[bigrich]

Everyone is talking about how they are going to leave if Trump is elected, however, the policies of Barack Obama are actually causing Americans to cut all ties with the United Sates.

Over the first three months of the year, 1,158 Americans have renounced their citizenship due to FATCA and its enforcement. It used to be free to renounce and now it will cost you $2,350, more if you reach a certain income and asset threshold.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/...cords.html

[username]

1,158 is not a big number when you consider that 315+ million people live in the US. Interestingly enough, the chart on that page shows that under Obama there has been a significant increase in citizens renouncing their citizenship.

A thing to consider is that probably a majority of those people giving up their citizenship are high income and/or have a high net worth. It doesn't make sense for any American living overseas with income under the $100,800 Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to give up their citizenship. The renouncers are probably like, for example, a person from Ireland who has US citizenship and plans to sell his foreign based company for $20 million but realized that if he renounces his US citizenship he will save millions in taxes.

[bigrich]

I wonder if the numbers will continue to rise in similar numbers in the coming years at similar rates. Going from a little over a hundred a quarter to a thousand plus in just eight years is a big jump. This may be the start of an ever growing drain of entrepreneurial talent from the US. I know there is a movement to make it even more difficult for Americans to do business abroad.

[cascadecombo]

Frame the data.
How many have renounced every year for the past 10 years?

I know a few expats who have changed their country of residency. Japan for example requires you to no longer be a US citizen. If I recall correctly.

[Goldin Boy]

1,158 out of the approximately 318,900,000 million in the country is about 0.000003612% of the population.

OP that percentage is so laughably insignificant you really can't extrapolate anything off of it. It would help your case (which I'm assuming is the recurring manosphere motif "The West is declining") if you presented data over several decades that showed a increase in renunciations. But of course it wouldn't be much since 1,158 citizens next to nothing.

[TravelerKai]

This should help frame it for you guys: (from the article)



Even if the actual number is tiny compared to the population the jump in number is the reason for the concern. When you look at it this way it does mean something.

[Atlanta Man]

Tech money avoiding taxes is the likely reason for the steady increase in my opinion . There are more millionaires in tech than ever before and more international millionaires that are citizens of multiple countries ( ex- Brazilian Metals Importer that is a citizen of Portugal, Braziland US-but was born in Brazil and became a US citizen as a teenager). The tech money may be like the Facebook guy who renounced for tax reasons. If I made 150 million I would understand renouning citizenship to save those taxes.

[BortimusPrime]

If it costs money to stop being a citizen, isn't that essentially slavery?

[azulsombra]

(05-06-2016 08:48 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

If it costs money to stop being a citizen, isn't that essentially slavery?

I think more like indentured servitude than slavery.
You are given the option to buy your "freedom".

[bigrich]

In absolute terms the numbers are trivial. But the trend points to the highest increase in renunciations in the history of the country. We are taught that being an American is the most coveted citizenship in the world but people of means are starting to reject that.

Here is another chart. The one above is quarterly, here are the yearly stats:

[infowarrior1]

(05-06-2016 08:54 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 08:48 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

If it costs money to stop being a citizen, isn't that essentially slavery?

I think more like indentured servitude than slavery.
You are given the option to buy your "freedom".

Apparently one would have to prove 5 years of IRS tax compliance also. So that the high-income earner would not be guilty of Tax evasion.

[Putin Closes]

All this anti-US hate is getting repetitive. Millions of people would pay their weight in gold to get a green card. Fact is the US passport is one of the best in the world, along of one of the worlds highest standards of living. Yes, the women suck, but overall picture, I'd much rather be an American then a citizen of some bumfuck 3rd world nation in Asia.

Unless your making 100k+ a year, your not subject to double taxation anyways. I suspect almost all of those people are the wealthy striking it rich in the states and want to avoid paying taxes.

[scrambled]

(05-08-2016 04:56 AM)Putin Closes Wrote:  

All this anti-US hate is getting repetitive. Millions of people would pay their weight in gold to get a green card.

Ah, but why do those millions want that green card? To sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the American people? [imagine Roosh laughing gif here]

99% of those people don't have any gold, they are just takers. Immigrants are disproportionately high users of welfare.

The ones renouncing have the value, both monetarily and intrinsically--it's a brain drain, symptomatic of "the decline".

[porscheguy]

A lot of the people who renounce their citizenship are doing so because they think it elevates them to an even higher social status. Think of the most vile rich person you know or have seen on TV. Picture them saying some stupid shit like "I'm a citizen of the world." Or some other nonsense like that. Pretty easy isn't it?

I don't really have an issue with the majority of people who do this. But AFAIC, if you renounce, then you should be barred from ever setting foot back in the US.

[Onto]

What you're seeing is called, "The smart money".

They realized several years ago with FACTA, Obamacare, along with the "Occupy Wall Street" and "Forgive Student Debt" movements that the country is moving headlong towards socialism and will need to find someone to pay for it.

If I was wealthy and had the means I might renounce also. You can still visit, keep your US property, businesses, investments, and all the rest.

Why stay a citizen? For social security and medicaid? If you're wealthy, that's a drop in the your bucket.

