[Leonard D Neubache]

Briefly, where I'm coming from. I'm happily married and here at the forum to better my masculinity as well as to learn the ins and outs of game so I can teach it to my sons.

This thread was spurred by several others relating to LTRs.

I was unfortunately raised on the basis that every relationship with a female should be entered into and kept up on the basis that it was a permanent arrangement that would inevitably occasion marriage (raised by a single mother).

This lead to years 16-23 being utterly miserable in terms of dealing with the opposite sex. I was a total white knight who had no idea why I wasn't getting laid despite being such a nice guy. In my misguided mind the object was sex but the means was commitment, rather than just getting my shit together and banging sluts (for shame!).

Some recent threads have related to either the possibility of entering into an LTR or the messy results of an LTR ending. With the benefit of hindsight my question is this.

What in the bloody hell is the point of an LTR unless you're absolutely committed to inevitable marriage?

Now, I'm not talking about "friends with benefits". I'm talking monogamy and eventual cohabitation, because if I had to give one piece of advice to my sons regarding women it would be "until you're genuinely looking to settle down, pump and dump exclusively."

Is this logic flawed? To me it seems like sex via monogamous dating is largely a product of mainstream media shows like Seinfeld who even back in those days wouldn't dare to delve into the realms of pump-and-dump conquest.

To me, LTRs seem like giving your balls to a woman on the promise that she'll routinely drain them.

[Dalaran1991]

I'm certainly not experienced enough in LTR so I only speak for my current one.

Like all redpill guys out there I don't really like the idea of settling down in LTR at first, and prefers to plow the field. Shit, at least that way you don't have to worry about cheating with the wrong girl.

The thing is, I dont think all of us can sustain the player lifestyle for long. A man's got better thing to do than chasing skirts all day.

That's when the idea of LTR becomes interesting, provided she does routinely drain it, and that she complements your life and make it better.

IMO with a bit of game and the right demo targeting, it's possible to find a LTR-material girl you can connect with. The last bit is the most important thing though: eventually you run into a girl you like more than the rest, whom you have no problem spending time with.

Naturally she will also want to lock you down, and I see it as perfectly good deal. You have a hot girl with sex on demand, and with whom you can spend your time with in a pleasant way.

As for why staying in LTR if you dont think of marriage, I can only say that because you never know. Things change, you change, she change. I think it's stupid to limit yourself to a rule such as "only LTR if eventually marry". What if the girl you wanted to marry turn out to be slut? What if you run into a girl who after a time in a LTR with her, give you enough faith in marriage?

I also dont think in terms of "stringing her along". If we are both content to be in a LTR, and she is happy to give me her best years and I return the favor, what's the harm? Unless she says she wants kids and marriage and you know for certain you don't, and she makes it into an ultimatum, then yeah cut it off. Kaotic can tell you a lot more about this.

Lots of downsides with LTR but lots of advantages too, and I learn as much in LTR as I do gaming.

My 2c.

[Pride male]

I wish I knew how the old timers handled ltrs. Having a relationship that lasts decades takes some serious game.

[kaotic]

(04-21-2016 03:55 PM)Pride male Wrote:  

I wish I knew how the old timers handled ltrs. Having a relationship that lasts decades takes some serious game.

The women were completely different and feminine back then.

You didn't have alot of loser women back in the day.

Having a relationship took serious game and a strong man back in the day also.

I ended my last LTR because I didn't want marriage or kids (at this point in my life).

I've also decided not to enter an LTR unless I see the woman as a true potential partner.

Mini LTR's are fine.

LTR's are a waste of time if you're just looking to bang and not get married.

[RatInTheWoods]

(04-21-2016 03:32 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

What in the bloody hell is the point of an LTR unless you're absolutely committed to inevitable marriage?

I like LTRS because:

I don't want to waste my life annoying random chicks in the street all day every day
I don't my woman getting pumped full of other dudes jizz
I don't want to have to train a new women how to please me every night/week
Chasing poon costs mopney, effort and emotion...

More important things in life to do, but I need my nut, so a ltr works.

Still need to game them and swap when they play up or get boring however

[Leonard D Neubache]

All good points. Cheers guys.

