The size vs speed argument is only relevant when both parties are the same weight.
Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
To the OP, why not get on a weight training program?
As mentioned before, no one wins in a fight.
As mentioned before, no one wins in a fight.
Quote: (03-20-2016 12:05 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:
To the OP, why not get on a weight training program?
As mentioned before, no one wins in a fight.
I'm already going to the gym and on regular weight training, some variation of stronglift.
As I said Im not looking for a fight, its more a focus for my own martial training. At my height and weight going into a fight unarmed, no matter how skilled I am, is just stupid and not brave.
Ass or cash, nobody rides for free - WestIndiArchie
OP, it is normal to wonder about such things when first starting out. Maybe I say that to justify my own random questions ![[Image: lol.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/new/lol.gif)
Fortunately, there are guys on the forum who have actually seen physical confrontations or been in them and are generous enough to share the reality.
Keep plugging away to improve yourself. We should all be trying to grow as men.
This thread will help someone else. May I even stretch it and say help someone from getting hurt unnecessarily. So that is a good thing.
Fortunately, there are guys on the forum who have actually seen physical confrontations or been in them and are generous enough to share the reality.
Keep plugging away to improve yourself. We should all be trying to grow as men.
This thread will help someone else. May I even stretch it and say help someone from getting hurt unnecessarily. So that is a good thing.
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."
Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone
Great RVF Comments | Where Evil Resides | How to upload, etc. | New Members Read This 1 | New Members Read This 2
Agree with much here about just taking up a martial aren't for its own sake and enjoyment of it, rather than thinking it will help much in a real street fight.
Street fighting is a mugs game with only a few possible outcomes. You lose and risk serious injury or you win but sooner or later face arrest or reprisals. Like any skill, the only way to really improve is to do it, regularly, but doing this becomes a vicious cycle of repeatedly spinning the wheel of fortune in a world no intelligent person should want to inhabit, where drama, strife, aggression and fighting is a way of life.
Intelligent people born into this life can escape from it but most don't. I don't recommend young, normal guys go there to test themselves, it can be a slippery slope where you wake up one day wondering what went wrong in your life.
In my experience, you don't need a lot of training to be a good street fighter, just enough to be strong, a good puncher with maybe some basic takedown defence/wrestling ability.
What you do need is a nasty streak in you that takes some pleasure from it which in my experience, usually only comes from an emotionally hard upbringing.
All the training in the world means nothing if you can't use it 'cause your arse goes when faced with real menacing aggression, which it mostly will if you never experienced it before.
The only way to overcome that is to face it over and over until you learn to feel the adrenaline but control your shakes and your cracking voice, to front people out and back them down when your shitting yourself inside and when that doesn't work, knowing when to go and how to go, and that's when the training (and that nasty streak) comes in handy.
This can all be exciting in your early twenties but in the end, it's easily and best avoided if your serious about living a good and happy life.
Street fighting is a mugs game with only a few possible outcomes. You lose and risk serious injury or you win but sooner or later face arrest or reprisals. Like any skill, the only way to really improve is to do it, regularly, but doing this becomes a vicious cycle of repeatedly spinning the wheel of fortune in a world no intelligent person should want to inhabit, where drama, strife, aggression and fighting is a way of life.
Intelligent people born into this life can escape from it but most don't. I don't recommend young, normal guys go there to test themselves, it can be a slippery slope where you wake up one day wondering what went wrong in your life.
In my experience, you don't need a lot of training to be a good street fighter, just enough to be strong, a good puncher with maybe some basic takedown defence/wrestling ability.
What you do need is a nasty streak in you that takes some pleasure from it which in my experience, usually only comes from an emotionally hard upbringing.
All the training in the world means nothing if you can't use it 'cause your arse goes when faced with real menacing aggression, which it mostly will if you never experienced it before.
The only way to overcome that is to face it over and over until you learn to feel the adrenaline but control your shakes and your cracking voice, to front people out and back them down when your shitting yourself inside and when that doesn't work, knowing when to go and how to go, and that's when the training (and that nasty streak) comes in handy.
This can all be exciting in your early twenties but in the end, it's easily and best avoided if your serious about living a good and happy life.
Quote: (03-25-2016 07:14 AM)SuperBock Wrote:
Agree with much here about just taking up a martial aren't for its own sake and enjoyment of it, rather than thinking it will help much in a real street fight.
