[Yeti]

Puerto Rico is part of the U.S. You can take a domestic flight from Puerto Rico to Miami without using a passport.

[el conquistador]

This policy has come from the ruling classes and those high up in politics.

Whenever I've asked a Dominican person about Haitian immigrants, they've expressed nothing but sympathy and understanding for their situations.

The Haitians are always the butt of jokes around here but it's always good natured.

I doubt they will deport many. If they did, where would they find construction workers and street vendors?

[porscheguy]

(06-18-2015 03:01 PM)Bones707 Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 01:10 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

If we deport all the mexicans I'm sure the millennials here with step right up to the plate and cover the jobs they'll leave behind.

Not sure if they will. Lots of jobs those illegals have pays like shit. I have worked with illegals before when I worked in plumbing and those jobs always pay like shit and shitty conditions. If they paid better, then I'm sure native born people would jump in.

Those jobs pay like shit because they're held by illegals. Illegals cause a surplus in the labor market that devalues labor. Remove the illegals and the labor surplus goes away. When that happens, businesses must then compete for the commodity that's in limited supply (i.e. labor.) How do they compete? By paying more.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

(06-19-2015 03:50 PM)el conquistador Wrote:  

This policy has come from the ruling classes and those high up in politics.

Whenever I've asked a Dominican person about Haitian immigrants, they've expressed nothing but sympathy and understanding for their situations.

The Haitians are always the butt of jokes around here but it's always good natured.

I doubt they will deport many. If they did, where would they find construction workers and street vendors?

The Dominican Republic suffers from high unemployment and underemployment with the unemployment rate nearing 15%[1][2]; there will be plenty of Dominicans to fill-in the jobs and vacancies left by the deportees. As others have said, illegal immigrants and Dominican-born stateless workers are paid much less than those legally residing and working within the Republic's territory. Naturally, this has resulted in lower wages for Dominican workers who are forced to compete with cheaper Haitian and stateless labourers. I doubt Medina's government will be capable of such a massive operation possibly involving over a hundred thousand people not to mention the legal problem that arises with Dominican-born stateless individuals who aren't citizens of the Dominican Republic, the Republic of Haiti or any recognised state for that matter but it is hard to see how this would negatively impact non-Haitians in the Dominican Republic.

(06-18-2015 10:46 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I understand the rational arguments that Sonsowey and Major have presented because there is some truth in them, but this situation definitely has a racial element to it.

The Dominican government gave white Jews land, some cows, and a mule to come to the country at the same time it was committing mass murder against Haitians who couldn't pronounce "perejil".

Nearly 80 years later, the government is kicking them out, even those who have established themselves in the country legally, but isn't doing shit about the fact that thousands of its own people hop on yolas every month to enter Puerto Rico illegally, which often leads to them using the island as a stepping stone to getting to the U.S., surprise, illegally!

The hypocrisy is embarrassing.

I hate to sound overly brash but that's not our problem. Yes, many of our nationals have chosen to depart their country, the Dominican Republic, for 'more promising lands' such as the United States and Spain. Furthermore, many move there illegally but honestly I don't see how the authorities - Dominican authorities that is - are being hypocritical here; they haven't told or encouraged Dominican citizens to move elsewhere illegally and they lack the willpower and ability to prevent them from leaving the island in an illicit manner. Ultimately, it's America's choice to deport Dominican citizens illegally residing within its borders; we won't complain. If America chooses to let them stay that's also they're choice and the American government is entirely within its right to do such a thing although I wouldn't recommend it. What I'm trying to say is, the Dominican government should not base its decision and treatment of foreigners on the decisions and treatment of Dominican citizens undertaken by a foreign government.

[jariel]

(06-19-2015 06:12 PM)Porfirio Rubirosa Wrote:  

I hate to sound overly brash but that's not our problem. Yes, many of our nationals have chosen to depart their country, the Dominican Republic, for 'more promising lands' such as the United States and Spain. Furthermore, many move there illegally but honestly I don't see how the authorities - Dominican authorities that is - are being hypocritical here; they haven't told or encouraged Dominican citizens to move elsewhere illegally and they lack the willpower and ability to prevent them from leaving the island in an illicit manner.

I'm assuming you're Dominican as well or live there, again, I understand the situation, and you have added to a number of salient points that have already been made, but that doesn't change the fact that this isn't just about policy, racism is the main ingredient in this political sancocho. It always has been, and it always will be. You have one group of people that is considered Black, and you have another group that wants to be considered anything but Black, they don't want any association with it, so now they are going through this process of "ethnic purging", hiding behind politics and fake concern for the people to do it.

