[Parzival]

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/a...r-ist.html

Quote:

   

Freedom of religion enjoys high protection, as declared judge that banning headscarves for Jura Trainees inadmissible. The State of Bavaria could still rely on the judges costume.

It was negotiated in Augsburg's action Aqilah Sandhu, 25, daughter of a Pakistani and a German Catholic. Sandhu is Muslim and wears a headscarf for religious reasons.

After she had passed her first law degree, she was a trainee at the Higher Regional Court (OLG) in Munich. But she got from there the statement that she can't take place at the judges' table as is usual for trainees because of her headscarf during their training at a civilian court. Rather she had to follow the negotiations from the auditorium.

The session management under the supervision of the training judge was not allowed to take by Sandhu unlike any other trainee. Similar conditions were made in 2015 in Berlin another Muslim who eventually renounced the clerkship.

But in Bavaria Sandhu put against the requirements of the Munich Higher Regional Court and complaint. When she was unsuccessful, she complained - and then got right. Because the Augsburg court considers those attacks statement of OLG both in the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom trainee and - because of their limitations imposed - in their education freedom. For these two violations of basic rights, a law was needed.

The Bavarian Justice Minister Winfried Bausback refuses to accept the new twist in the headscarf debate. "We can not leave the result," said the CSU politician after the Administrative Court Augsburg had declared the ban on headscarves for Muslim trainee lawyers in Bavaria inadmissible.

The state government would file an appeal, Bausback announced. "My position is clear: I do not want that trainee lawyers on the bench, wearing a headscarf while procuratorial sitting service or other statutory work."

Because the liberty and law, so Bausback, would all involved legal processes "on the independence, can rely on neutrality and recognizable distance of judges and prosecutors". Are the needs also to trainee teachers take over the completion of their education after the first legal exam in prosecutors and courts statutory tasks under supervision.

A muslim law student want to wear a hijab but get rejected to serve in the court. She sues the state of Bavaria and win because of freedom of religion - and the court also said there is no law that forbid a hijab or similar things. The state of Bavaria, that was sued, can only call on the dress code or has to create a certain law.
Imagine you stand in a court in your own country, its always a bad situation when they should judge over you but then you see her and think, hopefully she will not yell allah akkbar and blow herself up. Maybe she is a good law student and will be a fair judge but still, see her in a court and rule is the ultimate sign of islamisation and the will to conquer of Islam.

[kaotic]

(06-30-2016 05:40 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

Maybe she is a good law student and will be a fair judge but still, see her in a court and rule is the ultimate sign of islamisation and the will to conquer of Islam.

She might be good, but she sure as hell as a ton bias and it's pretty obvious the tone of her future will be.

[Kona]

Jesus that was hard to read...

So the lady wears the headscarf, and the court doesn't want her to?

Do the catholics get to wear crosses, or are all religious things banned?

Is the op's concern here that he is not only going to be convicted of a crime, but that the judge is then going to blow herself and the courtroom up afterwords?

Please clarify.

Aloha!

[Parzival]

I think she will not blow herself up, but it is strange to have a judge that wear a headscarf. And maybe in the future I will be convicted of a crime because I don't support unregulated mass immigration.

[Glaucon]

The fact that she adamant wearing that thing shows she is a cunt and will betray Germany.

[PowerGame]

Anyways, law is dead here. They only spend resources to punish children for insulting their teacher on Facebook.

While the clearance rate of reported crimes goes down and the official and correct statistics Germany was known for get abused more and more , who cares that people stop reporting them?
Burglary clearance fell under 1%.

She will be good in jailing "islamophobics".

I'm still surprised that "independent" women and gays still use that word next to sexist and homophobic or racist. The Muslims do more crimes than the eastern europes who are just for vacation in Germany.

We will see how they shout for men like me when they get hit by some stones.


You see how free she was in choosing to not be Catholic, but a hijab wearing Muslim.

That tactic is one of the ways of jihad. The secret pseudo integration. When they got enough power they need to bleed to leave.