Street fighting is a mugs game with only a few possible outcomes. You lose and risk serious injury or you win but sooner or later face arrest or reprisals. Like any skill, the only way to really improve is to do it, regularly, but doing this becomes a vicious cycle of repeatedly spinning the wheel of fortune in a world no intelligent person should want to inhabit, where drama, strife, aggression and fighting is a way of life.
Intelligent people born into this life can escape from it but most don't. I don't recommend young, normal guys go there to test themselves, it can be a slippery slope where you wake up one day wondering what went wrong in your life.
In my experience, you don't need a lot of training to be a good street fighter, just enough to be strong, a good puncher with maybe some basic takedown defence/wrestling ability.
What you do need is a nasty streak in you that takes some pleasure from it which in my experience, usually only comes from an emotionally hard upbringing.
All the training in the world means nothing if you can't use it 'cause your arse goes when faced with real menacing aggression, which it mostly will if you never experienced it before.
The only way to overcome that is to face it over and over until you learn to feel the adrenaline but control your shakes and your cracking voice, to front people out and back them down when your shitting yourself inside and when that doesn't work, knowing when to go and how to go, and that's when the training (and that nasty streak) comes in handy.
This can all be exciting in your early twenties but in the end, it's easily and best avoided if your serious about living a good and happy life.
Awesome post filled with Truth & Red Pill knowledge, which inevitably leads me to this point: The whole thing is mental masturbation. If you want to be a real masculine intimidating figure, work every second, every day of your life at becoming the richest most cutthroat businessman you can be. Forget the world of "daydreaming" hypothetical street fighting. As has already been mentioned many times over, train for competition, confidence and enjoyment.
Quote: (03-25-2016 09:45 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:
If you want to be a real masculine intimidating figure, work every second, every day of your life at becoming the richest most cutthroat businessman you can be.
Like this guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Denton
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."
Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone
Great RVF Comments | Where Evil Resides | How to upload, etc. | New Members Read This 1 | New Members Read This 2
As a rule of thumb, size>other factors given a base level of competence and toughness. Though, as always, there are exceptions to the rule. Skill can win out once it hits a certain level and assuming the skill of the oversized guy is limited to a certain level. In general, size disparities are difficult to surmount in a fight. In my opinion, even top skilled guys only get a certain amount of size leeway that their skill can make up for; assuming the "size" isn't merely morbid obesity with no muscle.
Evenly matched street fights are faster, more stressful, and more violent that anything you will encounter in training. It's hard to throw and land a punch. It's hard to defend yourself against anyone even minorly skilled in taking you down. Most martial arts won't make up for size disparities or skill disparities if the other guy is trained in wrestling or grappling; aside from disabling shots to the groin, nose (difficult to land), neck (overly dangerous), etc.
There is no reason you can't train for speed and size. Unless you are taking steroids or plan to get seriously fat, your size gains won't max out anywhere near anything that will inhibit your speed significantly. My suggestion is to eat and lift as much as you can until you max out your natural size without extra body fat, and keep training for agility/speed. Most guys worried about "size" are too skinny and are overthinking the gains that will make them more formidable all-around.
Evenly matched street fights are faster, more stressful, and more violent that anything you will encounter in training. It's hard to throw and land a punch. It's hard to defend yourself against anyone even minorly skilled in taking you down. Most martial arts won't make up for size disparities or skill disparities if the other guy is trained in wrestling or grappling; aside from disabling shots to the groin, nose (difficult to land), neck (overly dangerous), etc.
There is no reason you can't train for speed and size. Unless you are taking steroids or plan to get seriously fat, your size gains won't max out anywhere near anything that will inhibit your speed significantly. My suggestion is to eat and lift as much as you can until you max out your natural size without extra body fat, and keep training for agility/speed. Most guys worried about "size" are too skinny and are overthinking the gains that will make them more formidable all-around.
From what I have seen, I would like to add to the conversation that the ability to take and shrug off non-lethal damage is important.
If you can't take a hit, then you definitely won't see the next one coming.
Makes you wonder if any of the shadier more aggressive MMA fighters have ever taken a little angeldust pre-fight.
I'm looking at you Ken Shamrock.
