[kbell]

Here is the thread! I'm trying to wrap my head around Krita now. Not an easy program to use.

[The Catalyst]

I've just started learning to draw. I might post some pics another day since the internet at my house is down. I've gotten this book The Complete Beginner's Guide to Drawing : More Than 200 Drawing Techniques, Tips and Lessons



Expensive, but I think it's worth it. Right now I'm just dabbling; normally when it's sunny or when I'm sitting at a cafe or beach I often just take out a puzzle book and kill some time and engage myself. The goal is to replace a hobby where basically I'm consuming with a hobby where I'm producing. Would be cheaper in the long run also.

Done a few pages of practise, of just drawing random things according to the book. Tried eyes and nose and lips, weirdly eyes were really easy and I was really proud with the way it turned out. Nose and lips were really difficult to get right though. I can't wait until my internet is back up so I might show you what I mean.

Game goals: Since I look relatively artsy, I could potentially do an open with "Hey, can I draw you" to a girl I like at the cafe/beach. Probably a close too "I'll show you what I've drawn/I'll draw you at my place". I'd also like to be able to preserve the likeness of the pretty girls I see.

Edit: I passed up this book when I was browsing. I wonder if I made the right choice...

[The Catalyst]

Some of the beginner sketches I've done.

[kbell]

I like the eyes and your understanding the basic shapes. I would look into facial proportions, and understand the rules of 3s in a face. Hairline is 1 st part, brows second, nose in third part, and chin at bottom. There is an extra 1/2 for the top of skull.



https://www2.aofoundation.org/wps/portal...anguage=en

Surgery proportions pretty good reference.



Classic Leonardo.

Also do individual studies of each feature and learn facial anatomy if you want to get really good a faces. Its dreadful to see when people get photo realism style shading with no understanding of anatomy or proportions, common on instagram.

[The Catalyst]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

Proportionwise what exactly would you say I'm doing wrong? Just so I have a better idea of what to work on.

[kbell]

Jaw is the biggest issue you have. There really is no room for the mouth to fit in there properly so it looks wrong. Try draw a proportion chart at some point. Its best to think that way. Also the eyes are too big, should be roughly 1/5 the width of the head and the nose is one eye width, roughly. Top of nose is close to eyelevel and nose is not that narrow at the upper portion.

The detailed facial feature you have is the closest to accuracy. I may eventually do paintovers here (corrections in photoshop), but I'm still getting my rust off drawing wise.

[The Catalyst]

I was trying to draw this:



Ended up with this:




I'm most unhappy with the face which to me now looks ugly and not at all what the girl looked like originally, but I'm not sure how to draw it better.

I believe my proportions and shading and details are a little off everywhere else but for the most part I like what I see. Any tips on improvement?

[debeguiled]

That is a pretty hard picture to draw, so give yourself credit. You aren't just drawing the three quarter view of the face, but at an upward angle, so yours isn't bad.

That is a very difficult angle for the face. I was too lazy to learn how to do it, but is mostly impossible if you don't have a firm understanding of perspective for the body in your head that you can apply to what you see.

Find a good book on anatomy for artists, which is simpler than a regular anatomy book and deals with the underlying structure of the body too.

Finally, if you can find a copy of Drawing Lessons From the Great Masters, check it out even if you don't decide to learn drawing to that degree.

https://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Lessons-M...0823014010

This guy is a complete fucking character, and his illustrations come from actual Great Master drawings.



It is entertaining and informative.

One thing that has always stuck with me from that book: That the body is just a bunch of rectangles, squares, cylinders, spheres, and cones.

As an artist, you have to make the decision which of these basic shapes the part of the body you are drawing should be.

Is the head you are drawing more like a square, or a cylinder, or a sphere? Are the fingers cylinders or rectangular blocks?

Then once you decide on the shape of the head, the cheek bones can be partially submerged spheres, etc..

Think in terms of a bunch of simplified shapes fused together makes the difficult task of drawing the human body less daunting.

If you understand a little bit about perspective as well as the skeleton, you can have a mental picture of the armature these simple shapes are hanging off, as well as how they look in space.

It is these sorts of choices that an artist makes as he goes along to solve the problem of what he sees.

If you don't actually make the choice, the drawing looks mushy.

If you don't want to learn all the Old Master stuff, a good way to gain confidence is to use the grid method to copy a picture, or even just the part of the picture you are having trouble with. Perspective is a real pisser, and often makes no sense until you see it finished.