[bigrich]

Under current federal law, the Justice Department can bar former citizens entry into the country if they are found to have renounced purely for tax reasons. However, these is no funding to investigate and prove that an individual renounced specifically for tax reasons.

In 2012, Senator Chuck Schumer introduced the Ex-PATRIOT Act, which would empower and fund the Department of Treasury to bar former citizens from entering the United States in conjunction with the State Department. The bill was never enacted but they may try to sneak into law in the future.

[Putin Closes]

(05-08-2016 06:03 PM)scrambled Wrote:  

(05-08-2016 04:56 AM)Putin Closes Wrote:  

All this anti-US hate is getting repetitive. Millions of people would pay their weight in gold to get a green card.

Ah, but why do those millions want that green card? To sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the American people? [imagine Roosh laughing gif here]

99% of those people don't have any gold, they are just takers. Immigrants are disproportionately high users of welfare.

The ones renouncing have the value, both monetarily and intrinsically--it's a brain drain, symptomatic of "the decline".

America has always been the land of immigrants. Quite contrary to those who watch the media scaremongers, those who immigrate LEGALLY through a non-relative visa or the green card lottery are usually highly educated and contribute to society almost immediately, due to our very strict immigration policy.

There's a reason the rich Chinese all are trying to immigrate to the US and some are willing to front $1M+ for an investment visa.



I suspect it may rise further.

[The Beast1]

Renouncing citizenship seems unnecessary. Couldn't you utilize several off shore LLCs or their equivalents to hide the tax liability?

[Geomann180]

(05-09-2016 05:16 AM)Putin Closes Wrote:  

America has always been the land of immigrants.

European Immigrants.

Until sometime after 1960.

G

[scrambled]

(05-08-2016 06:19 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

A lot of the people who renounce their citizenship are doing so because they think it elevates them to an even higher social status. Think of the most vile rich person you know or have seen on TV. Picture them saying some stupid shit like "I'm a citizen of the world." Or some other nonsense like that. Pretty easy isn't it?

Do you work in the US Foreign Service? Or as locally employed staff at a US Embassy at a post with significant numbers of renunciations, like Bern? If not, how would you have any idea of the internal motivations of renuncees? What makes you think your (totally unlikely, given human nature) psychoanalysis is accurate? Even if a jetsetter might flatter themselves that they are citizens of the world, or some such, they wouldn't be likely to follow through with an annoying legal procedure that has serious ramifications to their lives (and prevents any future children they have from taking citizenship as well).

The reason they renounce is more like: they no longer live in the US, are retiring in a better place, have enough money to never work again, etc.

Quote:

I don't really have an issue with the majority of people who do this. But AFAIC, if you renounce, then you should be barred from ever setting foot back in the US.

Sounds like your resentment would make public policy, and there is no rational reason for such a ban; renuncees can use their non-US passport, or apply for a visa, to visit the US, just like any other foreigner abroad. Why should it be different for them?

(05-09-2016 05:16 AM)Putin Closes Wrote:  

America has always been the land of immigrants. Quite contrary to those who watch the media scaremongers, those who immigrate LEGALLY through a non-relative visa or the green card lottery are usually highly educated and contribute to society almost immediately, due to our very strict immigration policy.

That's a propaganda slogan; more like, "the land of settlers" (from Europe, as mentioned); Our immigration policy is so far from being strict, if not for your graph, I would call troll, or more likely you are just a foreigner yourself. Mexico, Japan, China, all have actual strict immigration policies, and are enforced.

The mass media is 100% on the side of the immigration/invasion, chain immigration is prolific and the inevitable result of "non-relative visa" holders, who bring their non-productive family members, including elderly who immediately burden the taxpayer. The lottery is a joke, handing out residency and inevitable citizenship by random to 3rd worlders with no connection, either financially, cultural or ethnically, to America!

[Leonard D Neubache]

I agree with those that suggest this is a tax thing, but I would also go further as to suggest this is a socialist police state thing.

Being wealthy is no longer just a matter of being stuck with high taxes. A class war is being fomented and the wise among the upper class (below the elites) are sniffing the wind and hitting the road.

[bigrich]

I would like to dive deeper into those Visa numbers. How long do the Visa holders stay in the US and do they develop a permanent residency status? Because eventually, even if you are not a citizen you will be forced to comply with FATCA and pay taxes on income earned abroad if you are a legal resident.

If you are able to live in the US without becoming a permanent resident and just earn money here that would be an ideal option from a financial standpoint.

I just read that you can own property abroad in your own name without being required to report it to the government. However, when you sell that property, its income and Uncle Sam wants his cut.

[Onto]

(05-09-2016 06:22 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Renouncing citizenship seems unnecessary. Couldn't you utilize several off shore LLCs or their equivalents to hide the tax liability?

Yes, that used to be the case, but the US Treasury just passed some new rules requiring all financial institutions (off-shore also) to verify the individual identity of the LLC owner. The Treasury is also requesting Congress pass legislation to help close up more holes than it can on it's own.

I don't know anything about hiding income but it seems the US is tightening it all up because it seriously needs money to pay off all the longer term Treasuries coming due and of course social programs.