[Rhyme or Reason]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-02/re...es/7682466


Apparently the Philippines have stepped up their anti drug game:

Quote:

People in the slums of Manila are living in fear after new Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte called on police and vigilantes to kill drug suspects.


The ABC recently spent five days in the Philippines, during which time around 50 suspects were killed, mostly while allegedly resisting arrest.

In Tondo, a Manila slum, the ABC visited the family of one man who had been shot by police while in custody.

Roland Resido was arrested at his home, then taken away in handcuffs. He was one of three suspects shot dead in custody by Tondo police on July 6.

Quote:

One month into Mr Duterte's six-year presidency, around 500 drug suspects have been executed. Police are responsible for many of the killings.

One of the very few Filipinos prepared to speak out about the extra-judicial killings is Catholic priest Father Amado Picardal.

"I think there is more to come, because the reign of terror has started. The police are on a killing spree, and so are the vigilante groups," he said.

Quote:

There is no need to directly threaten Tondo's drug suspects with the prospect of being killed if they don't reform — the president is doing that himself at public events.

"Rehab is no longer an option," Mr Duterte told a cheering audience in his home town of Davao City.

"So those of you in your neighbourhood, feel free to call us, the police, or do it yourself if you have a gun. You have my support."

In one rally, Mr Duterte told police in the crowd: "In an arrest, you must overcome the resistance of the criminal. You must really overcome it. And if he fights, and he fights to death, you can kill him ... Then I'll give you a medal."

Any RVFers in the country who can comment on this?

[Cr33pin]

When I was in Davao it was no secret that Duterte had death squads that executed criminals on the spot. But all the Filipino people in Davao loved him.... When he took over as Mayor of the city crime was awful there. He turned it "statistically" into the safest city in the world. Now I suppose he is trying it on a much larger scale.... for better or worse

[El Chinito loco]

(08-03-2016 11:20 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

Any RVFers in the country who can comment on this?

I posted about this before. Duterte cleaned up Davao which has been a peaceful oasis for awhile amongst a muslim shithole region awash in drugs, general crime, and ISIS level terrorism.

He's going to institute the same policies around the Philippines.

There's going to be a lot of bodies hitting the floor before this is over.

I am keen to see what happens 2 years down the road. I said before that the kill 'em all policy DOES work but a country really has to have the stomach for that.

It's highly fucked up from our western point of view but it is effective. A lot of local cartel and corrupt officials turned themselves in during amnesty periods. It is undeniably effective but the western press has been going into apopletic fits over his methods.

Duterte is also mentioned sometimes as the Trump of of the Philippines.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(08-03-2016 11:27 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

I am keen to see what happens 2 years down the road. I said before that the kill 'em all policy DOES work but a country really has to have the stomach for that.

Pinochet, anyone?

I should mention that I found this link on reddit, where of course the comments were an outpouring of sympathy for these cretins. Stomach turning sophistry.

[El Chinito loco]

(08-03-2016 11:30 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 11:27 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

I am keen to see what happens 2 years down the road. I said before that the kill 'em all policy DOES work but a country really has to have the stomach for that.

Pinochet, anyone?

Nah. He's not a fascist. His tenure over Davao proved he's pretty rational. He may be one of the few principled authoritarians out there. It's dangerous to put guys like this in charge but the Philippines literally has nothing to lose by taking this gamble. The country is already fucked up in more ways than one.. might as well gamble on a strongman.

[kaotic]

Thing is, anyone can accuse anyone for selling drugs or being a drug addict and get killed.

I've never visited the area, so I don't know if this really works or people are just living in fear.

Something about cops murdering people doesn't sit right with me - but if it's truly cleaning up the streets then I guess it makes it okay.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(08-03-2016 11:38 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

Thing is, anyone can accuse anyone for selling drugs or being a drug addict and get killed.

I've never visited the area, so I don't know if this really works or people are just living in fear.

Something about cops murdering people doesn't sit right with me - but if it's truly cleaning up the streets then I guess it makes it okay.

That's the thing. Desperate measures do have to be employed in certain scenarios. I'm not advocating a police state. But sometimes you gotta take out the trash, and if the US model of the War on Drugs is any thing to go by, it shows us what doesn't work.

[El Chinito loco]

(08-03-2016 11:38 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

Thing is, anyone can accuse anyone for selling drugs or being a drug addict and get killed.

I've never visited the area, so I don't know if this really works or people are just living in fear.

Something about cops murdering people doesn't sit right with me - but if it's truly cleaning up the streets then I guess it makes it okay.

When we look at it from our first world perspective it's an outright miscarriage of justice and madness.

