[Liberty Sea]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36190557

Quote:

Stealing small amounts of food to stave off hunger is not a crime, Italy's highest court of appeal has ruled.
Judges overturned a theft conviction against Roman Ostriakov after he stole cheese and sausages worth €4.07 (£3; $4.50) from a supermarket.
Mr Ostriakov, a homeless man of Ukrainian background, had taken the food "in the face of the immediate and essential need for nourishment", the court of cassation decided.
Therefore it was not a crime, it said.
A fellow customer informed the store's security in 2011, when Mr Ostriakov attempted to leave a Genoa supermarket with two pieces of cheese and a packet of sausages in his pocket but paid only for breadsticks.
In 2015, Mr Ostriakov was convicted of theft and sentenced to six months in jail and a €100 fine.

'Right and pertinent' ruling, say papers
For the judges, the "right to survival prevails over property", said an op-ed in La Stampa newspaper (in Italian).
In times of economic hardship, the court of cassation's judgement "reminds everyone that in a civilised country not even the worst of men should starve".

An opinion piece in Corriere Della Sera says statistics suggest 615 people are added to the ranks of the poor in Italy every day - it was "unthinkable that the law should not take note of reality".
It criticised the fact that a case concerning the taking of goods worth under €5 went through three rounds in the courts before being thrown out.
The "historic" ruling is "right and pertinent", said Italiaglobale.it - and derives from a concept that "informed the Western world for centuries - it is called humanity".
However, his case was sent to appeal on the grounds that the conviction should be reduced to attempted theft and the sentence cut, as Mr Ostriakov had not left the shop premises when he was caught.
Italy's Supreme Court of Cassation, which reviews only the application of the law and not the facts of the case, on Monday made a final and definitive ruling overturning the conviction entirely.
Stealing small quantities of food to satisfy a vital need for food did not constitute a crime, the court wrote.
"The condition of the defendant and the circumstances in which the seizure of merchandise took place prove that he took possession of that small amount of food in the face of an immediate and essential need for nourishment, acting therefore in a state of necessity," wrote the court.

[Horus]

Why does he live outside his country when he isn't capable of supporting himself economically?

[Captainstabbin]

Quote:

Mr Ostriakov was convicted of theft and sentenced to six months in jail and a €100 fine.

Seems a little steep for a $4.50 theft.

[Mekorig]

Here in Argentina we have some jurisprudence about it, its called petty or insignificant theft, and its usually when the amounts of goods stolen are insignificant (a few pesos) or the thief was in need (hunger, etc).

[R_Niko]

(05-03-2016 10:27 AM)Horus Wrote:  

Why does he live outside his country when he isn't capable of supporting himself economically?

I take your point but I think this question answers itself.

[H1N1]

Ostriakov sounds like a good Italian name. I wonder how this will work as hundreds of sub-Saharan migrants stream across the Med.

Property rights are one of the foundational pillars of civilization, and belief in their value is a particularly conservative position to take. The leftist Zeitgeist moves relentlessly through our institutions, making laws that are different in kind from the ones that have gone before. Small changes like this help to shift the way in which we think of right and wrong and our place as members of a civilization. When we cease to see property rights as inviolable, and we start to believe that the mystical notion of fairness, floating out there in the ether, is a superior good to the rigid enforcement of definable rights, then our civilization is in real peril.

Small, seemingly innocuous cases such as this are how real evil gets done in practice.

[Phoenix]

Pure madness. These kind of things are the first steps towards complete breakdown of social order. What kind of batshit insane judge would set a precedent like this.

Inb4 Italian court rules rape 'not a crime' if really horny, and arson 'not a crime' if really cold.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

WTF? It would be fair to forgive his crime because he was hungry, but to say that it's not a crime because he was hungry is utterly delusional.

[FebGun]

A whole concept of “law” is totally screwed under democracy.

In old times laws of human existence were discovered like laws of nature were discovered. If something is applicable in all situations then it is a law. Legislature is a relatively news concept for Western Civilization.

I say that Divine Law is the only source of law. John Locke would argue that there is such thing as a Natural Law. OK, I can accept it too. But a concept that legislator is a source of law is totally tyrannical. And now we see that on the top of that judge can interpret a law the way he please.

[Speculation]

This is something that should be resolved in sentencing, not in conviction. If they have a problem with the law itself, create a 'petty theft' law like was mentioned above for insignificant takes and lower penalties with the allowance for a spent conviction after some time has passed.

Also the court should direct the lack of welfare to be resolved by the government and not burden the community at large. Otherwise whenever you're 'hungry' you can walk into a house and help yourself to whatever's in the fridge.

