game. You need to have something in your life that you enjoy doing, and you need to have future plans that you look forward to.

Now, that said, I don't know your MOS, but the Army will be downsizing soon and will be looking to separate 1) shitty performers and 2) career fields that are overmanned. You should keep this in mind and jump at the first opportunity to voluntarily separate (long shot, but keep it in mind).

[Aliblahba]

You know what? STFU and do your time. You're "weesh" for even posting shit on the forum. Look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14435854

I'd give my soul to replace any of those that perished in that crash. You're a specific breed now that has heritage since 1775, before the country even became in existence. Freedom isn't free. My grandfathers fought in WWII and never bitched. Quit bitchin' and soldier on.

What will I do tonight? Raise a glass to the fallen in that helo and go to sleep w/ tears in my eyes. Sex excluded.

[Arado]

Use this as an opportunity to gain leadership experience and work on skills that will help you in the private sector.

We are drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq anyway, and in the future I know we'll be more skeptical about sending soldiers abroad for awhile.

[cool]

(08-07-2011 09:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

You know what? STFU and do your time. You're "weesh" for even posting shit on the forum. Look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14435854

I'd give my soul to replace any of those that perished in that crash. You're a specific breed now that has heritage since 1775, before the country even became in existence. Freedom isn't free. My grandfathers fought in WWII and never bitched. Quit bitchin' and soldier on.

What will I do tonight? Raise a glass to the fallen in that helo and go to sleep w/ tears in my eyes. Sex excluded.

We see things differently. Sadly, those guys died for nothing. It's weesh to waste your life following the orders of fools.

[Dash Global]

(08-07-2011 05:39 PM)cool Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

You know what? STFU and do your time. You're "weesh" for even posting shit on the forum. Look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14435854

I'd give my soul to replace any of those that perished in that crash. You're a specific breed now that has heritage since 1775, before the country even became in existence. Freedom isn't free. My grandfathers fought in WWII and never bitched. Quit bitchin' and soldier on.

What will I do tonight? Raise a glass to the fallen in that helo and go to sleep w/ tears in my eyes. Sex excluded.

We see things differently. Sadly, those guys died for nothing. It's weesh to waste your life following the orders of fools.

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Please dont try to state ur opinions as facts. Esp on such a sensitive matter.

Can you imagine Obama dropping bombs on Salt Lake City simply because he didnt like Mormons? There would be a fucking worldwide action taken to remove and bring Obama to justice.

[LostGringo]

@"Cool"; excellent response to the offensive post by ex-Lance Corporal Aliblabah. I spent 8 years in the Marine Corps as an officer and hated almost every minute of it. I had a long commitment due to flight school and I would have separated the day I got my wings if I could have. You've got the balls to put your situation out there and I respect you for that. The military works for some, and not for others. It was a slog for me, and I had one of the best jobs in the service. There are numerous ways to get out of military early - check out the resources available, but be careful as well.

@Shit-for-brains (Aliblahba); why don't you do something useful with your energies - like engaging your congressman about veterans issues? Better yet, why not get your ass over to nearest VA hospital and volunteer. What is really pathetic is questioning a soldier's character while making reference to the tragic loss of the CH-46 with all hands is grossly disrespectful to the memories of those who lost their lives.

[LostGringo]

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 05:39 PM)cool Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

You know what? STFU and do your time. You're "weesh" for even posting shit on the forum. Look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14435854

I'd give my soul to replace any of those that perished in that crash. You're a specific breed now that has heritage since 1775, before the country even became in existence. Freedom isn't free. My grandfathers fought in WWII and never bitched. Quit bitchin' and soldier on.

What will I do tonight? Raise a glass to the fallen in that helo and go to sleep w/ tears in my eyes. Sex excluded.

We see things differently. Sadly, those guys died for nothing. It's weesh to waste your life following the orders of fools.

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Please dont try to state ur opinions as facts. Esp on such a sensitive matter.

Can you imagine Obama dropping bombs on Salt Lake City simply because he didnt like Mormons? There would be a fucking worldwide action taken to remove and bring Obama to justice.

Young Dash, you are beyond annoying. Shut the fuck up and go away.

[Dash Global]

(08-07-2011 09:22 PM)LostGringo Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 05:39 PM)cool Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

You know what? STFU and do your time. You're "weesh" for even posting shit on the forum. Look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14435854

I'd give my soul to replace any of those that perished in that crash. You're a specific breed now that has heritage since 1775, before the country even became in existence. Freedom isn't free. My grandfathers fought in WWII and never bitched. Quit bitchin' and soldier on.

What will I do tonight? Raise a glass to the fallen in that helo and go to sleep w/ tears in my eyes. Sex excluded.

We see things differently. Sadly, those guys died for nothing. It's weesh to waste your life following the orders of fools.

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Please dont try to state ur opinions as facts. Esp on such a sensitive matter.

Can you imagine Obama dropping bombs on Salt Lake City simply because he didnt like Mormons? There would be a fucking worldwide action taken to remove and bring Obama to justice.