However, from the street level in dirt poor Philippines where millions off traffickers, kidnappers, and terrorist run free aided by government corruption it's practical.

The Philippines has roughly half the population of the U.S. concentrated in dense cities on islands.

A significant territory are no go areas under islamic state control.

In many ways the Philippines is and always has been on the brink.

[iRONIN]

Freedom is failing because good men can do nothing. When the system fails, the purge will start.

[kaotic]

(08-03-2016 11:45 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 11:38 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

Thing is, anyone can accuse anyone for selling drugs or being a drug addict and get killed.

I've never visited the area, so I don't know if this really works or people are just living in fear.

Something about cops murdering people doesn't sit right with me - but if it's truly cleaning up the streets then I guess it makes it okay.

When we look at it from our first world perspective it's an outright miscarriage of justice and madness.

However, from the street level in dirt poor Philippines where millions off traffickers, kidnappers, and terrorist run free aided by government corruption it's practical.

The Philippines has roughly half the population of the U.S. concentrated in dense cities on islands.

A significant territory are no go areas under islamic state control.

In many ways the Philippines is and always has been on the brink.

When you put it that way, desperate times, comes desperate measures.

[Enigma]

The thing that people don't understand about Duterte is one of the many reasons I've compared him to Trump -- he's a big fan of "truthful hyperbole".

Yes, he is very tough on crime, but a lot of the specific things he says are for effect. For instance, most of the "drug slayings" happen to armed criminals. Most of them are not "executions" or people being "gunned down" randomly in the street. Yes, some are, but that is not their first instinct, despite what the media -- and even Duterte himself -- would suggest.

A lot of people don't realize that the Philippines' gun laws are more comparable to the US, so they're everywhere.

Despite his image, Duterte actually created one of the best rehab centers in the country and has always given drug offenders the opportunity to reform, if they choose to surrender.

But Duterte understands the affect this tough talk has on criminals, especially when it's backed up by decisive action. In the weeks leading up to his inauguration and in the short period of time since, over 100,000+ drug dealers and addicts have turned themselves in.

Compare the few hundred violent criminals killed to the thousands his policies have already helped.

You have to understand that the drug of choice for most addicts in the Philippines is shabu, which is meth. That shit destroys lives, especially in a country that has such a problem with poverty and crime to begin with.

Another problem was the insane, rampant corruption within the Philippines justice system that kept even criminals who were arrested from being effectively punished. Roddy was the city prosecutor before becoming mayor, so he understands this all too well.

This recent documentary on the Discovery Channel goes inside the country's biggest prison and shows how crazy it is. The gangs basically run the prison. (The guy who hosts this show has a massive pair of brass balls, by the way).

One of Duterte's first actions as president was to replace the guards at this same prison with a rotation of the country's elite police units and the Philippine marines. By cleaning up the justice system, you'll be able to actually prosecute criminals in court and bring them to justice, rather than sending them off to summer camp with their friends.

He's also implemented incremental pay increases for both police and military to help deter corruption.

Two of his other early, major actions have been to institute a 911 service through the country, like they already have in Davao, as well as institute a 24-hour complain hotline that citizens can call into to voice their concerns.

Just like Trump, if you look beyond Duterte's public stance on certain issues and into his actions as mayor and his personal life, you see someone who is very kind-hearted and compassionate. He's done a lot for his city and his people beyond just killing criminals.

And most importantly for many Filipinos, he's fair.

Almost as soon as he became president, he started publicly naming specific high-ranking Filipinos who have been connected to corruption. The circle jerking Western SJWs will talk about the "poor" who are targeted by crime slayings, but Dutererte has always been about putting the people first and has never been afraid to go after the elites.

[nomadbrah]

Philippine slums are some of the worst in the world, on level with India and Africa. I don't see how this solves any problems, the problem is overpopulation, sterilization would have been better.

[Enigma]

(08-03-2016 11:45 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 11:38 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

Thing is, anyone can accuse anyone for selling drugs or being a drug addict and get killed.

I've never visited the area, so I don't know if this really works or people are just living in fear.

Something about cops murdering people doesn't sit right with me - but if it's truly cleaning up the streets then I guess it makes it okay.

When we look at it from our first world perspective it's an outright miscarriage of justice and madness.

However, from the street level in dirt poor Philippines where millions off traffickers, kidnappers, and terrorist run free aided by government corruption it's practical.

The Philippines has roughly half the population of the U.S. concentrated in dense cities on islands.

A significant territory are no go areas under islamic state control.

In many ways the Philippines is and always has been on the brink.

