[mikado]

(07-01-2016 04:30 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

Some months ago there was a case of women, born in Germany by Tunis migrants. Did post it in the migrant invasion topic. After some years she did turn into a radical muslim and did cover full. There was a case of an insult and she went to a court and she did refuse to uncover. The court did call the Islamic scholar to get everything in the lines of Islam and the scholar said she can uncover and she still refused to uncover. Here you have a German born Migrant, that self radicalise, in front of the court even an Islamic scholar said she can uncover and she did not do so.. As said to cover is a cultural thing, not one from the Quran. How to deal with such fanatics?

About segregation. Some public baths already bring in sperate days for men and women because they don't want women to be attacked. Hell I can't rememember one single case where German ever did attack German women in public baths. But since last year you have a lot of those attacks. So now we need Islamic protection rules to protect women from problems that we hadn't without Muslims.

Those radical and fanatic behaviour is a problem. In some way you can transfer it to bodybuilding. Where people that start to train cut every normal social activity and create strange social and eating habits. The more strict they are to themselves, the more fanatic the more self esteem they gain. And then they can look down on those that don't have this discipline. Even when its unnecessary. Same for those Muslims, they become maybe even more fanatic then its even written in the Quran but they don't listen. They feel inside pride and glory when they stand against the society that they consider as weak and dirty. We have to fight this mentality. This is a spiritual war, a cultural one.

You are not totally wrong on this, for sure.
That woman was wrong in my opinion for not uncovering her head in the case of a trial in court. However the cases are not the same with this one. That woman was radicalized, in a process of effectively "betraying" Germany. No wonder she refused to take off her veil since she was already an "outsider" in Germany. The scholar even agreed with the court.

On the other hand the woman in the OP did not do anything of that sort. She is still German, and wants to be on the other side of the courtroom (judge).

Your comment on the bodybuilding however is very spot on.

[Parzival]

(07-01-2016 04:36 PM)mikado Wrote:  

On the other hand the woman in the OP did not do anything of that sort. She is still German, and wants to be on the other side of the courtroom (judge).

I did explain why I consider it dangerous to allow this. Of course people can come to a different conclusion but I tried to make my point as logical as possible why I disagree with this.

[mikado]

I appreciate at least your level of critical thinking. Good discussion so far.

[Parzival]

Even when many will call me a nationalist or even a racist - got that quite a lot in the past - I'm very moderate and liberal. Also I'm open to arguments and everyone comes to a different conclusion from the same facts. What we lack today is to talk with each other. What are the different opinions and how can we find a solution? The SJWs, other fanatics or the ruling political powers don't want that. They want the conflict. The fight because it distracts the people and let them do what they want. All in all muslims and Islam are just a pupped to them like the extrem nationalists and the antifa.

[All or Nothing]

(07-01-2016 03:52 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

Inside Islam I see a fight against modern, more liberal or more western values against the more radical, maybe more traditional form. I'm quite sure most Muslims want to live in peace as well. The issue with Islam is, that it has many different sects or brands, every Iman can release a Fatwa that allows to kill someone. Every crazy lunacy can put his motivation on the Quran. What you are talking about seems like the idea of a more liberal, Euro Islam. The reforms where we all wait to happen but you know what I see? At first after an Islamic terror attack it was - this is not Islam. And now? Islam not even comes up any more. Its like we all did accept that there are terror attacks. Like we all accept that we put no pressure on Muslims to talk about whats going on in the name of their religion.

Some even say, the more liberal Muslims do not direct follow true Islam. Its like Christianity in Europe but the root of Islam is a way more aggressive then Christianity. I know Muslims and so far they are fine people. Still at some point, when you have a certain percentage of them the radical voices rice and then its kind of a group movement. Thats why we have to strike hard against any form of an Islamic uprising. If we can get rid of the radical ones and re shape the origin of Islam into some lighter Islam, then of course a girl with a headscarf is not an issue. But I doubt that you can reshape Islam and if so, I'm not willing to wait till those people come to a sense and until then we are the victims.

The bolded part is what frustrates me. I was paying attention to German news following the Paris attack and it was blatantly obvious that the German government was going out of its way to suppress dissent against Islam. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and beyond the pale.

Suppression of speech also acts as a cover on the pot that is starting to boil. Eventually the conflict will reach a head and ethnically driven violence will break out regardless of how far the German government goes to suppress speech.

This is why I think the United States will probably integrate our Muslim population better in the long term because our First Amendment allows us to openly criticize Islam. The US even had a freakin' draw Muhammed day as a protest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_...ammed_Day. I doubt the German government would ever allow something like this.

This allows inter-ethnic frustrations to be released while simultaneously creating a dialogue about how American culture needs to mutually evolve across ethnic lines in order to properly assimilate people from different cultures.

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I really think more German people need to start getting together to assess Islam as a problem in German and Western society in driving ethnic conflict.

What I see as the root of the problem is Wahhabism and similar sects that espouse and ultra-Orthodox view of the religion and breeds militarism in enforcement of the religion. I don't think the problem is with all of Islam, but the Wahhabi sect of Islam is a serious issue. Tons of terror attacks are linked to Wahhabi mosques.

If the German government can overcome its desire to suppress free speech and we can actually get to a real dialogue about the problems that ultra-orthodox Islam (like Wahhabism) is creating, then we can actually resolve the problem.

I also don't think that it would be impossible for a reform Islam to be created. There are secular Muslims already talking about that issue. It is just a matter of recognizing problems and having open dialogue.

Obviously we cannot reform Islam since we are outsiders to the religion, but we can encourage more secular Muslims who want the Muslim population to assimilate and prosper in Western civilization to work towards developing a reformed version of the religion in order to help the people from their community move towards assimilation.

I would also suggest reading these two posts, since they contain information on what I am talking about with regards to Wahhabism:
thread-56572...pid1337962
thread-56572...pid1330529

I realize I am hyper-focused on Wahhabism, it's just that I think it is more useful to focus on specific problems and work to find a solution rather than to bash an entire religion.