This is the sort of outside perspective I need so I can frame the matter with my sons when the time comes.

Much appreciated.

[Delta]

Think of all the ridiculous hoops guys jump through just to put their dick in some mediocre slut. To this end, men routinely:

-spend countless hours on approaches and/or dating app spamming
-slog through the obnoxiously loud, vapid, overheated night game environment
-poison themselves with copious amounts of alcohol to put up with the above
-drop money left and right on stupid shit like bottle service and buying girls drinks
-dress up in gaudy peacocking outfits
-travel significant distances to go on dates
-drop even more money on said dates
-force conversation with boring girls who they'd want nothing to do with if sex wasn't on the table
-have their time wasted by flakes, serial daters, and the like
-cope with hundreds, if not thousands of rejections
-run the risk of STDs

And they do all this for some girl they won't even want around anymore after jizzing.

Now think about what it's like to be in a (good) LTR. You're sitting at home, waiting for a cute girl who you actually like as a person to arrive at your place. You know that within 5 minutes of her showing up, you'll have her naked with no work on your part. And after you bang her, you'll be happy to have her still next to you.

There is no better feeling. Nothing puts me at peace like being in a LTR with a girl I really like. I can't understand for the life of me why that's not every man's main goal.

[The Black Knight]

For me, I only LTR chicks if:

1) They have Mother of My Children qualities.

and/or

2) They bring enormous value to my life. Amazing chemistry/sex, social proof, connections, money, etc. It can be a single thing or a combination of things but it has to be something VERY unique that brings incredible value to my life at the present time or in the very near future.

Whatever the case: this is also assuming they have all the mandatory basic qualities every man should demand (feminine, can cook, submissive/compliant, etc).

The mistake most men make is that they do not look at women with a strict value proposition perspective. They just think after knowing a chick for 2 weeks: "She fucks me, she's sort of nice, we get along well, and she wants me right this minute. She should be my girlfriend!"

I think to myself now with woman: "She should be trying to convince ME to LTR her. What do YOU bring to the table aside from your pussy?"

Oh, you can't cook? Get the fuck out.

Oh, your family is a bunch of fuck ups and you defend them? Get the fuck out.

Oh, you think your retarded ass tattoo on your hip in endearing and get pissy when I say I don't like it? Get the fuck out.

Oh, you don't eat healthy and exercise routinely? Get the fuck out.

Oh, you think the man should help around the house/do your job after working all day? Get the fuck out.

Oh, your friends are white knights and cunts? Get the fuck out.

Oh, you talk to your ex-bf frequently? Get the fuck out.

Oh, you think I'm going to put your career first? Get the fuck out.

Oh, you think men and women are equal?? GET. THE. FUCK. OUT!

Most men, don't do even a fraction of the aforementioned. No standards.

Anyhow, I like non-exclusive mini-LTRs for right now. I can enjoy the high of hanging out with someone new, getting fresh pussy, don't have to deal with none of the pressure of "Where is this Going?"/being exclusive bullshit, and everything is a new experience and an adventure. I get a lot of fun and value out of the first few months of hanging out with a certain type of new chick.

Eventually though after 1-3 months, I get bored and things start to feel a bit routine. The pussy isn't nearly as fresh, some of the mystery/adventure is gone, and it becomes more difficult to keep things non-exclusive. Unless I'm ready to have kids AND the chick has an amazing personality AND she has Mother of my Children qualities, it begs the question:

What's the point to go on? Where is the value to me?

I don't think this really can be understood at a visceral level by men who haven't invested a lot of time and energy into a relationship, had it all end abruptly, and had nothing to show for when it was all said and done except for wasted time. It's easy to waste time when you are in your early 20's and you feel like you have unlimited amounts of it. But then you wake up one day many years later, look back on major time investments in your life, and then it hits you like 500 pounds of monkey crap to the face that you wasted several years for nothing.

You say to yourself: "Never again."