One of the funniest things is the way the Filipino news pundits -- whether professional journalists or just someone ranting in the comments section of a news article -- try to compare their country and government to developed European or Asian countries.

You just want to grab them by the shoulders, give them a good shake, and say "your country is fucked up".

Real, actionable solutions are needed, not pie in the sky optimism inspired by modern Western Marxism.

Also, regarding "police state" comments, the US is a much larger police state than Davao or the Philippines is or has ever been. Many people on this board have been to Davao, and I'd be surprised if any of them described it as a police state.

The "strict" laws that some Filipinos may complain of are standard fare for developed countries, like limits on where you can smoke, enforced speed limits, and curfews for selling alcohol.

[Foolsgo1d]

If only they did this in Mexico before the cartels became too big. Same goes for most of SA too.

If you cannot implement birth control you are inevitably going to end up with too many criminals who see nothing to do but commit crime; drugs, murder, etc.

Outright killing of the dregs of society is a good tactic but can lead to all sorts of power plays. Where do you stop once serious criminals are wiped out? What barometer is a death sentence meted out and how often?

Judge Dredd is a tremendous character in fiction but his agenda was the law. I don't think you could trust every cop to be as loyal.

[thoughtgypsy]

What are the risk of local cops using this as an opportunity to continue blood feuds?

What I mean is, let's say one clan, extended family A, pushed out family B from their local business, and bought up their old land. Family B always resents it, and the two families hate each other.

One of the male members of family B joins up the local police force, and "discovers" that family A is involved in the drug trade, their patriarch is killed while "resisting arrest".

Is that a thing of the past already? If not, are there checks in place to stop it, or is it just considered a small price to pay for the bigger picture? Either way, I hope Duterte manages to clean up the country and get rid of the cartels. They deserve everything that's coming to them.

I used to see poor kids selling roses on the side of the street, and later learning that they're owned by the cartels. They take any money the kids earn, and then hook them on rugby (industrial solvents that cause brain damage, addiction, and lower appetites), while letting them starve. I knew there wasn't much I could do to help their situation, so I'd always get part of my meal wrapped up to give to them in case I came across any. It's beyond tragic, and helps put into perspective the evil that Duterte is attempting to dismantle.

[thoughtgypsy]

(08-03-2016 12:10 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

If only they did this in Mexico before the cartels became too big. Same goes for most of SA too.

Assuming the CIA isn't working with the cartels (Sinaloa), and the war on drugs isn't a guise to eliminate the competition.

[Enigma]

By the way, regarding birth control, Duterte public attacked the pope and the Catholic Church -- both during his campaign and after he was elected -- and addressed how they misguide the country. He's vowed to place a strong emphasis on family planning and education, which is something the church has always protested against.

Quote:

Despite strong opposition from the Catholic Church, presumptive President-elect Rodrigo Duterte on Sunday said he would push for family planning, saying the Church’s beliefs were no longer relevant.

“It will do us good. Mas maraming magawa ‘yan, walang kasamaan ‘yan (It will accomplish many things, it won’t do any harm). Ako naman, I said, I am a Christian but I am a realist and we have to do something about overpopulation,” Duterte told reporters.

He said he might offend the religious sector with his statements but he said their “fundamental beliefs do not solve the problem of our country anymore.”

“I take the opposite view; I defy the opinion or the belief of the Church,” he said.

He said the scriptures in the Bible cited by his critics were no longer relevant to society.

“The ideas there (were) written 2000 years ago and it does not relate or find relevance to our society,” he said.
“I don’t give much importance to the spiritual; walang maitutulong iyan, sa totoo lang (It won’t help, to tell you the truth). What you should worry about is how you suffer here on this planet. You do not worry about suffering after you make the exit,” he added.

Earlier, Duterte said that he believes in God but not necessarily in religion.

“The best thing is just to prepare and pray to God when you are alone and in a quiet room,” he said.

“I have this deep and abiding faith in God. But this does not mean that you have to have a religion or follow somebody,” he added.

Duterte said the family planning program of the government is not moving forward because the country’s leaders always refer to the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

“It (family planning) is not moving because the President has referred always to the stand of the Roman Catholic Church,” he said, adding that politicians were afraid.

He said in Davao City, family planning is “vigorously implemented,” where free contraceptives were given.

Duterte also slammed the Catholic Church, particularly bishops who womanize and have luxurious lifestyles.

“If I start (naming) the bishops who got married and have women in their lives, sasabog itong Catholic Church (the Catholic Church will explode),” he said.

He cited the bishops embroiled in a controversy during the Arroyo administration who were reported to have received Mitsubishi Pajeros from the administration.