[mikado]

I get all the hate against Islam on this forum but seriously did we reach a new low where whenever wants to practice his/her islamic faith then they are potential terrorist and want to betray the western country they are living in (and probably have been living since their birth)?

For God's sake this woman did not call for a special seat in court or any priviledge over the other students, just to be left the fuck alone and practice both her faith and law.

[cubanlinx]

@mikado, I was born a Muslim. In times of crisis, one is forced to come to broad brush conclusions.
Yes, she MIGHT mean no harm.
She MIGHT want to live peacefully and pass fair judgements.

But at Crunch time, MIGHT doesn't cut it.

On this forum, I read all the "nuke Mecca" posts and the posts that demand a complete halt in Islamic immigration and at least to a small extent, I concur why people say these things.

This is despite me not having left Islam yet, and having never, ever personally known a Muslim with radical thoughts.

There is no "hate" in the direct sense against Islam on the forum. Merely realism.

Besides, Hate is a human right.

[Parzival]

I see the districts in cities all over Europe, where Muslims can practice their faith...

Yes, most of them are peaceful, nice people and do no harm. Still their number rise and things change and for many people include me not in a positive way. Muslims those that integrate the worst, have the lowest education, the lowest jobs and create the most trouble. In my town we have many Chinese and Indian people, I don't think they adapt all customs of Germany nor will they ever do so. But I don't see them turn complete districts in a mess. I'm quite sure when you even have 10 % Chinese population in a society they create less trouble then the 5 % of muslims we have now.

[mikado]

I get what both of you are saying. And this is why I refrain usually from commenting on this subforum about Islam. And I also get the "my house, my rules" that Roosh has here which makes him allow those types of comments to be held without any repercussion whatsoever (including "nuke Mecca" and "ban them all from here" posts)

However we are not talking about an immigrant in a low job, someone who asks for prayers room being mandatory at work, halal food be served at work etc. This is a GERMAN girl, with German ascendance, in LAW, who did not ask for a prayer room or affirmative action or help being promoted over her classmates. I mean, if she asked for indulgence for Muslims or something like that I would understand.

Like Kona said, there is an immediate assumption that if someone wants to behave in a certain way that fits their religion (Islam), even if it means taking a mesure that does not have ANY impact whatsoever on others (unlike making Halal food in work restaurants, or dedicating prayer rooms), then they are not integrated, potential terrorists and betrayers.

Let this girl just do what she is good at (law). Until it is PROVED she discriminates attendants/defendants based on their religion. Maybe one day she will save one of you's ass when he is divorce raped or any shit like that.

[Parzival]

I get your point and normal I would agree. Innocent till proven guilty, freedom of expression and religion. Also on a personal level I don't live in a bad area so there is no fear that the way how I live or my cultural customs get wiped out soon. If so then mainly because young people do not participate in them. Anyway, what you say goes in this tolerance line and its very tricky. What I see and feel with Islam - not every Muslim - is those little things. There one muslim claims this right or piece of tolerance somewhere else another one. And then at the end out of tolerance and look away complete places turn. Now she is just one girl, what will be when you have in the future 5, 10 or 15 % of muslim judges?
Societies are fluent, they change all the time but how will they change when a certain minority get bigger and bigger until they realise, hey we are not a few, we are quite a lot?

Also, in a court there the judges should be neutral, like teacher or anyone that work in a job like this or anything official.

[hydrogonian]

(07-01-2016 10:43 AM)mikado Wrote:  

I get all the hate against Islam on this forum but seriously did we reach a new low where whenever wants to practice his/her islamic faith then they are potential terrorist and want to betray the western country they are living in (and probably have been living since their birth)?

For God's sake this woman did not call for a special seat in court or any priviledge over the other students, just to be left the fuck alone and practice both her faith and law.