Young Dash, you are beyond annoying. Shut the fuck up and go away.

Im not one of your enlisted soldiers brah.

Ever tried taking your own advice?

Join the military and hated every minute of it huh? What you do sign up not knowing wat the fuck the job description was or could be? Or was you just alil whining bitch that wanted to jump ship when shit wasnt to your liking?

Your either dumb as bricks or a fucking coward

[LostGringo]

(08-07-2011 09:28 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:22 PM)LostGringo Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 05:39 PM)cool Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

You know what? STFU and do your time. You're "weesh" for even posting shit on the forum. Look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14435854

I'd give my soul to replace any of those that perished in that crash. You're a specific breed now that has heritage since 1775, before the country even became in existence. Freedom isn't free. My grandfathers fought in WWII and never bitched. Quit bitchin' and soldier on.

What will I do tonight? Raise a glass to the fallen in that helo and go to sleep w/ tears in my eyes. Sex excluded.

We see things differently. Sadly, those guys died for nothing. It's weesh to waste your life following the orders of fools.

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Please dont try to state ur opinions as facts. Esp on such a sensitive matter.

Can you imagine Obama dropping bombs on Salt Lake City simply because he didnt like Mormons? There would be a fucking worldwide action taken to remove and bring Obama to justice.

Young Dash, you are beyond annoying. Shut the fuck up and go away.

Im not one of your enlisted soldiers brah.

Ever tried taking your own advice?

Join the military and hated every minute of it huh? What you do sign up not knowing wat the fuck the job description was or could be? Or was you just alil whining bitch that wanted to jump ship when shit wasnt to your liking?

Your either dumb as bricks or a fucking coward

No, you couldn't have been one of the Marines under my command - you're a fat kid with a big mouth - you wouldn't have made it through basic training. Over and out.

[Dash Global]

(08-07-2011 09:38 PM)LostGringo Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:28 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 09:22 PM)LostGringo Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 05:39 PM)cool Wrote:  

We see things differently. Sadly, those guys died for nothing. It's weesh to waste your life following the orders of fools.

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Please dont try to state ur opinions as facts. Esp on such a sensitive matter.

Can you imagine Obama dropping bombs on Salt Lake City simply because he didnt like Mormons? There would be a fucking worldwide action taken to remove and bring Obama to justice.

Young Dash, you are beyond annoying. Shut the fuck up and go away.

Im not one of your enlisted soldiers brah.

Ever tried taking your own advice?

Join the military and hated every minute of it huh? What you do sign up not knowing wat the fuck the job description was or could be? Or was you just alil whining bitch that wanted to jump ship when shit wasnt to your liking?

Your either dumb as bricks or a fucking coward

Off you go to Korea little boy. Try to lose some weight while your there.

you must dont have kids. trying to play internet daddy i see lmfao

ur a fucking disgrace to our military

some advice though, try to stick to posting stuff of substance and cut out the posts that are solely antagonistic & attempts at insults

now let me stop wasting my energy on you. not even worth one reply, much less three

[blurb]

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Good for you. Now why doesn't America just bring down EVERY SINGLE OTHER DICTATOR and corrupt government left in the world?! Why was Iraq so special while North Korea and Venezuela get nothing? What about Libya's Muammar Gaddafi or why the fuck did the U.S. wait 3 years before doing anything about Bosnian genocide in 1995? Or what about the Rwanda genocide that same year?

I tip my hat off to Aliblahba for his service in the military, but I would think twice before I put my life in the hands of a corrupt American politician. Politicians do not have your best interest. Constituents, voters, lobbyists, and money are what politicians answer to.

Politicians could care less about you. They would use the military to help out an international company at the expense of your life. Do you really want that? Do you want to die in a Godforsaken country with everyone trying to pass it of as honorable death while politicians ultimately did it for ulterior motives? (Vietnam anyone?)

Let's not forget what Macchiavelli wrote about how nations operate:"The end justifies the means." Countries operate the same way people do:Incentives drive behavior. The U.S. has a self-interest in maintaining stability in certain parts of the world because those parts of the world ultimately act like buyers of U.S. goods or can be used by U.S. businesses. That is why nobody gives a fuck about a horrible genocide in the middle of Africa. The U.S. does not have a self-interest in those countries.

Stop shaming the guy into doing something that he feels doesn't want to do anymore. I'd rather have him leave the military than have an unsure, unmotivated, meandering soldier that's supposed to be a confident fighting machine.

[Dash Global]

(08-08-2011 03:16 AM)blurb Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Good for you. Now why doesn't America just bring down EVERY SINGLE OTHER DICTATOR and corrupt government left in the world?! Why was Iraq so special while North Korea and Venezuela get nothing? What about Libya's Muammar Gaddafi or why the fuck did the U.S. wait 3 years before doing anything about Bosnian genocide in 1995? Or what about the Rwanda genocide that same year?

I tip my hat off to Aliblahba for his service in the military, but I would think twice before I put my life in the hands of a corrupt American politician. Politicians do not have your best interest. Constituents, voters, lobbyists, and money are what politicians answer to.