I think back to a LTR in my blue pill days (1+ year plus long, living together, serious) and how after it was all over, there was absolutely nothing to show for it. Just a gap in my life where nothing of consequence occurred. When I think about, it's almost like it never happened despite the fact it took up a giant chunk of time. I could have spent that time instead:

1) Traveling the world.
2) Banging new pussy.
3) Pursuing certain career opportunities.
4) Working on self-improvement.
5) <Anything else you could think up when not voluntarily tied down to a woman>

All opportunities lost. Forever. Never again.

[Dalaran1991]

(04-25-2016 01:36 AM)The Black Knight Wrote:  

I could have spent that time instead:

1) Traveling the world.
2) Banging new pussy.
3) Pursuing certain career opportunities.
4) Working on self-improvement.
5) <Anything else you could think up when not voluntarily tied down to a woman>

All opportunities lost. Forever. Never again.

How did this happen?

A LTR should never hamper your ability to work on yourself. In fact she should encourage it and actually help you do it.

My girl loves traveling with me and insisting on paying for her part even though she is a student and I work full time. She likes doing what I do so I'm just doing what I would be doing if single, but instead I have a fun companion.

I think that's the point of LTR, having a good companion to do what you already do in life + good sex.

Banging new pussy ==> tempted time to time, but this is another discussion.

And yes there's time investing in the girl sure, but it should be minimal if you and her are compatible.

Quote:

I think back to a LTR in my blue pill days (1+ year plus long, living together, serious)

I think this is the problem.

There's absolutely no fucking way I would cohabit with a woman. Even in my blue pill day for the biggest oneitis, I would still never consider that.

Familiarity breeds contempts, and your loss of privacy is enough to ruin any good LTR.

I think the whole discussion on LTR sometimes devolves into bogus because of the simple fact: there is a big fucking difference between a LTR and a good, functioning LTR.

Most LTR are dysfunctional (quote WIA), and so when people talk LTR this is what they think about. But that should not mean its what you should expect in a LTR.

[The Black Knight]

(04-25-2016 03:03 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

My girl loves traveling with me and insisting on paying for her part even though she is a student and I work full time. She likes doing what I do so I'm just doing what I would be doing if single, but instead I have a fun companion.

Of course she is down with whatever as a student. Wait until you got some time in with her, she graduates, her biological clock starts ticking, and she needs to make some career/life decisions. Let's see how go with the flow she is then. Nothing wrong with fun companions but why give them LTR status?

Quote:

I think that's the point of LTR, having a good companion to do what you already do in life + good sex.

If that's what you value, sure. A large point of my post was to illustrate the difference between having a red pill mindset towards LTRs (knowing what you value, having specific standards, and making sure you get a good deal out of the exchange) vs a blue pill mindset of just sort going with the flow because you have some chemistry with a chick despite there being numerous red flags regarding long-term value.

For you, you like having a hang out buddy you can fuck and calling it a LTR. I just call that a FWB and/or (non-exclusive) mini-LTR when in the first few months. In my world, you are getting the short end of the deal unless this girl has some amazing X factor about her.

You go on to say:

Quote:

Banging new pussy ==> tempted time to time, but this is another discussion.

and

Quote:

There's absolutely no fucking way I would cohabit with a woman. Even in my blue pill day for the biggest oneitis, I would still never consider that.

So, this is a real deal exclusive LTR where you don't even do some sport fucking on the side covertly?

And you think she is gonna be a happy-go-lucky student fun hang out buddy forever who doesn't want to move in eventually?

Are you OK with missing out on other bang/life opportunities for a exclusive relationship that is guaranteed by your own standards to lead to a break-up eventually?

Are you OK with leading a girl on for a substantial time period just so you can have a fun companion that you can bang as well? That's something you could get from a variety of women while not giving up your freedom. I have taken multi-night fun trips with women I have only had 1 date with prior and made them pay their share too. I could have LTR them if I wanted but chose not to. I got the fun companion time without forcing myself to be exclusive. The juice without the squeeze. In my mind for what I value, I won. To each and their own though.

Why are you even exclusive with this chick in the first place? What value does she bring to warrant you keeping your dick in a lockbox? You are tempted to get some fresh pussy but refuse to get any. At the very least, I hope you are getting a good deal out of your exclusive LTR that is on a path to NoWhere-Ville.

As I alluded to before, you don't get the time back.