I just found some videos of the guy, but I haven't watched them yet. Should give you and idea of how his book is.

Grid tutorial. There are plenty of these online if you don't like this one.

If you find yourself losing interest, pick a picture of a hotter ballerina. Lust is a great motivator for drawing.



Edit: Just found this simplified tutorial on the method of the author of that book for drawing heads and proportioning the body. Check it out and see if it helps.

[The Catalyst]

Thanks for the reply Deb. I added the videos to my Watch Later.

Where do you get good pictures for inspiration to draw? I've got that original picture from the pixelovely site in the OP. But I'm always looking for more/better pictures.

[kbell]

Envelopes will help you learn rough composition and more importantly negative space and which allows you to draw the silhouette of almost everything after practice.

Your not ready to attempt body's yet. Learn the feature and anatomy of each part first which is easier said than done. You also need to come to grips with S curves. You will also have to contend with foreshortening which can be difficult. Your jumping into one of the hardest parts of figure drawing without a solid foundation.


Some anatomy stuff you will need to know. Be able to understand ecorche (attempt to draw it) because dancers are thin and ripped. They are also more flexible than usual too. I do think that both picture presented are difficult poses.

http://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/o...re-ecorche


Proportions like shown before will be needed too. I also think your holding your pencil in a traditional grip. So you will not get good gesture. His other videos are excellent. I think he a has a beginners series which would be helpful.

[oilbreh]

Drawing from photos is a bad idea.. especially with a grid method. At that point you are just playing color the square like a printer, its not really art, but you can make photo realistic drawings that will impress regular people. If you want to draw humans and have no one to model, best bet is to copy masters drawings, da Vinci, Michelangelo, or even the cave painters are good starts.



If you are just starting out, try drawing some of your glassware or objects in your room..

My best tip for someone starting out is be aware of where your eyes are looking. You should be constantly be looking from paper to subject, never lingering too long on the paper. Also draw things as you see them, don't try to change things once your pen hits the paper.

If you want a book 'The Natural Way to Draw: A Working Plan for Art Study' by Nicolaides is probably the best one. No need to follow it 100%, but its great because it emphasis building mental tools of perception of the whole rather than dissecting things into grids, boxes and simplified shapes like most modern books do to patch up our weak sense of perception. He also emphasis master studies and drawing things that are in motion.

[kbell]

So I traced the original piece. As I suspected a difficult pose because there is foreshortening in the head and neck. The green lines correspond to where I thought the proportions will be according to a 8 head proportions. I may have made mistakes at the hip with the proportions. Feet are on point so that's unusual for proportions so I didn't consider that area. Red is the outline which contains no straight lines and has multiple opposing curves. I over exaggerated the envelop which is usually just lines so you could see the negative space around her body. The envelope is purple. There was some facial planes. But this picture is blurry especially in the hands and hard to determine what her hips are doing perfectly.

As I get better with wacom tablets, I will try try to do ecorches over some areas.

[debeguiled]

(12-23-2018 12:06 PM)oilbreh Wrote:  

Drawing from photos is a bad idea.. especially with a grid method. At that point you are just playing color the square like a printer, its not really art, but you can make photo realistic drawings that will impress regular people.

I don't agree with this at all. Each person learns art at their own pace and in their own way. To help someone else it is good to remember what it was like when you first started out.

It can get demoralizing doing your best over and over and not liking it. Early success is important, so if going with the grid at first works, there is nothing wrong with it.

While it is true that doing it this way won't help you drawing from life as far as perspective and anatomy go, you can still learn an immense amount from making copies of things you like using a grid. You get a feel for composition, shading techniques, style, etc..

Not everyone will be willing, nor should they, to put in the hours to master drawing quickly and accurately from life. There is nothing wrong with turning out drawings that impress *regular people.*

And, later on, you can change things up to suit you and put your figure against a different background. There is plenty of room for learning and creativity doing it this way.

It is all down to the personality of the individual artist, what works best for them and what they are trying to achieve.

The most important thing for some will be the output, and for others the enjoyment of the intrinsic process, the problem solving puzzle of turning what you see into a picture.

Quote:

If you want to draw humans and have no one to model, best bet is to copy masters drawings, da Vinci, Michelangelo, or even the cave painters are good starts.

Agreed, if that is what the individual artist wants to do. Some would be bored stiff by this, and would get more enjoyment out of drawing from things they are interested in, like famous sports photos, or pictures of their favorite authors.