Minimizing the issue to one of "faith" and "freedom of religion" is, in the context of the larger social conversation, an anti-European weasel strategy designed only to create large hostile minorities in the West

The American concept of religious freedom was enacted specifically within the context of only the Christian sphere. It was designed to allow newer Christian political groups to exist, and to offer them legal protections. It works specifically for the Christian sphere because Christianity lacks an imperialist eschatology. Thus, the only Christian groups that seek any type of theocracy are small and marginalized. The religious freedom protection just so happens to work for non-Christian faiths that are similarly relatively non-political, and they do not work specifically for politically imperialist (theocratic) groups.

Cutting short any rambling further explanation, I'll get to the point:

Applying freedom of religion legal doctrines to all religions is not tenable.

The proof is easy:

if a religion holds that certain people must be killed, is it reasonable that they be allowed freedom to practice just because they assigned an invisible skygod to their belief in justifiable extrajudicial murder?

Yes or no?

If no, then we've arrived at the logic that there are specific instances of belief that cannot be allowed to thrive under religious freedom protections.

Now the only thing left to do is to decide what belief systems cannot be allowed freedom to practice under freedom of religion protections. As of now, the liberal media excuses all religions under freedom of religion protections only to reduce the demographics and political power specifically of majority religious groups (and majority populations in general).

Islam believes in death for gay people and infidels to include polytheists, which Christians are to them.

Yet the media machine ignores this ugly truth and protects them, yet they would drive any members of an equivalent "white" religion to be unemployable. Why?

Population war.

In the nations from where these people come they tend to be the dominant religion, and are specifically intolerant to other religions. Yet, they are protected by tolerance here. It's unreasonable, as without exception in every nation where they are allowed to take an inch they eventually corrupt the legal system with their religious statutes if they don't create an outright theocracy. It's never been any other way with them, and thus this has to be viewed as their overall effect when allowed to thrive unchecked.

They aren't a normal "faith". They are an imperialist political force and must always be treated as such.

[mikado]

(07-01-2016 12:14 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

It's unreasonable, as without exception in every nation where they are allowed to take an inch they eventually corrupt the legal system with their religious statutes if they don't create an outright theocracy. It's never been any other way with them, and thus this has to be viewed as their overall effect when allowed to thrive unchecked.

They aren't a normal "faith". They are an imperialist political force and must always be treated as such.

You are making the assumption that every person who declares himself/herself of Islam religion has imperialist motives and wants to impose his/her point of view to others, and will react exactly the same as another Muslim.

First, Muslims are not limited to Middle East or African origin. You have also many Muslims of European/American etc origin. You are applying the same prism to all Muslims whereas the culture of , say, someone who was born and raised in Europe will completely be completely different of the culture of someone of American origin. Someone who is caucasian or raised in Europe and extremely progressive can still be Muslim. Yet they are ASSUMED to behave exactly the same as an immigrant who comes from Somalia??

An example: in Senegal women can wear veils or choose not to. There is zero issue about it. Yet if they did this in Saudi Arabia they would be chastized and maybe beaten for it. If anyone tried to impose veils to women in Senegal they would be strongly fought against because we are a laic country where animists and christians have a place (even with 95% muslims).

Why is it like that in Senegal? Simple: because people unite mostly over the senegalese culture, not the religion. The country has been under many influences such as Arabs, Portuguese, French, English, etc however everyone will gladly sit around a bowl of Thiebou Dieune (rice and fish) and drink bissap juice, whatever his religion/ethnicity is.

The culture shapes the way you practice your religion. This girl is from German culture, has a German mother and even if we don't have many clues about her personal life no one can say she might "betray" her country.

The main way of thinking of this forum seems to be that it is Islam first, then the country second. This might hold for Saudi Arabia but it does not for western civilization. Practically all muslims I know who are in France, whether they come from Africa or France itself, drink, fuck, consume exactly like people of European origin or others who are not Muslim (me included). Yes it is forbidden and we are comitting a sin. However, we still do it. Are we a danger for France? I don't think so.