If you can't take a hit, then you definitely won't see the next one coming.
Makes you wonder if any of the shadier more aggressive MMA fighters have ever taken a little angeldust pre-fight.
I'm looking at you Ken Shamrock.
Train for BOTH!!!
You need both speed and strength!! However, conditioning, stamina, skill and poise might be more important than speed and strength.
IDENTIFY YOUR WEAKNESSES!!!
More specifically, Identify the weaknesses within your weight class!
At your weight class... Are you bigger and stronger than the other guys??? Or, are you are smaller and weaker???
At your weight class.. Are you faster or slower than most guys???
At your weight class.. What are your advantages??? Speed? Skill? Strength? Technical ability? Experience?
At your weight class.. What are your disadvantages??? Inexperience? Lack of stamina? Lack of skill?
These are the questions that matter.
You will NOT be fighting against guys outside of your weight class. So, the only thing that matters is preparing yourself to fight against the guys at your same weight.
Once you have identified your strengths and weaknesses, you can then begin to correct the weaknesses and maximize the strengths so that you can defeat guys at your weight.
Once you have identified your strengths and weaknesses, you can then begin to build your skills in order to defeat guys at your weight.
-- How to identify your strengths and weaknesses???
SPAR!! FIGHT!! BATTLE!! COMPETE!!
If you want to learn about fighting, you must get in the ring and fight!
When you return from battle, you will know what your strengths and weaknesses are.
Talking about fighting is just mental masturbation.
The real magic happens when you get in the ring and put your life on the line!
*****
About street fighting...
Street fighting is dumb because of the risk of injury and legal consequences.
You never know who you are messing with? His friends might be lurking near by.. He might have a weapon.. Someone might get hurt... You might go to jail.
Street fighting is dumb.
The best self defense is to avoid violent situations.
*****
About fighting bigger/stronger guys...
You can beat up a bigger/stronger guy..
You just have to highly skilled, highly experienced, have a nastier killer instinct, hurt him first, be in great shape, be really tough, have great defense, be a good athlete, be in much better shape, and hope he isn't an experienced fighter.
I've tried to beat up bigger/stronger guys.. It's a lot harder than it looks.
If you want the ability to beat up bigger/stronger guys... Get your ass in the ring and start learning how to fight. It will takes years to develop the necessary skills.
You need both speed and strength!! However, conditioning, stamina, skill and poise might be more important than speed and strength.
IDENTIFY YOUR WEAKNESSES!!!
More specifically, Identify the weaknesses within your weight class!
At your weight class... Are you bigger and stronger than the other guys??? Or, are you are smaller and weaker???
At your weight class.. Are you faster or slower than most guys???
At your weight class.. What are your advantages??? Speed? Skill? Strength? Technical ability? Experience?
At your weight class.. What are your disadvantages??? Inexperience? Lack of stamina? Lack of skill?
These are the questions that matter.
You will NOT be fighting against guys outside of your weight class. So, the only thing that matters is preparing yourself to fight against the guys at your same weight.
Once you have identified your strengths and weaknesses, you can then begin to correct the weaknesses and maximize the strengths so that you can defeat guys at your weight.
Once you have identified your strengths and weaknesses, you can then begin to build your skills in order to defeat guys at your weight.
-- How to identify your strengths and weaknesses???
SPAR!! FIGHT!! BATTLE!! COMPETE!!
If you want to learn about fighting, you must get in the ring and fight!
When you return from battle, you will know what your strengths and weaknesses are.
Talking about fighting is just mental masturbation.
The real magic happens when you get in the ring and put your life on the line!
*****
About street fighting...
Street fighting is dumb because of the risk of injury and legal consequences.
You never know who you are messing with? His friends might be lurking near by.. He might have a weapon.. Someone might get hurt... You might go to jail.
Street fighting is dumb.
The best self defense is to avoid violent situations.
*****
About fighting bigger/stronger guys...
You can beat up a bigger/stronger guy..
You just have to highly skilled, highly experienced, have a nastier killer instinct, hurt him first, be in great shape, be really tough, have great defense, be a good athlete, be in much better shape, and hope he isn't an experienced fighter.
I've tried to beat up bigger/stronger guys.. It's a lot harder than it looks.
If you want the ability to beat up bigger/stronger guys... Get your ass in the ring and start learning how to fight. It will takes years to develop the necessary skills.
