[debeguiled]

(12-03-2016 03:32 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(12-03-2016 03:00 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Yeah. We should all take a page from his book on this. He has been saying for weeks now, that the reason he is against being compelled to use certain words is that he has been studying repressive governments for forty years and. . . This is how fascism starts.

A simple powerful argument.

In other words, he's not primarily making the free speech argument that he should have the right to say whatever he wants. Sadly, that defense has been tarred as repressive.

Instead, he's positioning himself as having the moral high ground, comparing his opponents to history's greatest thugs, showing the connections. His story is that he's saving the world from evil despite personal sacrifice (rather than selfishly exercising his speech rights). This is the smart play. Not sure if it will work, but the free speech angle doesn't have a chance.

I believe in addition to taking the moral high ground, he is saying that free speech is not a right to be taken lightly, that it is in fact fundamental to the working of a free society.

He has said that we cannot come to a consensus if we are forced to say things that we don't mean, and that a fascist insistence on forced language leads to a society like the FSU, in which everyone is lying to everyone all the time.

And that freedom of speech, even violence of speech, is the mechanism that keeps us from engaging in physical violence.

[Slim Shady]

I just made sure Mike knew about Prof. Peterson on his Periscope.

Keep tweeting at him to make sure he knows, and hopefully even does a podcast/youtube episode with him.

[Ghost Tiger]

(12-03-2016 02:55 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(12-03-2016 01:42 PM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:  

Conrad Black rings in on the controversy.

That video was a great response by Dr. Peterson. But I found it interesting that he had a lot of difficulty understanding Black's comment that I bolded in red above. Peterson's discussion of this comment takes place at around the 10:48 mark of that video.

Peterson doesn't get it. He doesn't understand what Black means by "inflexible". What Black is talking about is Peterson's avoidance of use of "the powerful weapon of ridicule that is available to him". This is the same criticism I made earlier about Peterson and so me and Lord Black are in agreement (a regular occurrence). The criticism is: Peterson won't use rhetoric. Peterson thinks that only fascists use rhetoric. Peterson has heard Neitzsche's warning to those who hunt monsters.

Friedrich Nietzsche Wrote:

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you

Peterson thinks that using rhetoric is "gazing into the abyss" and that if he does it, the abyss will gaze into him and turn him into the very monster that he hunts... a fascist.

This is a valid fear. But it's just that... fear. What Black lacks is said fear. Black already did his time in prison for bullshit charges (as did I, albeit far less time than Black). Peterson is afraid of going to prison and being held to this Ghandi-style martyrdom path that he has set himself on. Peterson is right to argue with Black on this matter and, in effect, argue with me also. This is a deeply frightening situation Peterson is in right now and he has clearly set himself to follow it to whatever end it takes him to. What we (Black and I) are saying to Peterson is this: man up and have some fun with this... sure it's fucking scary but hey, you're doing it now and anyways... who wants to live forever? If this matter is as important as Peterson says it is (and it is), then it is a hill worth dying on. How old is Peterson again? Come on man... ENJOY THIS! What former jailbirds like me and ol' "Convict" Black are saying is... have a little FUN with it for Christ's sake Peterson! Don't be Ghandi... be Charles "The Hammer" Martel... be Santiago Matamoros... be Muhammad fucking Ali. Use rhetoric. Use ridicule. Use sarcasm. Jesus LOVED to use sarcasm! Take headshots.

Troll these motherfuckers.

I got somethin' to say...

that it's better to burn out...

than to fade away

[TooFineAPoint]

^
GT, we've spoken about this in person but I will extend the conversation to the forum.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Since your initial comments on this topic. I was first in agreement: he has to strike hard and fast, not budge an inch, and mercilessly ridicule and troll his opponents. Persuasion not logic.

Maybe in the pre-Trump era we were right.

But he is somehow gaining public opinion ground by sticking to pure principle and class. I see relatives and acquaintances on my social media feeds that are what I call "soft normal". Meaning they are usually level-headed people but they don't care about politics and can still easily be swayed one way or the other when the cultural pressure is applied.

Their reaction is "finally someone reasonable takes on SJWism without being reactionary". Put aside the ignorance of that wording and look at the effect. These people WANT to be publicly against SJWs, but they are not comfortable with any champions yet. And they certainly want to look intellectual and reasonable (even those who rarely read, can't form a logical argument, and live in a mental cultural ghetto).

Finally, I sent the video (Rogan interviewing JP) to my Dad this weekend.

He's the very definition of a good guy, hard worker, successful, strong marriage and happy family man. He would agree with general principles around here, but any time I talk to him about anything approaching game he gets tremendously uncomfortable and imagines something sinister.

He emailed me 1/3 of the way through watching the video, while he is doing weekend work at his business. Says he doesn't want to have it in the background, he is going to watch the whole thing paying complete attention when he gets home because this is TOO IMPORTANT to ignore.

Could be a sign of the times, more than anything else. Normally I think he would just say "who cares about all this?".

So I propose something slightly different. Surely you are onto something. Someone has to go on the attack, troll, gaze into the abyss. That can be us (or whomever else the audience is). We can provide the air cover for Peterson.