Motivation is important, and if you are not getting enjoyment out of copying master's drawings or glassware, you will lose motivation and it won't work.

For most people, the goal isn't to become a professional artist, but to have fun drawing.

Quote:

My best tip for someone starting out is be aware of where your eyes are looking. You should be constantly be looking from paper to subject, never lingering too long on the paper. Also draw things as you see them, don't try to change things once your pen hits the paper.

This is good advice.

Quote:

If you want a book 'The Natural Way to Draw: A Working Plan for Art Study' by Nicolaides is probably the best one. No need to follow it 100%, but its great because it emphasis building mental tools of perception of the whole rather than dissecting things into grids, boxes and simplified shapes like most modern books do to patch up our weak sense of perception. He also emphasis master studies and drawing things that are in motion.

Agree with this one too, though I still agree with myself as well. The point is, some people can learn simply by seeing better, and others need a mental framework to fit their output into. It is not either/or.

The Catalyst should most of all have fun drawing, whether it is realistic, cartoonish, or caricatures.

He should not be handed iron clad rules of engagement. It is his hobby, and ultimately only he knows what works best for him and what is most enjoyable.

(12-23-2018 01:55 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:  

Thanks for the reply Deb. I added the videos to my Watch Later.

Where do you get good pictures for inspiration to draw? I've got that original picture from the pixelovely site in the OP. But I'm always looking for more/better pictures.

One of the great things about art is that it gives you access to a different part of your brain, and one that men often neglect.

What is your aesthetic? What are your visual preferences? What visual subjects inspire you to draw?

You have the whole internet to choose from, but only you can know what subject is inspiring enough to you that you will have the patience to keep working on it see the picture through.

I wouldn't go looking for specific sites, I would spend time thinking about what excites me and what I am passionate about, and then do a Google search on that.

Just have fucking fun and don't get too bogged down on being perfect. If you aren't having fun with it, what's the point?

I started out copying illustrations in books on anatomy for artists until I could come up with an idea of my own and know that the anatomy would be right when I executed it.

This was a lot of painstaking work and ultimately unsatisfying despite the fact that photo-realistic drawing is what the beginner thinks of when he thinks of being an artist.

I played around with all sorts of techniques, materials, and made a point of remembering which artists or cartoonists had a style that inspired me.

Eventually I found I was a lot happier with a looser more idiosyncratic style, closer to cartooning, that expressed what was important to me emotionally.

You have your whole lifetime to explore this so don't get frustrated or compare yourself to people with the natural gift of drawing what they see.

Did I mention to have fun with it?

[The Catalyst]

Thanks guys for the responses.

Kbell, you're right, I was holding the pencil really tightly. Might be a hard habit to break. I'll look into the videos it seems it's a lot to break down and take in.

Oilbreh, I've started out a bit with drawing stuff around me, eventually I ran out of interesting things to really do. I don't plan on drawing people without something to model, seems really difficult.

Deb, right now my goals are to mainly draw pretty girls. Some from inspirational pictures, some from real life. I don't know what else but I'd also just try to draw other stuff if it's cool too. I don't know how to explain it exactly. Like landscapes/buildings/interiors, but ha I do like pretty girls.

For now, the drawing of the girl I did above is roughly what I want to do, but I want my faces to not look completely off, and I'd want the rest of the picture to look slightly better as well.

I do like the idea of just having fun though. My goal is just to be able to do an indirect opener of something like "Hey, I was wondering if I can draw you?" and then not have the girl be spooked, and we can both have fun as well, and the drawing just needs to look decent/good enough to facilitate that. Ideally it would look a lot better but for the most part I'm happy aside from my terrible drawings of faces. The other thing about game here in NZ which I might've discussed before is Kiwis really don't like talking to strangers or making new friends, so their only friends are "forced" social circles(school/work/flatting). I suspect I might need some sort of simulated social circle/warm approach type of vibe instead of the classic London Daygame Model that would work for normal socially well adjusted girls. EDIT: on that, I might want to learn how to draw her relatively fast- I've currently been taking my own sweet time with my pictures. But I suppose I'd get faster as I get better naturally.