[Sonsowey]

Jariel the fact that there is racism in the mix does not mean that the results cannot be positive.

If there are fewer Haitians around working for low wages those jobs will be available to Dominicans who may demand a slightly higher wage. If Haitians in the D.R. cause other problems - unskilled immigrants who speak a different language often do - then fewer Haitians around will help.

[jariel]

I think the court ruling really needs to be read, because some of the responses suggest that it hasn't been.

The Dominican Constitutional Court is dating this shit back to 1929. We're not talking about displaced Haitians after the 2010 earthquake, we're talking about people who have literally spent their entire lives on that part of the island, we're talking about generations of Haitian people with Dominican roots.

Please explain to me a legitimate basis for this ruling.

I mean we can rationalize it and say "Well, the Dominican government can't take care of the Haitians", well is that the expectation? The government doesn't even take care of its own people, so that is not really the problem.

The history speaks for itself, how we're looking for positives from initiatives that are solely based off racism is beyond me, the fact that we're in 2015 means little to nothing.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

(06-19-2015 07:35 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I'm assuming you're Dominican as well or live there, again, I understand the situation, and you have added to a number of salient points that have already been made, but that doesn't change the fact that this isn't just about policy, racism is the main ingredient in this political sancocho. It always has been, and it always will be. You have one group of people that is considered Black, and you have another group that wants to be considered anything but Black, they don't want any association with it, so now they are going through this process of "ethnic purging", hiding behind politics and fake concern for the people to do it.

Yes, I carry a Dominican passport along with two more from EU countries and I live in the UK. There's definitely an anti-Haitian sentiment which you could describe as xenophobia but I wouldn't call it racism; people dislike Haitians not all blacks. After all, the Cocolos and Samaná Americans aren't getting deported and they're unarguably black. You do raise a valid point as to black and mulatto Dominicans' wish to describe themselves as tringueños or indios; they refuse to refer to themselves as black and generally value their European ancestry. However, I don't think that is relevant to the topic at hand.

PS Spanish-language newspapers are copying the same article over and over again. Says a lot about our journalistic quality.

[jariel]

(06-19-2015 09:40 PM)Porfirio Rubirosa Wrote:  

Yes, I carry a Dominican passport along with two more from EU countries and I live in the UK. There's definitely an anti-Haitian sentiment which you could describe as xenophobia but I wouldn't call it racism; people dislike Haitians not all blacks. After all, the Cocolos and Samaná Americans aren't getting deported and they're unarguably black. You do raise a valid point as to black and mulatto Dominicans' wish to describe themselves as tringueños or indios; they refuse to refer to themselves as black and generally value their European ancestry. However, I don't think that is relevant to the topic at hand.

Racism, colorism, other -isms are very much at play in this discussion, I mean, even Dominicans refer to Black Americans as "n****s", so that tells me a lot about their psychosis and self-hate that I don't share.

Your perspective is appreciated, at least you're not some dude who thinks he understands this shit because he went down for a few weeks and scooped up barrio pussy.

[Bones707]

(06-19-2015 04:29 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 03:01 PM)Bones707 Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 01:10 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

If we deport all the mexicans I'm sure the millennials here with step right up to the plate and cover the jobs they'll leave behind.

Not sure if they will. Lots of jobs those illegals have pays like shit. I have worked with illegals before when I worked in plumbing and those jobs always pay like shit and shitty conditions. If they paid better, then I'm sure native born people would jump in.

Those jobs pay like shit because they're held by illegals. Illegals cause a surplus in the labor market that devalues labor. Remove the illegals and the labor surplus goes away. When that happens, businesses must then compete for the commodity that's in limited supply (i.e. labor.) How do they compete? By paying more.

It can go both ways. Honestly, a lot of the jobs that those illegals have just plain suck ass. I'm not even talking construction; I'm talking jobs that are the likes of picking fruits and vegetables or working in warehousing. Illegals go to those jobs because they are so desperate to stay in the U.S that they will bite the billet and work those crap jobs. If those illegals are deported, yes, wages might go up but even then, I can't be sure if millenials and Gen X of the likes will jump to those jobs. Far too many cupcakes, even within here on the forum; way too many cupcakes in millenials and Gen X.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

(06-19-2015 10:56 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Racism, colorism, other -isms are very much at play in this discussion, I mean, even Dominicans refer to Black Americans as "n****s", so that tells me a lot about their psychosis and self-hate that I don't share.