[the-dream]

I'm only 20 so others will have a much better insight but this is what I realised recently...

Assuming that you will settle down eventually, you need experience in LTRs to know what qualities you want in a woman for a LRT/marriage.

The qualities of a woman that you value when looking for a fling (fun, sexy, available, adventurous) are quite different (and often the polar opposite) from the qualities that would make a good wife.

If you only have experience with flings, when you start looking for a wife, you will subconsciously still be filtering for the fling qualities which are red flags for wife material.

Even if you're not, you won't know what these red flags (and green flags) are if you haven't experienced any deeper relationships with good and bad women.

[Dalaran1991]

Quote:

And you think she is gonna be a happy-go-lucky student fun hang out buddy forever who doesn't want to move in eventually?

With this girl, yes. And if any girl ever wants to move in, I'll tell them no and if they insist they can GTFO.

Quote:

Are you OK with missing out on other bang/life opportunities for a exclusive relationship that is guaranteed by your own standards to lead to a break-up eventually?

I honestly don't see what else I'm missing on, other than bang with other girls. I had fun with the later. When the LTR eventually ends I will be back on the market better than ever and resume gaming. In the end for me 100 bangs vs 80 bangs is not that much of a difference.

Quote:

LTR that is on a path to NoWhere-Ville.

I think this is where our fundamental difference lies. Why does a LTR has to lead anywhere? I dont intend to do anything with anyone of my LTR other than simply a lifestyle change from gaming girls actively.

She brings plenty of value, doesn't touch any of my boundary (good family, no male friend, etc) and I learned a lot about myself with her than I did farming girls outside. Tied in with what e-dream said, if one days you plan to settle down a LTR gives you a good idea of what it would be like/not like.

To each their own I guess. I feel like for you a LTR has to be an investment i.e by the time you break up you must have gained xxxx compared to yyyy you put in. For me it is simply a change in lifestyle that in the end the pro cancels out the cons.

[Nascimento]

Speaking as another younger guy, in my experience there are more benefits to being single and playing the field than being in a mini-relationship or anything that's more serious.

But, there's no harm in balance, and it's actually nice to get in a mini-relationship every so often. Fewer things are better than the company and love of a girl you have strong chemistry with. Why not enjoy it while it lasts?

[therealpoder]

LTRs without the promise of marriage is a benefit to men who are unable or unwilling to date and pursue new women.

LTRs are only a cost to men who can easily bang other women as least as hot as his girlfriend and don't care about the non sex benefits to a relationship, such as emotional and/or financial support.

Assuming you have a good girlfriend, you get the benefits of marriage with few of the costs. Also, if your girlfriend is young, you get her in her prime years. And unlike marriage, you can drop her for any reason and it is largely cost less.

LTRs without the promise of marriage are a negative to women because they are giving sex and all the other amenities of marriage without getting commitment. This is why when women are older they tend to demand a marriage proposal a lot sooner that an 18 year old girl for example.

LTRs without the promise of marriage are largely a waste of time for any women and largely a waste of time for men who can get attractive women easily. But then, some people do like casual dating the same person without marriage, at least at first. And once men get older, they tend to prefer one good woman as opposed to sleeping with tons of women. So it depends.

To illustrate:

A man enters a LTR from 20 - 30: his costs are the other women he could've banged. But if he didn't want to bang other women or didn't have the game to, he didn't lose anything.

A woman enters a LTR from 20 - 30: she lost 10 years of beauty and prime reproductive years. Even if she doesn't want kids, because she lost beauty, it's harder for her to get the same quality of man as she could have when she was 20.

[LeoneVolpe]

The thing you have to remember is that whether you're spinning plates or in a long-term relationship, both require A LOT of work. It just depends on what kind of work you'd rather do.

The Relationship Life-Cycle, as far as I can tell:

You start out a being a single guy just looking for a girl. Soon, you realize if you put all your effort into just one, you become needy and clingy which inevitably turn her off and thus lessen your chances of a successful pick-up. So, you decide to branch out and cast a wider net. Now you're adopting an abundance mentality instead of one of scarcity. Generally, your pick-up attempts will run much smoother when operating from this mindset. The more interactions you have with girls, both positive and negative, the better. You'll learn what they like and don't like, but more importantly you'll learn what you like and don't like. Eventually, girls will notice how at ease you are around them and sensing your experience will start asking questions, like "Are you a player?" Of course, through your repeated dealings with women, you'll have learned and be able to charmingly deflect such "shit tests" and continue moving the interaction forward, escalating physically and eventually closing.