[CaptainChardonnay]

(05-03-2016 11:19 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Ostriakov sounds like a good Italian name. I wonder how this will work as hundreds of sub-Saharan migrants stream across the Med.

Property rights are one of the foundational pillars of civilization, and belief in their value is a particularly conservative position to take. The leftist Zeitgeist moves relentlessly through our institutions, making laws that are different in kind from the ones that have gone before. Small changes like this help to shift the way in which we think of right and wrong and our place as members of a civilization. When we cease to see property rights as inviolable, and we start to believe that the mystical notion of fairness, floating out there in the ether, is a superior good to the rigid enforcement of definable rights, then our civilization is in real peril.

Small, seemingly innocuous cases such as this are how real evil gets done in practice.

Its interesting you said this. I've never been able to articulate your point above but I had some European, one Israeli roommates last year and they had no concept of the idea of property rights. What you said about fairness really struck a cord with me.

We got into an argument and they all threw a tantrum and started making demands. One guy said he wanted to use one of my cooking pans that my mom gave me and that he didn't think it was fair that I was the only one who could use it even though it was mine.

I understand the above point sounds minor but I cant get into details with some of their other demands other than that they were completely selfish. After they had the balls to ask me, "are we good"?

Now that I think of it, they even went to the university food donation where poor students can get free food and took that food instead of buying groceries. Things they spent their actual money, that their parents gave them, on were booze, cigarettes, etc.

Another thing that I've experienced with leftists is that they all claim to be fair and even but thats only if they get something out of it. It's never out of true good intentions.

I had a Brazilian roommate who was really big on fairness, and equality. In my house we have a system where everyone takes turns buying a bag of toilet paper and when one bag runs out another person buys it. Right before he was about to leave it was his turn to buy so I ask him to go buy some. He said, " why would I buy the toilet paper, I'm about to leave so I wont get any use out of it" even though he has been using the toilet paper other people have bought before him.

[Kona]

Don't they have EBT cards in Italy?

Aloha!

[Splord]

Note that the court ruling was about stealing from a supermarket, it would be interesting to see the ruling if it was from a private citizen, this is where slippery slopes start.

Many supermarket chains in Greece have corners where clients give a little something of what they bought for homeless people etc., or even give products voluntarily (even if it is for publicity reasons), doesn't Italy have a similar system? It is much more preferable than actually awarding an act of theft (whether we like the term or not).

[Splord]

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

We got into an argument and they all threw a tantrum and started making demands. One guy said he wanted to use one of my cooking pans that my mom gave me and that he didn't think it was fair that I was the only one who could use it even though it was mine.
I understand the above point sounds minor but I cant get into details with some of their other demands other than that they were completely selfish. After they had the balls to ask me, "are we good"?

Typical SJWs, if it belongs to someone else let everyone have it, if it belongs to them (and has value) it's theirs and theirs only.

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

Now that I think of it, they even went to the university food donation where poor students can get free food and took that food instead of buying groceries. Things they spent their actual money, that their parents gave them, on were booze, cigarettes, etc.

Food being a basic need I could accept that it could be provided for free and that I can keep my money for higher lever needs (entertainment is one of them, hence the drinks etc.)

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

Another thing that I've experienced with leftists is that they all claim to be fair and even but thats only if they get something out of it. It's never out of true good intentions.

See first quote.

[zigZag]

The way it's going i'll be surprised it i read a headline that says "Rape Okay if Extremely Horny"... Accountability and Logic doesn't seem to be with the left nowadays.

[mpr]

(05-03-2016 01:33 PM)Kona Wrote:  

Don't they have EBT cards in Italy?

Aloha!

I doubt they have them for non-citizens.

[trian1]

By this logic rape isn't a crime if a person is horny.

Therefore, if travelling to Italy....

[Kona]

(05-03-2016 06:03 PM)mpr Wrote:  

(05-03-2016 01:33 PM)Kona Wrote:  

Don't they have EBT cards in Italy?

Aloha!

I doubt they have them for non-citizens.

He should move to the USA.

Aloha!

[Yurtley]

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

He said, " why would I buy the toilet paper, I'm about to leave so I wont get any use out of it" even though he has been using the toilet paper other people have bought before him.

"Listen guys, I know we've all bought each other a round and now it's my turn...but I'm already hammered so I'm going home."

God, what a cunt.

[samsamsam]

(05-03-2016 07:34 PM)Yurtley Wrote:  

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

He said, " why would I buy the toilet paper, I'm about to leave so I wont get any use out of it" even though he has been using the toilet paper other people have bought before him.