Your perspective is appreciated, at least you're not some dude who thinks he understands this shit because he went down for a few weeks and scooped up barrio pussy.

Fair enough. To be fair, scooping up barrio pussy is probably better than dealing with snobbish rich girls.

I should add I wasn't raised in the DR; my parents were in the diplomatic service.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I've changed my opinion on the matter and believe this to be disadvantageous to the Dominican economy at least in the short-term as costs would rise, demand would decrease and productivity would also go down.

[pitt]

Many of Haitians immigrants have started to leave before they are even deported. They understand that if they are caught in the streets, they would just get deported without their personal goods so they would rather leave now before they are deported.

I doubt they will deport Haitians that were born here, the Dominican cats with Haitian ancestry are not even worried about being deported to Haiti because they know that this isn't likely to happen (don't believe everything you are reading online).

I think every country has the right to run their own country in whatever way they feel like.There are 2 to 3 million illegal Haitians in the country, that's a lot of people and remember that DR already has a high number of unemployed people and the country doesn't offer great economic opportunities. Sharing their limited resources with their neighboring country wouldn't help them to move forward.

Note that DR has helped Haiti a lot during their earthquake and many Haitians immigrated here and had the opportunity to improve their lives (unfortunately the good things DR did for Haiti is never mentioned). Racism here is nothing compared to many European countries. The thing that sucks is that you see black people not loving their own, they neglect themselves, nobody here wants to believe that they are black, even though all I see is black people here. I probably should take this back, it's not like black people in other parts of the world are in love with themselves!

Not to sound like a dick but most of Haitian immigrants here are not really bringing much value to the country, the worst of Haiti has moved over here. If I was the DR president, I would probably deport half of them too.

I understand that the DR economy will suffer some setback from this situation but let DR deal with it in whatever way they feel like.

[Latinopan]

(06-26-2015 06:22 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Many of Haitians immigrants have started to leave before they are even deported. They understand that if they are caught in the streets, they would just get deported without their personal goods so they would rather leave now before they are deported.

I doubt they will deport Haitians that were born here, the Dominican cats with Haitian ancestry are not even worried about being deported to Haiti because they know that this isn't likely to happen (don't believe everything you are reading online).

I think every country has the right to run their own country in whatever way they feel like.There are 2 to 3 million illegal Haitians in the country, that's a lot of people and remember that DR already has a high number of unemployed people and the country doesn't offer great economic opportunities. Sharing their limited resources with their neighboring country wouldn't help them to move forward.

Note that DR has helped Haiti a lot during their earthquake and many Haitians immigrated here and had the opportunity to improve their lives (unfortunately the good things DR did for Haiti is never mentioned). Racism here is nothing compared to many European countries. The thing that sucks is that you see black people not loving their own, they neglect themselves, nobody here wants to believe that they are black, even though all I see is black people here. I probably should take this back, it's not like black people in other parts of the world are in love with themselves!

Not to sound like a dick but most of Haitian immigrants here are not really bringing much value to the country, the worst of Haiti has moved over here. If I was the DR president, I would probably deport half of them too.

I understand that the DR economy will suffer some setback from this situation but let DR deal with it in whatever way they feel like.

DR is having the same problem as USA, corporations want the cheap labor from across the border, the CEA (State Sugar Council) started bringing Haitians back in the mid 20th century as cheap labor, the flow grew over years, the Vicini family, one of the most powerful families in DR brought hundred of thousands of Haitians to work in the Vicini family sugar plantation, the construction sector hired most Haitians now because they can pay 3 Haitians to work for what it requires hire only one Dominican, so is like Americans are accused of being lazy and not wanting to to the job, when in reality is the native population wont do it for that low salary.

Another factor to consider is the history of how Haiti gained its Independence, they revolted against the French, killed them, and the few that were alive escape back to France, then Haiti went to the Dominican side that was under Spain control, took control of it, but the Dominican and Spain relationship was not that bad, for example stuff like interracial marriage was the norm back then in DR, one of the founding father was half Spaniard half Dominican, when DR gained its independence from Haiti there were still good relationship between Europeans and Dominicans, that is why many of the powerful families in DR have European origin, they came back started business, Haiti did not have that, the French never wanted to go back and invest in Haiti. We can say that DR success is related to having more influence from Western European countries, and American more in the late 20th century.

In fact France made Haiti pay for reparation and recognition as a sovereign country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti they still owns France money up to this day.

