[MMX2010]

Quote:

I understand what you mean, but most people don't get what those terms mean. Witness the general confusion between correlation and causation in the public.

I often ask my students which is more important: correlation or causation. They always say causation, and that's the wrong answer.

Causation creates security in your predictions, because you can finally see the mechanism by which A produces B. But animals (including humans) don't get rewarded for knowing why something works; they get rewarded for behaving successfully, even when they don't know why those behaviors lead to success.

Animals, in particular, never know why anything is successful, because their brain capacity is too low. But animals succeeded all the time by behaving successfully.

So when a human, especially a young human, discovers that two variables are correlated, he should follow whatever the science suggests (at least for awhile), and see what happens.

Quote:

When you say high IQ is a strong predictor of success, you may be right technically, but what people actually hear is "High IQ = success" and infer that low IQ must mean failure. They just filter out the fact that predictions aren't prophesies.

Predictions are prophecies among large sample sizes, but never among individuals. So the very things that science is supposed to enlighten, such as why it's a bad idea to expect "education" to make Blacks equal to Whites, are dismissed because people want to believe that those predictions apply to individuals.

[El Padrone]

NomadBrah, i get your point, but i think a better way of looking at it is to ask, 'who leads the group?' in an authoritarian setting AND 'what systems and institutions are in place'? In a democracy.

Systems are more important than the individual.
Stalin and Hitler ruined whole nations. But no matter how Hillary or Trump may prove to be as President, by the by, America will be fine because of the institutions already in place.

There is no one single truth for the world(and that includes IQ as a predicator of success). I dont know the scientific studies MMX refers to but I really dont.

Success is goals, all other(including morality and IQ), is commentary.

[chicane]

I'm a Mensa member. Yeah, my IQ is in the upper 2%. Seeing the folks here who are going off like SJWs on the subject is disappointing. They brag about being red pill, but when something that hurts their feefees they go nuts.

I don't go around advertising that I'm a Mensa member because the ordinary world reacts worse to that than just being an unapologetic straight white male. But here I am going to speak my mind.

[MMX2010]

Science is a system and an institution. But if people attack or because it's not egalitarian enough, will America continue to be America?

Quote:

I dont know the scientific studies MMX refers to but I really don't.

This isn't rhetorical, so don't ignore it: Why didn't you tell us that you're completely unfamiliar with the scientific consensus on IQ before you gave your opinions?

[El Padrone]

Chicane, big ups on being a Mensa. The whole fracas broke out cos of a minor disagreement, no big deal mano.

Yes, if someone says something against what I with evidence feel is true, I have a duty to speak out because I give a damn.
Some can say I reacted because my feelings were hurt, yeah but so what? I give a damn.

[Cattle Rustler]

(09-11-2016 02:42 PM)chicane Wrote:  

I'm a Mensa member. Yeah, my IQ is in the upper 2%. Seeing the folks here who are going off like SJWs on the subject is disappointing. They brag about being red pill, but when something that hurts their feefees they go nuts.

I don't go around advertising that I'm a Mensa member because the ordinary world reacts worse to that than just being an unapologetic straight white male. But here I am going to speak my mind.

The same could be said of the folks go who to extreme lengths to defend their views.

[debeguiled]

I am adding I.Q. threads to Race Threads and Alpha/Beta/Gamma threads as topics that drive people crazy for no discernible reason.

There is probably a white, alpha, Mensan somewhere who can explain it to me, if I would even get it.

And explain it to David Garrett too, who thought, idealistically, that he was starting a free speech thread.

[MMX2010]

Quote:

Chicane, big ups on being a Mensa. The whole fracas broke out cos of a minor disagreement, no big deal mano.

Yes, if someone says something against what I with evidence feel is true, I have a duty to speak out because I give a damn.
Some can say I reacted because my feelings were hurt, yeah but so what? I give a damn.

That's your interpretation.

My interpretation is that you challenged eighty year's worth of scientific studies (that you're not even familiar with) with an easily-debunked, anti-social argument.

And you justified your behavior by referring to your self-assessment of your own feelings.

These are uncivilized, non-civil behaviors that represent the age-old clash between Cooperative Civilization and Wild, Selfish Barbarism. So it is the opposite of "No big deal mano".

[El Padrone]

MMX, i don't have an IQ score. I took one for fun as a goalless drifter many years back and I aced it. It had no effect on my life. I recall one of the questions to this day. It was about several messages from some Aliens translated into English, so I was to tell the meaning of a word based on that.
It was stupid. But that's IQ tests.

Now this is really personal, what has had an effect in my life is having goals and throwing my all at it. I've achieved more that way. I'll wager and say, based on my trajectory, I'm going to end up as MORE in life than mates without goals though they be Mensa chiefs.
This is not an attack on you or anyone, try it, your IQ is a poor predictor.

I don't need a scientific study. What I need is the TRUTH. What has worked for me? Single minded focus in one direction. That, mano, is truth.