I never understood why one can't have both. We'd have to be talking in extreme hypotheticals for this question to hold water. Of course, skill and experience trumps all. Every fight is situational.
One reason I would recommend being active in a full contact martial art is that body language matters a lot. There's a huge amount to be said for giving off a vibe that warns anyone nearby against fucking with you, and being comfortable with that is going to show in how you carry yourself....which can do a huge amount to deter anyone from being aggressive towards you to begin with.
Everyone is saying to avoid street fighting, and I support the claim 100%, but (it may be me) I feel a lot of posters giving out a vibe of "don't need to train martial arts, just control yourself and run fast."
My first Boxing - Muay Thai gym had a motto:
"It's better to know and not need, than to need and not know."
You cannot plan your future, street fights are mostly stupid and very unpredictable, but knowing how to dodge a punch and retaliate a punch/ear slap/ front kick gives you advantage. Even if it's just to eject the place you are.
Who knows if you're going to be mugged by a guy high on drugs with a gun/knife, and he wants something more than your wallet? Who knows if a group of 2 or 3 guys are going to violently harass you and your kids/girl? It's better to know and not need, than to need and not know.
Anyway, I think that size does matter in this case. Rarely someone will mess with bigger guys. I have also seen a post here where a user said that even though he lost speed/skills with size, his size was deterrent enough.
My first Boxing - Muay Thai gym had a motto:
"It's better to know and not need, than to need and not know."
You cannot plan your future, street fights are mostly stupid and very unpredictable, but knowing how to dodge a punch and retaliate a punch/ear slap/ front kick gives you advantage. Even if it's just to eject the place you are.
Who knows if you're going to be mugged by a guy high on drugs with a gun/knife, and he wants something more than your wallet? Who knows if a group of 2 or 3 guys are going to violently harass you and your kids/girl? It's better to know and not need, than to need and not know.
Anyway, I think that size does matter in this case. Rarely someone will mess with bigger guys. I have also seen a post here where a user said that even though he lost speed/skills with size, his size was deterrent enough.
Quote: (04-04-2016 10:42 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:
Anyway, I think that size does matter in this case. Rarely someone will mess with bigger guys.
Have to disagree to some point. In general true but there is something I call beer muscles. I've seen it when normal guys get drunk and start to mess around. The alcohol is running trough their body and they feel strong. So they want to test it with a bigger guy. A bouncer or just a buff guy that stands random next to them.
We will stand tall in the sunshine
With the truth upon our side
And if we have to go alone
We'll go alone with pride
For us, these conflicts can be resolved by appeal to the deeply ingrained higher principle embodied in the law, that individuals have the right (within defined limits) to choose how to live. But this Western notion of individualism and tolerance is by no means a conception in all cultures. - Theodore Dalrymple
I just met the local policeman for the area just over from me. He's probably 50, 6'5 and 250-270lbs. I'm 26, 6'1, a decent boxer and in good shape at 190lbs. This guy would rag doll me so easily it's not even funny. I'm half his age, and in much better shape, certainly more skilled as a fighter, and I would get completely and utterly squashed by him in unarmed combat. Probably without him having to make any great effort to do so.
I miss the posts Mikecf used to write about fighting. A lot can be said about keeping yourself healthy and avoid street fighting, but what about mental health? That same guy who talks about how street fighting is dumb over a few beers will be the first guy to call you a pussy if you back down from a fight.
Most of you train, spar, compete. I guess you haven't taught any new guys in a while then. Guys that have some size but can't throw anything other than a haymaker and actually hurt their wrists punching the heavy bag. Guys who can barely lift their legs high enough to do a low kick from sitting down all day.
Guys that call time and turtle up the first time they spar.
Since we complain so much about entitlement from women, i think we should complain about male entitlement too. Douchebags who never trained a day in their life and never accomplished anything worthy of respect, who for some reason think they are a god's gift to mankind and have this delusion that they can beat anyone for no other reason than "because i say so".
Those are the guys always looking for trouble, the gruesome stories you heard about guys going to the hospital practically dead are very rare, and in most cases fights guys barely end up with a bleeding nose.