Instead of calling out to a ban of Islam, I think the option should be a call for a Islam of France/America/whatever Western country. A country where you can sing La Marseillaise and wear a revealing dress, yet pray and listen to Quran if you want. Embrace your origins from another country/continent if you want it, yet also acknowledge the traditions and culture of France for example, its historic leaders, its terroir, its churches etc, and occasionally bond with people of another religion over a good Boeuf bourguignon or a chorba.
Maybe that's not "authentic" Islam but hey, current christianism isn't "authentic" anymore neither.

The road to that passes through the refusal of ILLEGAL immigration, the selection of the best LEGAL immigrants, adressing the real issues like people asking for a prayer room at work or cancelling nativity scenes (in France for example some mayors did it. I think it is not OK, crèches should be preserved since they are part of french history and Muslims can delay the midday prayer for until they come back at home). Call me naive but I think those are simple things that could make a big difference and strengthen the French identity (for example).

[PowerGame]

Well there is a point.. one big threat is that the imams are paid by turkey or Saudi Arabia and educated there and never speak the host's language.

But still, the positive effects of humanity or culture don't negate the negative effects of Islam.

And I used host because intelligent, social and human individuals are not the parasites most people here talk about. But if they associate or defend it, they are not better.
The real enemies are the Europeans who welcome this behavior and help it grow.

Another context is that the race or religion wars are wanted by the elite. When it happens, also the normal Muslims need to choose a side. And many of them will not choose their host country, because they don't care about it only about themselves, that makes it easier to choose family and their lost culture . And about what do fanatic Muslims care? About Islam.

Minorities always ruled and for a long time will rule the world. Do you think every German was a Nazi? They weren't, but the whole world saw them as Nazis and murdered them as Nazis, because it's easier. Small groups take over everything.
Some people with belief, doesn't matter if it's religious or not, are a lot more powerful than many lethargic brainwashed hedonists.

And to add :being a drunk drug user doesn't make you European. The hedonistic university lifestyle doesn't make you open minded or cultured.
And being a drunk,drug using, prostitution seeking, self hating guy didn't make my former friend not choosing brotherhood in a religious apartment complex and sympathizing with isis and suddenly becoming religious. Although always hating his religious father. And never feeling to have an identity. He only had 'open minded', European, hedonistic friends, but still chose to not be a part of this world, to hate it instead of hating himself. To forgive himself in his fanatic ideas.

[hydrogonian]

(07-01-2016 01:01 PM)mikado Wrote:  

You are making the assumption that every person who declares himself/herself of Islam religion has imperialist motives and wants to impose his/her point of view to others, and will react exactly the same as another Muslim.

It makes absolutely no difference. Those precepts that you mention are at the core of the belief system. The special snowflake others are irrelevant, similar to how no one makes exceptions for nazis who don't want to kill people or be imperialist. The belief system is what matters, not the individuals who decide to mod it.

Quote:

First, Muslims are not limited to Middle East or African origin. You have also many Muslims of European/American etc origin. You are applying the same prism to all Muslims whereas the culture of , say, someone who was born and raised in Europe will completely be completely different of the culture of someone of American origin. Someone who is caucasian or raised in Europe and extremely progressive can still be Muslim. Yet they are ASSUMED to behave exactly the same as an immigrant who comes from Somalia??

The belief system is the same, and is directly responsible for too much death, war, and political upheaval even in the modern day but also historically, to be tenable as a sleeper community in the West. Its always harboring the tendency to get out of control, and most often does once a demographic tipping point is reached.

Quote:

An example: in Senegal women can wear veils or choose not to. There is zero issue about it. Yet if they did this in Saudi Arabia they would be chastized and maybe beaten for it. If anyone tried to impose veils to women in Senegal they would be strongly fought against because we are a laic country where animists and christians have a place (even with 95% muslims).

These are quibbles that are irrelevant to how the West needs to judge the core doctrine.

Quote:

Why is it like that in Senegal? Simple: because people unite mostly over the senegalese culture, not the religion. The country has been under many influences such as Arabs, Portuguese, French, English, etc however everyone will gladly sit around a bowl of Thiebou Dieune (rice and fish) and drink bissap juice, whatever his religion/ethnicity is.