Trump may build a wall to his heart's content, hell he may start killing migrants in search of a better life at the border, that will achieve nothing, but people will still beat all that shit. It'll deter no one. The ultimate truth is human desire. It beats any shitty 'scientific study'.

There's a 'drug war' being waged. Yeah. How's that helping out in the face of motivated traffickers?

Incentives - that is the ultimate science.

[MMX2010]

Debeguiled,

Someone else already explained it. I'll just magnify his explanation by roughly quoting my favorite passage from The Screwtape Letters, "No one who says I'm Just As Good As You believes it: he wouldn't say it if he did. The hot girl doesn't tell the fat girl, I'm Just As Pretty As You. Nor does the bodybuilder tell the wimp, I'm Just As Strong As You. Thus, to declare I'm Just As Good As You reveals a deep sense of inferiority that fools no one, projected onto everyone else."

[SamuelBRoberts]

"This is not an attack on you or anyone, try it, your IQ is a poor predictor. "

You keep saying this, even though you've been told it's wrong. Is there some reason you want to believe it so badly?

[Buck Wild]

Damn this thread went left real quick.

[MMX2010]

Quote:

This is not an attack on you or anyone, try it, your IQ is a poor predictor.

To focus on individual stories is to be anti-scientific.

To arrogantly assume that you can speak about IQ as intelligently as the scientists who study IQ, or as competently as those who've read many IQ studies for years, is to attack science itself.

As America becomes increasingly dependent upon scientific advancement, whatever weakens science weakens America's future.

So your words are definitely an attack on science, and perhaps an attack on America itself.

[SamuelBRoberts]

"Damn this thread went left real quick."

I think it's instructive. The thread is about how one of the most important men in the history of mankind was denied a chance to speak because the truths he tells make people feel bad. It was immediately set upon by a man who wanted to talk about how, despite the fact that he has no training in genetics, no training in statistics, no training in sociology, and to be honest, can barely string together a coherent sentence in the English language, he knows more than JAMES FUCKING WATSON about intelligence.

He's getting the stuffing pounded out of him because this forum is one of very, very few places left in the world where we don't have play along with lies to avoid hurting people's feelings.

Your IQ predicts your net worth. It predicts your health. It predicts your success in life. It is not determinitive, but it predicts these things.

[El Padrone]

Wow! I'm looking at it from the perspective of achievement. I was pretty average, but with work, i became top notch.

If IQ(and its 80 years of 'study') tells me I'm average, but my professional achievements provides evidence that tells me I'm one of the best, which is the truth?

We have to be anonymous for practical reasons but maybe someday I'll provide my LinkedIn profile.

In attracting women, i was a complete bust. But I learnt game and went to work, now I got my pick of shit and stuff.
IQ had nothing to do with it. Shit, I know a not too bright guy(no insult to him, he's my compadre), who attracted chicks I dreamt of before I got game, now we sorta evened off in that.

[MMX2010]

Quote:

Wow! I'm looking at it from the perspective of achievement. I was pretty average, but with work, i became top notch.

If IQ(and its 80 years of 'study') tells me I'm average, but my professional achievements provides evidence that tells me I'm one of the best, which is the truth?

You keep ignoring this, but science isn't meant to be applied to individuals. Nor is one individual's story ever powerful enough to counteract what is learned scientifically.

In shorter words, IT'S NEVER ABOUT YOU.

[MMX2010]

Quote:

Your IQ predicts your net worth. It predicts your health. It predicts your success in life. It is not determinitive, but it predicts these things.

The most recent interesting things I've learned that high IQ predicts are: (1) fewer average sexual partners among men, (2) higher average marital happiness among men, (3) lower average marital happiness among women.

Vox Day astutely explained that high IQ men use their intelligence to create solutions, but high IQ women use their intelligence to shit test men.

[SamuelBRoberts]

Quote:

Wow! I'm looking at it from the perspective of achievement. I was pretty average, but with work, i became top notch.

If IQ(and its 80 years of 'study') tells me I'm average, but my professional achievements provides evidence that tells me I'm one of the best, which is the truth?

We have to be anonymous for practical reasons but maybe someday I'll provide my LinkedIn profile.

In attracting women, i was a complete bust. But I learnt game and went to work, now I got my pick of shit and stuff.
IQ had nothing to do with it. Shit, I know a not too bright guy(no insult to him, he's my compadre), who attracted chicks I dreamt of before I got game, now we sorta evened off in that.

Since you don't know what "predicts" (ProTip: It does not mean "100% correlates) means, and again, you're having a terrible time even typing out simple sentences without grammar errors, I'd be willing to bet some cash that whatever field you've achieved success in, it's not a terribly intellectually demanding one. Which is fine. Not everyone is intelligent. Just because you're not a very bright individual doesn't mean you can't have success in life.

No one in the 100+ year history of IQ research has ever suggested that a higher IQ leads to banging hotter women. You're bringing up a complete irrelevancy because you feel insecure about your IQ. Don't. Relax. You're not smart, and that's fine. Not everyone in this world is smart, and it doesn't mean you can't have a happy or successful life.