[kbell]

Don't worry about speed yet!! I tried drawing people in Colombia, and it took about 10 minutes to get a workable line work with my skill level at the time. I think I would be faster now. The drawing was bad too. Takes several hours to make an impressive drawing. 30-60 hours for hyperrealism I think. In figure drawing class there is an exercise where you get 30 seconds to draw a full person. So all you have time for is gesture. The 20 minute poses you can get line work done and some basic shadows. Its hard to sit still, especially for an ADHD phone addicted millennial. Take a photo. Draw the overall shape and tell her you will finish it later. And you need her number to send it too her.

Speed comes with time and finding methods that work for you.

Unless you luck out and get someone who loves sitting still and loves the process.

[img border size=640]https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0468/9...1523643475[/img] I don't remember the URL resize html.

The eye of David by Renato Morselli, on Flickr

[debeguiled]

@kbell

Yeah, but even that patience takes time to develop. Sometimes when you start out you want results soon or you lose your drive to finish something.

I think I drew for a full year before I realized that part of being an artist is wanting to get it right more than wanting to get it finished.

I was trying to copy a figure and I just couldn't get the curve of a hand right, from the wrist to hand to fingers.

But I knew I would know it when I saw it, and just kept erasing and redrawing over and over, must have been 40 times until I had the line I wanted.

That's when the penny dropped. You know you are on your way when getting it right is more important than getting it done.

[kbell]

There are two courses I'm simultaneously doing which are good for that, pm me for that. I think I want to start using thicker paper soon personally for the over erasing.

Also every curve can be broken down into lines than you figure out the curvature between the lines. More guidelines the easier it is to find the shape.

I honestly started with anime and cartoon characters. They are easier to draw and fun. Creating your own is actually harder than realism though, if they are to be any good.

[kbell]

So this is the block in stage. I went a bit further than usual. I need to clean up the lines and some proportions. I may even redraw it with the stablizer brush in krita and see what happens! When you do this on paper, use a H to a B pencil with a light touch so it can be erased later. I technically don't have to do a linework stage since there is no lines the original picture. Using low opacity brushes is more like drawing in real life so that is a nice tip I figured out the hard way in the exercise.

[The Catalyst]

Tried to draw one of my favorite girls, Rachel Cook. I really need to learn how to draw hair, it was so pretty and I want to get it right. For now I just left it undrawn. I'd also want to get the shading and pattern of her shirt done.

[kbell]

For the hair. Great video on it. Your improving I like what your doing with the shading and noticing reflection. . The head is more V shaped. Would you want paint overs?

[The Catalyst]

Yes please!

[kbell]

So this is a bit rushed and sloppy, but hopefully it will give you some ideas. Her eyes are enormous and possibly crazy, are smaller than you think when you draw it. Oddly enough her entire iris is exposed! I increased the jaw size and changed overall proportions. Your drawing of the torso was pretty decent, but I when drawing shirts, draw all of the tits first. I checked out her instagram and she has nice tits, playmate! Helps to figure out how to the clothes will drape. The hair I didn't go too detailed with. The lips can usually be split into at least 5 parts while roughing in the drawing. Helps simply creating the lips. Her lips were wide but there was a bit of area around the mouth. I hope this helps.

I still think your drawing too heavily. Maybe try an H pencil or practice gripping looser. Your lines are like what I do at the end of a drawing to get darker lines and shading.

edit I think I have been holding my wacom pen wrong! Will be experimenting soon.

[The Catalyst]

Wow it's amazing how even small differences in line placement makes a big difference! Thanks for the input, I'll keep it in mind and will work on improving them. The thing that gets me is particularly with the jaw how difficult it is to get the exact line and if you're even a little bit off it doesn't quite work.

With the lips I assume you mean I should have more area around the chin and around the corner of the lips?

Yeah I've been using a B pencil(and rarely, 4B) and was drawing relatively heavy lines. It might be a pretty hard habit to break for me weirdly. I'll work on holding it looser and look into getting an H pencil.

[kbell]

Lines now! Far less sloppy and I think the proportions are good enough. Its kind of cool if you proportions are off you can tranform the lines.

@The catalyst Those changes may seem small now, but in time they become huge to your eye. If the jaw is off your not getting a likeness. And its one the first parts you draw in general! An H pencil has some clay in it making it harder so be careful not to push hard into the paper. You can damage it (which can be a technique for white hair). Its good for finding shapes and forms. Take your time to measure and figure out where proportions go and feature sizes with the h pencil. It pays off in the end.

[kbell]

I've never really painted digitally much. Its fun but I don't think this is that great. Its hard to get the brushes to do what I want yet. Water brushes are odd for blending. I will probably do one more clean up pass.