Other problem was the mass destruction of what French left behind, Haitians started destroying everything France built there while it was a colony, so they destroyed the first infrastructure they ever had, in contrast Dominicans still have what Spain built there, and is one of the most touristic attractions

The Colonial Zone






Another thing is what Stefan Molyneux says in many of his videos, when the best and smarter people of a country start to leave, the country will never progress, the best Haitians leave Haiti, and almost never go back, look for example how Wyclef Jean was born in Haiti but lived his entire live in USA since he was 14.


Or look at a beauty pageant Sarodj Bertin, born in Haiti but grew up in DR,


She is a TV host model and actress in DR now. These people will not have future in Haiti now they are famous and with money, Haiti do not have the economy to sustain high paying people like them, they just not go back to live there.

Something the international community never mention is that Haiti is still heavenly dependent on DR, if it was not for DR Haiti would have succumbed into...... I do not know, Cannibalism? Haiti gets food from DR, there is not agricultural, they simple do not produce anything, meat, eggs, chicken, every single things Haiti gets to eat is coming from DR, if DR really hated Haiti they simple have let them to starve to death, they would have not helped during the earthquake opening the air space so planes can use Dominicans airports to bring aid, even when it was discovered that due to death bodies after the earthquake the cholera started to spread among Haitians, even then the Dominicans did not close the border.

This is the market in the Haiti-RD border where Haitians buy products from DR.

And lets not forget the mass deforestation as high as 90% of all Haiti

The picture is to big, Haiti on the left, DR on the right.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...tation.jpg

Is very easy to talk when you have oceans to divide, but when you share the island with the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, is really hard when people call the country xenophobic and racist.


I think USA, DR, Sweden and every single country should deport every single illegals, in order to have stable country you need to have stable immigration process, you can't make a country success when you do not know who is in the country first.

[aSimpNamedBrokeback]

I stumbled across this video a while ago and it reminded me of this thread. He makes alot of good points.

[Moma]

Damn, that video dropped some salient points. Are there any resident Haitians on the board that can co-sign this or counter what the comedian is saying?

[Latinopan]

(04-19-2016 10:11 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Damn, that video dropped some salient points. Are there any resident Haitians on the board that can co-sign this or counter what the comedian is saying?

Any Haitians can tell you he is telling 100% true, despite what the media says about DR, Haitians get preferential treatment compared to other immigrants from other countries, heck, they got a path to legalization, and yet, many still did not make it, the main problem is the Haitian government simple do not want to fix its problem, they can just let DR deals with it, is similar to what Mexico does with USA, why worry to make a better living for the people when they just walk over there?

Hospitals in DR can't deal with the number of Haitians giving birth, and they have lots and lots of kid, contraception is unknown to them, the average Haitian woman has 4-5 kid, in many hospitals they attend more Haitians than they do Dominicans, and close to the border Dominicans have to go the the capital because the hospitals are full of Haitians crossing over to get attention.

And remember they do not pay taxes, on a related note he speaks at 6:00, one reason many Haitians do not want to legalize is because they will have to start paying taxes, one problem they also have is they want to live in DR but want to keep the backward culture like voodoo, and witchcraft, they want to be in DR but they won't assimilate, and they are taught the island is "one and indivisible", these words were said by Jean-Pierre Boyer, the Haitian president that took control of DR, so what do you tell people that quote the guy that did not see division between Haiti and DR? many Haitians simple are raised their entire live believing there should not be division between the two countries, because they do not see two countries, they see an island, therefore there is not reason to divide it in their minds.

Is not to expand to much, but like Stefan Molyneux says a lot in his videos, having a low IQ population moving in is not good for the host country, the average Haiti IQ is 67........let me repeat.......67.......again........67, how do you make a country progress with immigrants arriving with that level of IQ? DR has average IQ of 82 but they have manage move forward, the fact that Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere with Human Development in the last place 20th, while DR is 13th while they share the same island let you know the problem of culture is deeper.

Something you never see is Haitian government criticizing Bahamas for the way they treat illegals Haitians there (search on google images "Haitians Bahamas"), Bahamas will deport illegals Haitians children found in the streets alone back to Haiti without parents, and treat them differently to other illegals aliens, but because DR is right there is easier to complain about the next door guy.

[Moma]

LatinoPan, I have heard about Haitians in Bahamas. I've not had the chance to really mingle with Haitians here. There are tons here but I've not yet assimilated. Time will tell. Viva la republica Dominicana!