H1N1 and Crashbangwallop are obviously very experienced in fighting and i respect their opinions, but maybe spending too much time with professional fighters can cause a very decent fighter too underestimate his skills against an untrained opponent. And the fact that you learn humility going through belts of a martial arts doesn't help either against a guy who will just mistake that as weakness in a street fight.
Most of you train, spar, compete. I guess you haven't taught any new guys in a while then. Guys that have some size but can't throw anything other than a haymaker and actually hurt their wrists punching the heavy bag. Guys who can barely lift their legs high enough to do a low kick from sitting down all day.
Guys that call time and turtle up the first time they spar.
Since we complain so much about entitlement from women, i think we should complain about male entitlement too. Douchebags who never trained a day in their life and never accomplished anything worthy of respect, who for some reason think they are a god's gift to mankind and have this delusion that they can beat anyone for no other reason than "because i say so".
Those are the guys always looking for trouble, the gruesome stories you heard about guys going to the hospital practically dead are very rare, and in most cases fights guys barely end up with a bleeding nose.
H1N1 and Crashbangwallop are obviously very experienced in fighting and i respect their opinions, but maybe spending too much time with professional fighters can cause a very decent fighter too underestimate his skills against an untrained opponent. And the fact that you learn humility going through belts of a martial arts doesn't help either against a guy who will just mistake that as weakness in a street fight.
I've seen too much horrific violence in nightlife in my city over the years to think about getting involved anymore over petty shit like losing face. I've been out a long time, and have some idea of who is who in certain areas of nightlife here, as I'd imagine does CBW, but it's not only about avoiding getting hurt, but also about self respect. I won't say that fighting isn't a rush, but getting girls and enjoying the night is all I care about, and I don't want to be the twat ruining the atmosphere for the other customers. If that makes me a pussy then so be it.
Quote: (04-05-2016 11:07 AM)dog24 Wrote:
I miss the posts Mikecf used to write about fighting. A lot can be said about keeping yourself healthy and avoid street fighting, but what about mental health? That same guy who talks about how street fighting is dumb over a few beers will be the first guy to call you a pussy if you back down from a fight.
Most of you train, spar, compete. I guess you haven't taught any new guys in a while then. Guys that have some size but can't throw anything other than a haymaker and actually hurt their wrists punching the heavy bag. Guys who can barely lift their legs high enough to do a low kick from sitting down all day.
Guys that call time and turtle up the first time they spar.
Since we complain so much about entitlement from women, i think we should complain about male entitlement too. Douchebags who never trained a day in their life and never accomplished anything worthy of respect, who for some reason think they are a god's gift to mankind and have this delusion that they can beat anyone for no other reason than "because i say so".
Those are the guys always looking for trouble, the gruesome stories you heard about guys going to the hospital practically dead are very rare, and in most cases fights guys barely end up with a bleeding nose.
H1N1 and Crashbangwallop are obviously very experienced in fighting and i respect their opinions, but maybe spending too much time with professional fighters can cause a very decent fighter too underestimate his skills against an untrained opponent. And the fact that you learn humility going through belts of a martial arts doesn't help either against a guy who will just mistake that as weakness in a street fight.
Dog, a lot of what you're saying certainly has a lot of truth to it...I don't really get what you are trying to say overall though mate.
Quote: (04-05-2016 02:08 PM)Kieran Wrote:
I've seen too much horrific violence in nightlife in my city over the years to think about getting involved anymore over petty shit like losing face. I've been out a long time, and have some idea of who is who in certain areas of nightlife here, as I'd imagine does CBW, but it's not only about avoiding getting hurt, but also about self respect. I won't say that fighting isn't a rush, but getting girls and enjoying the night is all I care about, and I don't want to be the twat ruining the atmosphere for the other customers. If that makes me a pussy then so be it.
Ah man. It's been a long time since I've seen a proper, proper fight out at night. Hotels and restaurants are where you'll find me these days. Leave the sticky dance floors for the young uns
![[Image: biggrin.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Remember Broad St back in the 90s before the police were here there and everywhere in force? It was like a war zone every single weekend.
There was a certain rush walking from one end to the other...not quite sure if you'd make it!
Quote: (04-05-2016 11:07 AM)dog24 Wrote:
I miss the posts Mikecf used to write about fighting. A lot can be said about keeping yourself healthy and avoid street fighting, but what about mental health? That same guy who talks about how street fighting is dumb over a few beers will be the first guy to call you a pussy if you back down from a fight.