But don't think that anyone here is going to tell you lies to boost your self-esteem. That's not what this place is for.

[El Padrone]

SamuelBRoberts, your IQ does not determine your net worth. Your network is a better determinant of your networth.

I've gotten job offers because beyond natural ability, I 'knew people'. The 'phone call' was made, and pronto!

We still have to prove ourselves and deliver results, intelligent analysis, growth, and profitability, but still, technical ability(IQ's surrogate) is a dime a dozen.

Does that make sense?

[wi30]

I unintentionally predicted this thread about 5 hours ago in the 9/11 thread.

(09-11-2016 10:51 AM)wi30 Wrote:  

Dupe. This thread topic comes up every year, and it inevitably turns into a conspiracy debate.

I truly feel for those who lost friends in family in the attacks, but expecting this thread to stay respectful is the equivalent of bringing up race vs. IQ and expecting it to not turn into a race thread.

My brief thoughts on the subject:

1. The average person is fucking retarded, regardless of race.

2. I would bet money that every guy on here has an IQ of at least 115. Most high rep posters are probably in the 130-140 range.

3. Who cares? Intelligence means jack shit if you don't apply it to anything. I used to be smug about being smart when I was younger. I'd take pride in winning obscure arguments. Guess what? That earned me zero dollars and got me zero pussy. The world doesn't owe you shit because you're smart. You have to go out and take it.

[SamuelBRoberts]

"SamuelBRoberts, your IQ does not determine your net worth. Your network is a better determinant of your networth.
I've gotten job offers because beyond natural ability, I 'knew people'. The 'phone call' was made, and pronto!
We still have to prove ourselves and deliver results, intelligent analysis, growth, and profitability, but still, technical ability(IQ's surrogate) is a dime a dozen.
Does that make sense?"

Is this whole argument about how you're too stupid to know what the word "predicts" means?

[debeguiled]

(09-11-2016 03:50 PM)wi30 Wrote:  

I unintentionally predicted this thread about 5 hours ago in the 9/11 thread.

[quote='wi30' pid='1390764' dateline='1473609073']
Dupe. This thread topic comes up every year, and it inevitably turns into a conspiracy debate.

I truly feel for those who lost friends in family in the attacks, but expecting this thread to stay respectful is the equivalent of bringing up race vs. IQ and expecting it to not turn into a race thread.

Shoot, I forgot to include 9/11 threads.

[El Padrone]

Samuel Roberts, i've refrained from using a single insulting term not just here, but in real life, because it achieves nothing and demeans its user(you, whoever the hell you are) not its supposed referent(me).

If you need insults, i assure you I know a few to make your day. But I won't get in the storm drain with you. That is for stray dogs and pigs.

[SamuelBRoberts]

"3. Who cares? Intelligence means jack shit if you don't apply it to anything. I used to be smug about being smart when I was younger. I'd take pride in winning obscure arguments. Guess what? That earned me zero dollars and got me zero pussy. The world doesn't owe you shit because you're smart. You have to go out and take it."

I care, because I hate being forced to lie about things because other people don't want to admit the truth. IQ exists, it's real, and it's obvious to anyone with eyes to see. Who makes a lot of money in life? Doctors, lawyers, CEOs. You think any of those guys have an IQ of under 110? When some stupid kid tries to rob a gun store and gets filled with holes, do you think he had an IQ above 120?

It's similar in a lot of ways to fat acceptance, really. Saying things like, "Mike Tyson may have a low IQ, but he's really good at figuring out where to punch people, so in a way, isn't he intelligent?" is the same as saying, "Real women have curves!" or "Marilyn Monroe was a size 16!" They're lies people tell to make themselves feel better.

I have to put up with this in the real world all the time. I don't want to have to put up with it here.

[Delta]

How infuriating is it that the concept of correlation is not part of standard K-12 curriculum? Understanding what correlation means is absolutely fundamental to properly interpreting scientific findings, yet topics involving correlation (discussed in any capacity, not just this forum) never fail to produce comments from people who clearly don't get it, e.g.:

-"Smoking causes cancer? Bullshit, my 94 year old grandmother smokes a pack a day and she's still alive and kicking!"
-"Obesity is unhealthy? Then tell me why I'm huge and in perfect health, but so many skinny people have high blood pressure!"
-"Women aren't as good at math? I guess all those female Harvard math Ph.D's are just imaginary then!"
-"People of African descent have lower IQs? Are you really telling me Neil DeGrasse Tyson is less intelligent than white trailer trash?"
-"High IQs lead to professional success? Excuse me, I never tested well, but I work my ass off and rake in $300k a year!"
etc.

These comments can even come from college educated people, who either avoided quantitative classes like the plague, or were taught regression as a bunch of complex matrix algebra rather than a concept to be intuitively understood.

It cannot be said enough: A correlation is a group-wide average. Individual exceptions are to be expected, and do nothing to disprove a correlation.