Spinning plates can be a lot of fun, but it's also inevitably a lot of drama. You'll build harems, you'll lose harems. You'll have girls flake on you at any time for any reason. Eventually, you decide it might be worth sticking with just one girl for a while, the one you like the best. Maybe you've even convinced yourself you've been doing it all wrong by living an empty, hedonistic lifestyle but now you've found the "right" girl, you're ready to give up your womanizing ways. The problem is, the moment you drop your other hoes, you've now adopted a scarcity mentality rather than one of abundance. You start taking shit from your girl because "she's the only one" and in time, your girl starts to feel your neediness and grows resentful. LTRs are not arrangements most beneficial to men, they're a woman's turf. She knows that as long as you're seeing her and only her, it'll be your "job" to keep her happy...at least as long as you want to continue getting semi-regular access to her vagina. You've now gone from an attractive alpha with ice in his veins, able to "next" a girl over the slightest offense knowing you had plenty of other girls in your contacts to choose from, to a sad-sack whose backslide to beta has been nothing short of pathetic.

When you're single, if you don't like what you're getting from a girl, you don't chase 'em, you replace 'em. When you're in a relationship, unless you're willing to think outside the box (cheat), you're stuck trying to work things out when they go wrong, which inevitably they will. You can pick your battles as best you can, but to think you'll ever be able to maintain frame 100% of the time and stay in a relationship just isn't very likely. Eventually, you're going to have to compromise on something you don't want compromise about. The only alternatives, as I can see them, are to either cheat (thus recreating your former abundance mentality), or to leave the relationship completely, which is often easier said than done. At that point, you've learned the harsh lesson of what can happen when you focus all your effort on just one girl, how needy and clingy you can become and now once again you're just a guy out there looking for a girl...by way of looking for many.

[trainwreck]

(05-01-2016 10:54 AM)LeoneVolpe Wrote:  

Spinning plates can be a lot of fun, but it's also inevitably a lot of drama. You'll build harems, you'll lose harems. You'll have girls flake on you at any time for any reason. Eventually, you decide it might be worth sticking with just one girl for a while, the one you like the best.

Lol this is exactly where I'm at now. Been single 2 years and recently asked myself how the hell I can build a second business when I'm using half my day's worth of mindpower to figure out how to get laid. add to the fact that I have a bunch of trips that I would like to do with a cool chick (Italy, going on Safari), I'm now in "maybe i should just find a cute girl to stick with" territory

[LeoneVolpe]

(05-01-2016 04:53 PM)trainwreck Wrote:  

(05-01-2016 10:54 AM)LeoneVolpe Wrote:  

Spinning plates can be a lot of fun, but it's also inevitably a lot of drama. You'll build harems, you'll lose harems. You'll have girls flake on you at any time for any reason. Eventually, you decide it might be worth sticking with just one girl for a while, the one you like the best.

Lol this is exactly where I'm at now. Been single 2 years and recently asked myself how the hell I can build a second business when I'm using half my day's worth of mindpower to figure out how to get laid. add to the fact that I have a bunch of trips that I would like to do with a cool chick (Italy, going on Safari), I'm now in "maybe i should just find a cute girl to stick with" territory

Yep, we've all been there. The amount of mental energy expended in trying to snag some poon is unreal. I really think if we could all just forget about getting laid for any significant length of time and harness that creative energy elsewhere, we'd all figure out how to be millionaires. When it comes to girls, I think one important lesson is to always be willing to walk away...I don't care if you've been seeing her for ten days or ten years, if ever the situation becomes too much to bear, get out of there.

[Burt Gummer]

The purpose of an LTR is to have children, plain and simple.

Don't get married. Or have her sign a prenup if you have to get married (you are in position of scrutiny/power). Pop the babies out.