Most of you train, spar, compete. I guess you haven't taught any new guys in a while then. Guys that have some size but can't throw anything other than a haymaker and actually hurt their wrists punching the heavy bag. Guys who can barely lift their legs high enough to do a low kick from sitting down all day.
Guys that call time and turtle up the first time they spar.
Since we complain so much about entitlement from women, i think we should complain about male entitlement too. Douchebags who never trained a day in their life and never accomplished anything worthy of respect, who for some reason think they are a god's gift to mankind and have this delusion that they can beat anyone for no other reason than "because i say so".
Those are the guys always looking for trouble, the gruesome stories you heard about guys going to the hospital practically dead are very rare, and in most cases fights guys barely end up with a bleeding nose.
H1N1 and Crashbangwallop are obviously very experienced in fighting and i respect their opinions, but maybe spending too much time with professional fighters can cause a very decent fighter too underestimate his skills against an untrained opponent. And the fact that you learn humility going through belts of a martial arts doesn't help either against a guy who will just mistake that as weakness in a street fight.
Like CBW I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I think the point that CBW and I are making (and you?) is that: a.) fighting someone bigger than you who is not a pussy and no stranger to physicality is likely to negate most if not all of the skill advantage you may possess; and b.) since you can't tell whether the guy you are fighting is seasoned or not, you can't really afford to be wrong, and should calculate your actions accordingly.
Bouncers, rugby players, large policemen, etc - there are a lot of big guys who know their way around a punch up. The point is not that I couldn't hurt someone bigger than me, the point is that with guys around the same size I can be confident of beating them irrespective of whether they are seasoned or not. As the size disparity increases, so do the odds of being able to do meaningful damage in a short enough time frame against a capable fighter who is also 30lbs heavier than me. Guys who are carrying that much extra weight tend to have bigger bones - their heads and hands are bigger, they can sustain more punishment AND dish out more, and moving them around is harder. A big, aggressive guy who can ride a shot is a threat to anyone.
2 parts heavy weights + 1 part explosive calisthenics + 2 parts heavy bag (with a bag over 100 pounds).
That's how Tyson got so big and so fast. That's how modern heavyweight fighters keep size and speed. Just lift big and hit a heavy bag for long rounds AND with boxing drills. You'll get dense ass muscle and have more power than you will ever need.
That's how Tyson got so big and so fast. That's how modern heavyweight fighters keep size and speed. Just lift big and hit a heavy bag for long rounds AND with boxing drills. You'll get dense ass muscle and have more power than you will ever need.
Quote:PapayaTapper Wrote:
you seem to have a penchant for sticking your dick in high drama retarded trash.
Quote: (04-05-2016 05:02 PM)H1N1 Wrote:
Quote: (04-05-2016 11:07 AM)dog24 Wrote:
I miss the posts Mikecf used to write about fighting. A lot can be said about keeping yourself healthy and avoid street fighting, but what about mental health? That same guy who talks about how street fighting is dumb over a few beers will be the first guy to call you a pussy if you back down from a fight.
Most of you train, spar, compete. I guess you haven't taught any new guys in a while then. Guys that have some size but can't throw anything other than a haymaker and actually hurt their wrists punching the heavy bag. Guys who can barely lift their legs high enough to do a low kick from sitting down all day.
Guys that call time and turtle up the first time they spar.
Since we complain so much about entitlement from women, i think we should complain about male entitlement too. Douchebags who never trained a day in their life and never accomplished anything worthy of respect, who for some reason think they are a god's gift to mankind and have this delusion that they can beat anyone for no other reason than "because i say so".
Those are the guys always looking for trouble, the gruesome stories you heard about guys going to the hospital practically dead are very rare, and in most cases fights guys barely end up with a bleeding nose.
H1N1 and Crashbangwallop are obviously very experienced in fighting and i respect their opinions, but maybe spending too much time with professional fighters can cause a very decent fighter too underestimate his skills against an untrained opponent. And the fact that you learn humility going through belts of a martial arts doesn't help either against a guy who will just mistake that as weakness in a street fight.