“Panahon ni Gloria Arroyo, naghingian kayo ng (personal favors)… that is graft and corruption,” he said.

“’Yung mga tao dito sa Pilipinas walang makain, walang medisina (while) you were enjoying the money of the god**** people of the Philippines. P***** i** kayo! ‘Di na kayo nahiya niyan? Tapos kung magsalita kayo, akala niyo kung sino?” he said.
(The Filipinos don’t have anything to eat and have no medicines (while) you were enjoying the money of the god**** people of the Philippines. [expletive] Aren’t you ashamed of yourselves? And who do you think you are when you speak?)

He urged the Catholic Church to have a debate with him and said, “I will lecture until June 29 the sins of the Catholic Church and whether or not you are still relevant,” he said, calling the Church the most “hypocritical institution.”

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/786977/dute...y-planning

[Space Cowboy]

(08-03-2016 11:27 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

It's highly fucked up from our western point of view but it is effective. A lot of local cartel and corrupt officials turned themselves in during amnesty periods. It is undeniably effective but the western press has been going into apopletic fits over his methods.

The liberal (in the classical sense) in me cringes at just about everything that Mr. Duterte has done throughout his career, but having lived in China I know that it is a fatal flaw for Westerners to try to view and understand Asia and the developing world through their western point of view. So I guess all that's left to do is to shrug my shoulders and say "if it works and if the people are happy, c'est la vie"...

[DjembaDjemba]

What's the Philippine people's view of leadership in general?
Does the Philippines have a history of civil disobedience or do its citizens see themselves as one and part of something bigger?

In the Americas and most of Africa civil disobedience is more common than in parts of Asia and Western Europe. Leaders constantly have their legitimacy questioned, and are rarely trusted by the electorate to be given a carte blanche to order murders and executions of suspected drug dealers and criminals.

Foolsgo1 Wrote:

Outright killing of the dregs of society is a good tactic but can lead to all sorts of power plays. Where do you stop once serious criminals are wiped out? What barometer is a death sentence meted out and how often?

How will the state apparatus created to deal with drug dealers and criminals be kept in check and not be turned on political opponents when the next president comes into power, or this one refuses to leave?

Countries in Latin America tried this in the past, with their covert wars against drug dealers and communists. The result was civil conflict, asymmetrical warfare, and the emergence of paramilitary death squads to counter the government's. In places like Jamaica police have a long history of summary executions and zero tolerance for violent drug dealers, the drug dealers in contrast organize themselves and shoot back. The same seems to be the case in modern contemporary Mexico and SA.
Brazil has a long tradition of SWAT teams acting as death squads, yet drug dealers still quite often will fight them to a standstill in the shanties.

Nevertheless history points to an Asian society pulling this off successfully better than their counterparts on this side of the continent.

[Vienna]

Thanks for bringing this to the forum. I had no idea about any of this.

This guy has to have balls made of adamantium to go as hard as he's done during his previous and ongoing political tenures. Undeniably stomach-churning methods, but the alternative is a country sliding ever deeper into crime and hopelessness.

Countries on the brink need functional psychopaths with an instinctive feeling of utilitarianism, like this man, to turn things around. Someone who protects the herd from the wolves by doing the things no one else wants to do.

Imagine a train going at breakneck speed down a track. Chained to the track are 20 people. You stand in front of a lever that, if pulled, re-directs the train down a track where 1 person is chained to a track. You have 10 seconds to act. What would you do?

Impossible choice for many. But to Duterte it's likely a no-brainer.

[hydrogonian]

(08-03-2016 11:25 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

Seriously, where the heck is the American version of this guy?

[Parzival]

Very interesting. This guy takes action. We need someone like this in Germany to purge us from the migrant invasion. Maybe without the killing squats but with the balls to deport them at a large scale or imprison them.

[booshala]

Duterte is doing in PI what Trump supporters think DT will do in the US: i.e. exactly what he promised in his campaign leading up to his election. However, there are way too many checks and balances in the US for shit like this to happen.

Can you imagine if President Trump issued an executive order to "root out Islamic terrorists in mosques" or "forcibly curtail violence associated with BLM"? My guess would be immediate armed resistance in the streets, members of Congress calling for his impeachment, judicial branch getting involved...

[Drazen]

One of my friends from college was just killed in this. Kind of shocking, not sure what to think about it when it hits so close.

[nomadbrah]

(08-03-2016 01:47 PM)Drazen Wrote:  

One of my friends from college was just killed in this. Kind of shocking, not sure what to think about it when it hits so close.

Your college educated friend turned slum drug lord? Sorry to hear, but you got to tell the whole story here.