"Listen guys, I know we've all bought each other a round and now it's my turn...but I'm already hammered so I'm going home."

God, what a cunt.

This is what bothers me about the world - just so few people understand right and wrong. It is all the "it's all good bro, let it go" shit - and you wonder why they have not accomplished anything in their lives. It takes sacrifice and suffering to create something good. It takes laziness and irresponsibility to create nothing but chaos and destruction. Don't argue with me about right and wrong, some things are pretty obvious.

It is like when you lend a guy 5 bucks and you ask for it and he goes what is the big deal, it is only 5 bucks. To which you answer, well if it is no big deal, then pay it bitch.

People just wanna take.

[Phoenix]

(05-03-2016 07:34 PM)Yurtley Wrote:  

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

He said, " why would I buy the toilet paper, I'm about to leave so I wont get any use out of it" even though he has been using the toilet paper other people have bought before him.

"Listen guys, I know we've all bought each other a round and now it's my turn...but I'm already hammered so I'm going home."

God, what a cunt.

Yeah this kind of behaviour is typical of a degenerate. As per the classic story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Hen .

Socialism is like "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Nothing but word trickery. In reality, it's "Dictatorship of Korea" and antisocialism.

[Burt Gummer]

I bet this is selectively enforced

"Poor muslim refugee" steals food. Gets no punishment.

Native Italian man steals food. Gets shafted.

[BortimusPrime]

(05-03-2016 01:13 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

We got into an argument and they all threw a tantrum and started making demands. One guy said he wanted to use one of my cooking pans that my mom gave me and that he didn't think it was fair that I was the only one who could use it even though it was mine.

Letting roommates use your cookware is about the fastest way to get the coating scratched off by metal utensils there is. I've had people just spend the night at my place and the next morning they're making breakfast scraping away before I could catch them. They'll dull the blades on good knives too.

Nowadays I just shoot at anyone that comes near my place, and my kitchen is in perfect condition.

[Parzival]

German justice Minister also want to make theft not longer a crime, just an offence. Our justice Minister also said, sexist advertisement was the reason for the cologne attacks.
You let this small stuff happen and whats next? I was hungry, I was horny, I was this and that. My emotions create the urge to do this and that and at the end there is no more responsibility because everyone has an excuse.

Today everyone is so special and they don't care about other people. People think its their right to stand out. I have some friends that work as firefighters, when they go to a car accident and close the lane, they get insults because someone planes now get mixed up. Or they don't clear the lane. Paramedics face the same, insults, spitting and attacks from people. And I don't talk about criminals or scum. Ordinary citizens that freak out when in their car. Or that attack conductors when they want to see the ticket. In the past people tried to not disturb the public, to take themselves back in sake of the higher good. These days, parents almost drive other kids down just because they have to bring their special snowflake kids to school with their big SUVs and block the road complete because they almost drive the kids into school. Then the people that think, I park diagonal in a parking space because its so more ease for me - fuck the others.
Furthermore those people want stuff for free, an extra discount or whatever. They don't ask for it any more, they demand it because they have this special and unique urge.

And you can do nothing about them, when you call them out, they either freak out or act ignorant. Nobody punish this little antisocial behaviour. Everyone complain about this but check the own privilege? Hell no.
In my student dormitory we had a shared kitchen. The papers, to clean it did not help so I just did call out everyone when he / she did not clean properly after cooking. By this the kitchen was always clean but you need always a person as guard dog. Personal I consider it a pity because I prefer less rules and less interaction from other people but for the sake of the social beings we are, we need this. If everyone would clean up his own mess, the world would be a clean place. Unfortunately not everyone is clean and for all the dirty ones, there you need this stuff. More self discipline and social awareness would prevent stricter regulation or downfall. Still its complaining about the human nature and humans are like that so they need leaders and they need people that watch out that everything goes smooth. But this is something that get lost in the more and more selfish individualistic society.

[R_Niko]

What's happening to society?...

We're shifting towards global Marxism, and this story is a perfect example. A poor person from another country, who I'm guessing technically has no real business in the host country in question, is caught stealing private property from a business, and is summarily deemed unaccountable under the law. I'm not against feeding hungry people, in fact I think we could all do a bit more to help, but in terms of legal precedent this is disturbing. It absolutely won't stop at homeless people shoplifting at supermarkets.

Gypsy stole your wallet? Well you only had a couple hundred euros, he didn't have any money at all because his family was poor and have been oppressed, so it's hardly a crime. This will go for other groups in other countries, wait and see.