I don't care what they eat.

Quote:

The culture shapes the way you practice your religion. This girl is from German culture, has a German mother and even if we don't have many clues about her personal life no one can say she might "betray" her country.

Sure they can. Islam is not German culture.

Quote:

The main way of thinking of this forum seems to be that it is Islam first, then the country second. This might hold for Saudi Arabia but it does not for western civilization.

We'll see. Its causing enough trouble as the numbers even reach a moderate level. There is no precedent for how Islam acts in Western civilization once these numbers are reached. There is a precedent in the rest of the world.

Quote:

Practically all muslims I know who are in France, whether they come from Africa or France itself, drink, fuck, consume exactly like people of European origin or others who are not Muslim (me included). Yes it is forbidden and we are comitting a sin. However, we still do it. Are we a danger for France? I don't think so.

That's for the non-Muslim French to decide. And, no, people from the rest of the world do not act like the French statistically speaking.

Quote:

Instead of calling out to a ban of Islam, I think the option should be a call for a Islam of France/America/whatever Western country. A country where you can sing La Marseillaise and wear a revealing dress, yet pray and listen to Quran if you want. Embrace your origins from another country/continent if you want it, yet also acknowledge the traditions and culture of France for example, its historic leaders, its terroir, its churches etc, and occasionally bond with people of another religion over a good Boeuf bourguignon or a chorba.

Your asking for a lot of tolerance and trust that Islam has not historically earned, nor earned in the present.

Quote:

Maybe that's not "authentic" Islam but hey, current christianism isn't "authentic" anymore neither.

Christianity doesn't need mods to blend in as functional in Western society. It's authentic version blends in fine, and your broad stroke characterization of "authentic Christianity" is impossible to state.

Quote:

The road to that passes through the refusal of ILLEGAL immigration, the selection of the best LEGAL immigrants, adressing the real issues like people asking for a prayer room at work or cancelling nativity scenes (in France for example some mayors did it. I think it is not OK, crèches should be preserved since they are part of french history and Muslims can delay the midday prayer for until they come back at home). Call me naive but I think those are simple things that could make a big difference and strengthen the French identity (for example).

Have you ever asked yourself why Europeans should have a mandate to accommodate you? It's their nation and their culture. You have your own nations and your own cultures. Why would you feel the need to live in proximity to the French? What is it about them that is so attractive to Islam, that Arab and African Muslims cannot procure or build for themselves? Why the necessity for proximity to non-Muslim Europeans? What is it about them? Your entitlement for multiculturalism is a dangerous experiment that may not work out. Do you not read your European history? And I'm not merely talking about the 20th century. It's as close to poking a Lion with a stick, on the geopolitical level, that I can imagine. Keep rationalizing, but the entitlement is madly foolhardy in my opinion.

[mikado]

I am on my phone so I don't have time to adress all your points (I will) but about this

"Why would you feel the need to live in proximity to the French? What is it about them that is so attractive to Islam, that Arab and African Muslims cannot procure or build for themselves? Why the necessity for proximity to non-Muslim Europeans? What is it about them?"

The problem is that many of the Muslims you are talking about are French. Born, raised here. Or got naturalized. Maybe some people in the manosphere (not necessarily you, I don't really know you) would like to send them to the country of origin of their parents, or call them treators, parasite, or anything you can think of, but those people ARE FRENCH, whether you like it or not.

And since the majority of France is Non-Muslim people, of course they will want to mingle with those. It is NOT entitlement to want to get closer to people you are living with. I am sure members on this very forum who immigrate to Asia also make efforts to integrate to the local population. Would you call them entitled for that??

Whether you like it or not, Islam will stay in the West. You can bomb Mecca or whatever shit is preached here, but the religion will stay. On the other hand, reinforcing the attachment to French culture in Muslims here can and will lessen the influence of the Salafist predicators and terrorists. Maybe you haven't been living close to enough Muslims (at least the younger generation) but after a long exposure to western values most of them tend to practice the religion very loosely, since they find it too hard to follow the restriction like the prohibition of fucking outside marriage, wearing veil and prohibition of drinking.