Politicians could care less about you. They would use the military to help out an international company at the expense of your life. Do you really want that? Do you want to die in a Godforsaken country with everyone trying to pass it of as honorable death while politicians ultimately did it for ulterior motives? (Vietnam anyone?)

Let's not forget what Macchiavelli wrote about how nations operate:"The end justifies the means." Countries operate the same way people do:Incentives drive behavior. The U.S. has a self-interest in maintaining stability in certain parts of the world because those parts of the world ultimately act like buyers of U.S. goods or can be used by U.S. businesses. That is why nobody gives a fuck about a horrible genocide in the middle of Africa. The U.S. does not have a self-interest in those countries.

Stop shaming the guy into doing something that he feels doesn't want to do anymore. I'd rather have him leave the military than have an unsure, unmotivated, meandering soldier that's supposed to be a confident fighting machine.

I never said our government was perfect. At the time Iraq was the obvious choice for retribution (Sadam with the UN problems, Invading Kuwait, stories of genocide, ect) after 911 along with the Taliban in Afgh.

All that is irrelevant to what I said and doesnt change the facts which I touched on. Notice I didnt mention anything else, only pointed out where the OP trying to state his opinion as fact.

Here are facts.

1) OP said the soldiers died for nothing

Complete utter bullshit. Tons of Americans and Iraqis would beg to differ.
The correct way to say that is "I believe the soldiers died for nothing"

2) Sadam was tyrant and brutal dictator

3) He was brought to Justice for his crimes

Now to touch on your first point. I think EVERY act of violence, corruption, and oppression should be dealt with in an according manner.

There should a bi-national committee specifically for policing and maintaining peace, freedom, liberty, and justice around the world.

Also in regards to reading comprehension. I never shamed or even mentioned what he should do about his job.

[cool]

(08-08-2011 07:24 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(08-08-2011 03:16 AM)blurb Wrote:  

(08-07-2011 08:42 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

Bullshit, we brought a ruthless dictator to justice aka DEATH.

You realize this dude dropped chemical bombs over entire cities simply because of the peoples ethnic background?

Good for you. Now why doesn't America just bring down EVERY SINGLE OTHER DICTATOR and corrupt government left in the world?! Why was Iraq so special while North Korea and Venezuela get nothing? What about Libya's Muammar Gaddafi or why the fuck did the U.S. wait 3 years before doing anything about Bosnian genocide in 1995? Or what about the Rwanda genocide that same year?

I tip my hat off to Aliblahba for his service in the military, but I would think twice before I put my life in the hands of a corrupt American politician. Politicians do not have your best interest. Constituents, voters, lobbyists, and money are what politicians answer to.

Politicians could care less about you. They would use the military to help out an international company at the expense of your life. Do you really want that? Do you want to die in a Godforsaken country with everyone trying to pass it of as honorable death while politicians ultimately did it for ulterior motives? (Vietnam anyone?)

Let's not forget what Macchiavelli wrote about how nations operate:"The end justifies the means." Countries operate the same way people do:Incentives drive behavior. The U.S. has a self-interest in maintaining stability in certain parts of the world because those parts of the world ultimately act like buyers of U.S. goods or can be used by U.S. businesses. That is why nobody gives a fuck about a horrible genocide in the middle of Africa. The U.S. does not have a self-interest in those countries.

Stop shaming the guy into doing something that he feels doesn't want to do anymore. I'd rather have him leave the military than have an unsure, unmotivated, meandering soldier that's supposed to be a confident fighting machine.

I never said our government was perfect. At the time Iraq was the obvious choice for retribution (Sadam with the UN problems, Invading Kuwait, stories of genocide, ect) after 911 along with the Taliban in Afgh.

All that is irrelevant to what I said and doesnt change the facts which I touched on. Notice I didnt mention anything else, only pointed out where the OP trying to state his opinion as fact.

Here are facts.

1) OP said the soldiers died for nothing

Complete utter bullshit. Tons of Americans and Iraqis would beg to differ.
The correct way to say that is "I believe the soldiers died for nothing"

2) Sadam was tyrant and brutal dictator

3) He was brought to Justice for his crimes

Now to touch on your first point. I think EVERY act of violence, corruption, and oppression should be dealt with in an according manner.

There should a bi-national committee specifically for policing and maintaining peace, freedom, liberty, and justice around the world.

Also in regards to reading comprehension. I never shamed or even mentioned what he should do about his job.

I didn't want this thread to turn political.

I used to think like Dash Global does, that the US has a moral responsibility to police the world. But my thinking has changed.

I like to compare the US intervening in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Libya or god knows where else to a nice guy beta trying to save a ho. Nothing good can come from it.

Those Islamic countries are full of warring tribes with little interest in western secularism. They steal the money we give them to develop their country and ambush our soldiers at every turn.

A ho, in turn, likes fucking badboys, doing drugs, and having bastard children. She takes money from a nice guy while giving him no sex. The more the guy tries to help her, the more ruin she brings into his life.

In both situations, the US and the man reap great pain trying to change something that can't be changed.