If you raise the kids right then by the time she may divorce you rolls around the kids should be well off( This is the Donald Trump approach to marriage).

[Valentine]

(04-21-2016 03:32 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

To me, LTRs seem like giving your balls to a woman on the promise that she'll routinely drain them.

You don't have to give your balls over, but the idea is that yes, now you've got a low maintenance chick to routinely drain your balls.

This is the reason why many businessmen get married - because they're too busy with their own projects to keep going out picking up new chicks. It's too time-consuming otherwise.

[doc holliday]

You know as a guy coming out of a 20 year marriage, the whole LTR/player conundrum is something I'm trying to wrap my head around as I try to figure out where I go from here. At this moment, I most certainly do not want any sort of LTR for obvious reasons. However, I agree with the fact that to be a player takes a tremendous amount of energy which can make it difficult to focus on more important things like your own well being, career etc (at least I consider these to be more important). I would think for younger guys chasing younger women that mini ltr's, fwb's etc would be easier to set up since a lot of younger chicks are cool with these types of arrangements but generally if the chick starts liking you, she's going to want more than being your fwb.

The conclusion I've begun to accept is that no matter what arrangement you have be it ONS chasing, mini LTRs, plates, pussy is a massive time , energy and eventually a money sink. A lot of guys go into LTRs thinking that they can rest now and not have to game or put much time into the deal but I think that in an LTR you have to up your game tremendously to keep her interested, and to keep yourself interested. Even though 20-25 years ago it was indeed easier to do LTRs as the women weren't quite as bad as they are now, it still wasn't easy. It still took a lot of effort. I remember when I met my ex wife, she was cool in the LTR that we had. We'd fuck all the time, she was feminine, pleasant and fun to be around. That all changed after we got married and had kids, after which her expectations went through the roof. Nothing I did ever made her happy and it was inevitable that she would pull the plug at some point in time. I began to run asshole game on her throughout the rest of the marriage once I got sick of her bs and managed to keep her in place for 20 years but it was exhausting and ultimately, it failed.

I think for younger guys, doing an LTR is fine, especially if you don't have a lot of time to go out and pick up chicks but you got to be ready to bail on it if she starts acting up. LTRs without oneitis can serve your purposes well. Dread game is your best weapon here by far to keep her ass in line. Once she goes of the rails though, you have to get rid of her without remorse. Its the guys who can't do this (these days its most guys) who end up getting all messed up. Bottom line is that guys should keep all these various iterations of female interaction as options and employ them as your lifestyle dictates. The key is to not get too invested in whatever you have going on with females at that moment because it can change quickly. A true man doesn't allow women to dictate his happiness and lifestyle. Those who base their self worth on women are the ones who get into trouble.

[John Michael Kane]

I'm 32 and want to get married. I want children. Any LTR I have is solely for the purposes of screening for a potential wife. Pretty simple, right?

[HonantheBarbarian]

Doc_holiday, that sounds like a pretty solid relationship to last for 20 years. What exactly "broke the camels back" in the end?

[doc holliday]

Honan, it wasn't one thing, it was a bunch of stuff. We grew apart, had different views as to what was important in life, how to raise our kids and so on. She threatened for years to divorce me so I stopped giving a rats ass about making her happy and did what I thought was best for my family. She saw that I stopped caring about what she thought which made her more angry. It became a downward spiral to where I basically dared her to divorce me every time she mentioned it. Like I said, by the end and through the divorce I was playing asshole game on steroids with her. She of course claimed she was being abused but they all say that nonsense when they're called out on their bs. Bottom line is that we're both strong willed and stubborn which is a bad mix. I guess it lasted 20 yrs because we wanted the marriage to work for our kids sake so we made it last as long as we could without killing each other. I do give her credit for sticking in the marriage for 20 yrs but fault her for not deferring to me and putting the family above her needs.

[HonantheBarbarian]

Damn.. I'm sorry to hear that.

I think someone once mentioned that when all she responds to is dread/asshole game, the relationship is doa.

[Off The Reservation]

(05-04-2016 08:54 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

I'm 32 and want to get married. I want children. Any LTR I have is solely for the purposes of screening for a potential wife. Pretty simple, right?

44 and feel the same way