Anyway I propose you to continue this via PM, if we are derailing the thread.

[All or Nothing]

(07-01-2016 12:14 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

The American concept of religious freedom was enacted specifically within the context of only the Christian sphere. It was designed to allow newer Christian political groups to exist, and to offer them legal protections. It works specifically for the Christian sphere because Christianity lacks an imperialist eschatology. Thus, the only Christian groups that seek any type of theocracy are small and marginalized. The religious freedom protection just so happens to work for non-Christian faiths that are similarly relatively non-political, and they do not work specifically for politically imperialist (theocratic) groups.

This is false.

Quote:

He continued:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination."

Jefferson's opinions on religious liberty were heavily influenced by John Locke, as noted by James H. Hutson, writing in 2002 as chief of the Library of Congress's Manuscript Division:

In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."

James Madison, whose views on religious liberty aligned with Jefferson's, helped usher the Virginia bill to final passage. In a document arguing against religious taxes that received thousands of signatures, Madison referenced foreign religious persecution — specifically the Inquisition.

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...im-rights/

The source may be Washington Post, but the quotes are based on actual history. Jefferson went out of his way to include Islam because he did not want a repeat of the Inquisition.

[Parzival]

As I'm the OP to this thread I'm fine with the discussion. As a German, why should I be tolerant to customs - harmful or not - that are not original customs of my country and culture? Even more those customs do not benefit the society. What do society gain when Germany has now a judge with a headscarf? Nothing. But she put herself above the common customs. And for me this is very typical for Muslims. Its this little, we are an oppressed minority behaviour of Muslims when this girl actual has just to accept the customs of her host country or even her native country. If its her host country, she is a guest, new there. If she is German, she should know better about the customs and don't demand special rights that complete against common customs.
She is not fighting oppression. Nobody say she can't be a judge because she is a muslim, migrant or women. But her teachers / trainers said, we have certain customs, respect them. Those customs do no harm to her. Beside that her thrill to be a unique snowflake that believe she fights against the oppression of Islam.
This is a dangerous attitude, when single individuals think they have special rights that go against the customs of the original society. Even more when they are not fighting and real intolerance.

About your France, German or whatever born Muslims. Look how many turn into fanatic terrorist. Its not because European societies are intolerant. No its because they feel lost. Because our values, our culture and our leaders are weak. This create a hole and into this hole slips radical Islam and say, hey see how you are oppressed? How you fail in society? They don't say, you fail because you are bad in school or because you don't behave. Many muslims fail in western societies because they don't accept western customs. And why don't they accept it? Because the west is weak and give them to much space that they can fill this empty space with their fanatic ideology. Do prevent people drifting apart we need less special rights for individual snowflakes that then feel oppressed. We need clear rules what is accepted and what not and everyone that step that line knows that he or she stand active against the common way of life in this society.

[All or Nothing]

(07-01-2016 03:19 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

As I'm the OP to this thread I'm fine with the discussion. As a German, why should I be tolerant to customs - harmful or not - that are not original customs of my country and culture? Even more those customs do not benefit the society. What do society gain when Germany has now a judge with a headscarf? Nothing. But she put herself above the common customs. And for me this is very typical for Muslims. Its this little, we are an oppressed minority behaviour of Muslims when this girl actual has just to accept the customs of her host country or even her native country. If its her host country, she is a guest, new there. If she is German, she should know better about the customs and don't demand special rights that complete against common customs.

I think this is not as big of a deal in the long run. You could look at this from another perspective and this could be seen as the process of cultural integration.

The main parts of Muslim culture that need to be dropped are the ultra-Orthodox views around women's rights, gay rights, and Sharia law. If Muslim migrants are dropping those aspects of their culture and accepting German societies views around human rights and the application of law while learning the language and assimilating into the German population, the hijab thing can be seen as a relative hiccup in the process.