I like two wings of any movement: the radicals and trolls who want to see the world burn, and the principled theorists who now look normal in comparison.

[beta_plus]

(10-24-2016 12:34 PM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:  

More evidence of how retarded U of T students have become:

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!



At first I was thinking:

"Hey, as a 5/8 Scandinavian American how dare you blah blah blah!"

Then I bothered to watch the whole thing.

Thank god. I was afraid Canadians had lost their sense of humor. That video proves that there is still hope.

And I hope it triggers Rick Mercer.

[debeguiled]

@TooFineAPoint

Awesome post. I respect Ghost Tiger's position, I just disagree with it. My experience with political activism is that rhetoric can win an argument, and make you look good in the moment, but that it doesn't have the same lasting power as reason, passion, and forcefulness. The further away you get from your arguments, and into rhetorical lightning bolts, the shallower your persuasion gets, in the sense of creating a lasting change in the listener.

Unfortunately, the rhetorical approach is the way of the world now, and specifically the way of the internet, and so I understand that it is almost impossible to get yourself heard without it.

I think Peterson is doing fine being himself, and it would feel weird to me now if he got more strategic, and less heartfelt and honest. After all, his whole point is to speak the truth as best you can, and modify it when you find errors.

If he got more calculating, it would go against his message.

[scotian]

WE'RE TEACHING UNIVERSITY STUDENTS LIES, interview with Dr Jordan Peterson: http://www.c2cjournal.ca/2016/12/were-te...-peterson/

[Ghost Tiger]

(12-04-2016 01:31 PM)scotian Wrote:  

WE'RE TEACHING UNIVERSITY STUDENTS LIES, interview with Dr Jordan Peterson: http://www.c2cjournal.ca/2016/12/were-te...-peterson/

Rhetoric intensifies. Lord Black of the Sith approves.

[Ghost Tiger]

(12-03-2016 08:32 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

Maybe in the pre-Trump era we were right.

I understand your sentiment, but we're not out of the woods yet. We're still in the pre-Trump era. We have drunk the celebratory drinks and collected our bet winnings (), but our enemies on the left have thrown massive tantrums. The wailing and the gnashing of teeth has not subsided, it has intensified. They have doubled down and now so must we as well. I do think that, because of Peterson's fear of Nietzsche's warning, Peterson is actually incapable of ratcheting up his rhetoric and picking up what Lord Black eloquently described as "the powerful weapon of ridicule". And that's OK. He doesn't have to pick up a weapon. He can be Ghandi. Others who are inspired by his courage will come to his aid and they will be less inclined to pacifism.

(12-03-2016 08:32 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

But he is somehow gaining public opinion ground by sticking to pure principle and class.

True he is, and so did Ghandi. But this is not India and we are not Indians. Canadians respond better to a scrapper. We love a good hockey fight. The single greatest piece of TV that Ezra Levant ever produced when he was running his show "The Source" on Sun TV was the moment he ridiculed enviro-fascists by celebrating Earth Day by committing first-degree lumberjacking and risking the death penalty from Saint Suzuki.

I realize that Peterson is no Ezra, and the world needs all kinds to keep turning. But you have to concede the point that Black and I are making... namely that Peterson would WIDEN his support if he simply turned and yelled, "SAM! FIRE UP THE CHAINSAW!"

(12-04-2016 01:01 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

I think Peterson is doing fine being himself, and it would feel weird to me now if he got more strategic, and less heartfelt and honest. After all, his whole point is to speak the truth as best you can, and modify it when you find errors.

If he got more calculating, it would go against his message.

I think he is doing fine at spreading his message, but the poor guy looks like a dead man walking. I would just like to see him have some Ezra Levant chainsaw fun. I don't want him to get more calculating, I want him to get LESS calculating. I want him to chuck his prescription Adderall in the garbage and GO HARD. But it's ok. I get it. It's not in his nature. It's OK... it may be that there are others who support Dr. Peterson who are more inclined to bring chainsaws to the fight. Not sure who they might be though.

[Laner]

I agree. At this pace, he is bound to lose steam and risk becoming 'that guy'.

What really made this stick out to me was when he was doing a skype interview and that his home is a fucking disaster. Garbage, boxes and food stuff all over the place. This paints a pretty strong picture when his face says that he is tired. I can feel it. Now imagine the same scene, only this time he has a shitlord grin. Suddenly his place is messy because him and some groupies stayed up late trolling and masterminding.

His interview on Joe Rogan was maybe some of the best convincing arguments I have ever heard. He needs to get out there, and like the hockey analogy, drop the gloves and wake your team up. Win or lose, at least the asses are off the bench.

[Ghost Tiger]

Sith Lord Black has responded to Peterson's response. It's long and verbose (vintage Conny), so I'm not posting the entire thing, but I felt compelled to post this excerpt:

Conrad Black Wrote:

For the purposes of this discussion, I will set aside my reservations about the freakishly permutated condition of the contemporary academy. I greatly enjoyed my own university years and emerged from them with three earned degrees in established fields (history and law), and not such bunk as women’s studies (although I pursued that subject informally as best I could)

Honorary RVF membership should be conferred upon Convict Black. Game recognized.