Quote:

About your France, German or whatever born Muslims. Look how many turn into fanatic terrorist. Its not because European societies are intolerant. No its because they feel lost. Because our values, our culture and our leaders are weak. This create a hole and into this hole slips radical Islam and say, hey see how you are oppressed? How you fail in society? They don't say, you fail because you are bad in school or because you don't behave. Many muslims fail in western societies because they don't accept western customs. And why don't they accept it? Because the west is weak and give them to much space that they can fill this empty space with their fanatic ideology. Do prevent people drifting apart we need less special rights for individual snowflakes that then feel oppressed. We need clear rules what is accepted and what not and everyone that step that line knows that he or she stand active against the common way of life in this society.

While I do not know the whole reason behind why there is so much violence, I believe a lot of it is driven by Wahhabism.

The long term solution to this problem would be to methodically deconstruct the proselytization of the more extreme sects of Islam and work to spread a more moderate form of the religion.

Another thing I was thinking about was how there are secular Muslims now who are speaking out against Islamic extremism and it would be possible to work with them to create a "reform" version of Islam that is more compatible with the values of Western society. The "reform" version would create a longterm pathway to assimilation, which I view as the most important thing to accomplish as a way of reducing ethnically driven tensions.

[Parzival]

Inside Islam I see a fight against modern, more liberal or more western values against the more radical, maybe more traditional form. I'm quite sure most Muslims want to live in peace as well. The issue with Islam is, that it has many different sects or brands, every Iman can release a Fatwa that allows to kill someone. Every crazy lunacy can put his motivation on the Quran. What you are talking about seems like the idea of a more liberal, Euro Islam. The reforms where we all wait to happen but you know what I see? At first after an Islamic terror attack it was - this is not Islam. And now? Islam not even comes up any more. Its like we all did accept that there are terror attacks. Like we all accept that we put no pressure on Muslims to talk about whats going on in the name of their religion.

Some even say, the more liberal Muslims do not direct follow true Islam. Its like Christianity in Europe but the root of Islam is a way more aggressive then Christianity. I know Muslims and so far they are fine people. Still at some point, when you have a certain percentage of them the radical voices rice and then its kind of a group movement. Thats why we have to strike hard against any form of an Islamic uprising. If we can get rid of the radical ones and re shape the origin of Islam into some lighter Islam, then of course a girl with a headscarf is not an issue. But I doubt that you can reshape Islam and if so, I'm not willing to wait till those people come to a sense and until then we are the victims.

[tomtud]

Parzival, well said.

I remember working in the gulf (Qatar) and all the expats would say it's their country, their traditions. Respect it. This is fine. Now with certain religious groups or ethnic cultural groups who are citizens in a "western" country who bring certain cultural practices from the old country that conflict with the host culture, Therein lies a potential problem.

The conclusion I came from reading about these issues particularly with islam is that hijabs aren't mandatory. I know of many Muslims who don't wear one. So, it's more if a cultural issue rather religious. Hence, if cultural norms aren't to show head coverings then who the hell is she to go against it. This is one example of why people dislike Muslims. Cultural imperialism/not conforming to the host culture.

I sense fascism is gonna peak it's head real soon. Once the economy tanks really bad, scapegoats will be picked. The Jews were picked for being "separate" from the majority, and so will other groups this time around.

What is next? Separating men from women in public buildings? Not allowing a male police officer to speak to a woman driver for an infraction. The inconveniences, time wasted and money spent on accommodating other cultural practices will eventually lead to a cultural collapse. No country with freedoms should give in to foreign cultural practices that come from "intolerant" places.

Freedom of religion should take a backseat to cultural practices of the said country. Cherry picking a piece of cloth will lead to more and more demands. These non conformists will probably be annoyed with you if you say they can't beat their women. They will be annoyed with you if you say you can't throw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

[PowerGame]

About integration, many are in the 3rd, 4th or even more generations.

It won't happen. Only by the degenerates, which the forum values don't align with,will 'integrate' into the elites plan.

And I say it again, relativism opens the door to a real race or religion war. Muslims need to denie the religion and even then the odds they are degenerates is very high. That's the people that get slaughtered first with every other religion together in Muslim majority countries by Muslims.

In Germany for example at least every fifth Muslim marries a cousin.

Incest and not treated psychological disorders are real and the dark numbers are 20-50%+ in every Muslim country as is the denial that anything can be wrong with a Muslim. As is the social attitude to lie instead of insulting ones 'honor' .

They can't think logically or with a moral compass.

See it as a betting game if you got a chance which is even lower than in European countries to have proper, educated people who have the same morale and values as you.. Why even bother? Why let anybody in?

Writing Islam is or will become European is just an insult to everyone if the same person uses relativism.


All Muslims I have met in my life that acted cultured chose their own kind when they needed to prove it. Even when their own kind fucked them over.

Even if just every tenth Muslim is that bad.. Then it's one enough to make up 9 weak willed or degenerates,who will die or become submissive like in their home country.

[mikado]

(07-01-2016 04:17 PM)PowerGame Wrote:  

Even if just every tenth Muslim is that bad.. Then it's one enough to make up 9 weak willed or degenerates,who will die or become submissive like in their home country.

Their home country IS western (Germany France etc)

It's not about being weak willed, it's about not wanting to have business with terrorists and people who don't directly influence their actual lives whatsoever.

[tomtud]

Parzival, well said.

I remember working in the gulf (Qatar) and all the expats would say it's their country, their traditions. Respect it. This is fine. Now with certain religious groups or ethnic cultural groups who are citizens in a "western" country who bring certain cultural practices from the old country that conflict with the host culture, Therein lies a potential problem.

The conclusion I came from reading about these issues particularly with islam is that hijabs aren't mandatory. I know of many Muslims who don't wear one. So, it's more if a cultural issue rather religious. Hence, if cultural norms aren't to show head coverings then who the hell is she to go against it. This is one example of why people dislike Muslims. Cultural imperialism/not conforming to the host culture.

I sense fascism is gonna peak it's head real soon. Once the economy tanks really bad, scapegoats will be picked. The Jews were picked for being "separate" from the majority, and so will other groups this time around.

What is next? Separating men from women in public buildings? Not allowing a male police officer to speak to a woman driver for an infraction. The inconveniences, time wasted and money spent on accommodating other cultural practices will eventually lead to a cultural collapse. No country with freedoms should give in to foreign cultural practices that come from "intolerant" places.

Freedom of religion should take a backseat to cultural practices of the said country. Cherry picking a piece of cloth will lead to more and more demands. These non conformists will probably be annoyed with you if you say they can't beat their women. They will be annoyed with you if you say you can't throw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

[Parzival]

Some months ago there was a case of women, born in Germany by Tunis migrants. Did post it in the migrant invasion topic. After some years she did turn into a radical muslim and did cover full. There was a case of an insult and she went to a court and she did refuse to uncover. The court did call the Islamic scholar to get everything in the lines of Islam and the scholar said she can uncover and she still refused to uncover. Here you have a German born Migrant, that self radicalise, in front of the court even an Islamic scholar said she can uncover and she did not do so.. As said to cover is a cultural thing, not one from the Quran. How to deal with such fanatics?

About segregation. Some public baths already bring in sperate days for men and women because they don't want women to be attacked. Hell I can't rememember one single case where German ever did attack German women in public baths. But since last year you have a lot of those attacks. So now we need Islamic protection rules to protect women from problems that we hadn't without Muslims.

Those radical and fanatic behaviour is a problem. In some way you can transfer it to bodybuilding. Where people that start to train cut every normal social activity and create strange social and eating habits. The more strict they are to themselves, the more fanatic the more self esteem they gain. And then they can look down on those that don't have this discipline. Even when its unnecessary. Same for those Muslims, they become maybe even more fanatic then its even written in the Quran but they don't listen. They feel inside pride and glory when they stand against the society that they consider as weak and dirty. We have to fight this mentality. This is a spiritual war, a cultural one.