Like CBW I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I think the point that CBW and I are making (and you?) is that: a.) fighting someone bigger than you who is not a pussy and no stranger to physicality is likely to negate most if not all of the skill advantage you may possess; and b.) since you can't tell whether the guy you are fighting is seasoned or not, you can't really afford to be wrong, and should calculate your actions accordingly.
Bouncers, rugby players, large policemen, etc - there are a lot of big guys who know their way around a punch up. The point is not that I couldn't hurt someone bigger than me, the point is that with guys around the same size I can be confident of beating them irrespective of whether they are seasoned or not. As the size disparity increases, so do the odds of being able to do meaningful damage in a short enough time frame against a capable fighter who is also 30lbs heavier than me. Guys who are carrying that much extra weight tend to have bigger bones - their heads and hands are bigger, they can sustain more punishment AND dish out more, and moving them around is harder. A big, aggressive guy who can ride a shot is a threat to anyone.
This is a great explanation. It's not necessarily about gym built muscle, but natural height and frame size. A 6'3 man with a naturally large frame that is half way athletic is a nightmare to fight even if they don't have training. A 5'8 small framed guy with a good bit of muscle muscle, maybe not that athletic, isn't nearly as much of a problem. However, someone willing to do and use whatever it takes is still the biggest danger. There are many individuals who are able to walk straight past security without being searched and without security saying a word.
CBW, I also tend to start my nights at those kind of places, but then when the drinks start going down, it always goes down hill and the next thing I know it's daylight and I'm in some moody after-hours venue.
Your a little older than me, but I still remember Broad Street back then when it would be packed and yeah full of trouble. I started going out here and there around the end of 1998, and it's now deserted compared to how it used to be. Seen a pretty bad one outside Bakers back then. A lot of the worst ones I've seen though were around China Town / Arcadian, rave venues like the Que Club, outside black music events, on night buses, in taxi queues, and at takeaways.
Kieran, you got me thinking about 'the old days' and I'll share a story about probably the worst fight I got into while working the doors back in 2003-5.
I had been working on another door in a nice town that night but at midnight I came to relieve another guy on a 2 man door at a shitty dive venue in the local rough town. We had back up if needed via radio from 6 more of our guys at a larger venue about 100m away.
When I got there, I was told that 2 well known pikeys who were permanently barred from all our venues for fighting, were inside with their cousin, the local drug dealer who was not currently barred. The Doorman I had relieved let them in without recognising them (apparently)
The head doorman at the larger venue had advised leaving them in there to see if they go out quietly as trying to eject them would definitely kick off badly.
Now the local drug dealer was small and wiry but known to be dangerous and to have stabbed a couple of people over drugs money. He was not barred at the time although we had previously caught and barred him repeatedly for dealing in the club.
The joke of it was that he would then pressure the club owner during the daytime to unbar him so we often had these little stand offs at the front which ended with us being over ruled again by the owner to let him back in.
We were firm with him but wary enough to not unduly antagonise him and he generally tried to keep on reasonable terms with us door staff, it made his business easier I guess.
His two cousins however were a different story. They are a well known local pikey family of GIANTS and to this day I occasionally spot them around the local area.
The youngest was at school with my sister and was 18 at the time but, I exaggerate not, is 6ft7 and was about 20 stone. His 'smaller' but older brother was 24, and 'only' 6ft 4 and about 15 stone.
I am 6ft 1 and was about 12 stone at the time, 23 years old.
Inside the club were a couple of my mates who were also doormen but off duty that night, both shorter but slightly stockier than me.
So in total, there were 3 of them and 4 of us (myself, the doorman I was working with, and the 2 off duty doormen inside).
On one of my walk rounds inside, I spotted my mate outside the toilet in a bit of a stand off with these 3 pikies so I went to see what was happening. The biggest pikey had accused my mate of staring at him and the drug dealer was trying to smooth it over getting them to shake hands, saying my mate was alright, but they were both gripping hands tight and staring each other out, free hands poised on a hair trigger.
Eventually it de escalated with the other brother saying he would buy my mate a drink and there was some back slapping all round.
The biggest one put his arm around my shoulder at that point offering me a drink, which I declined and went on my way, but I remember being surprised (and probably subconsciously encouraged, having a feeling about what would likely play out later) at how 'soft' his fat body felt across by back and when I slapped his ribs a few times in declining the drink.
TBC
I had been working on another door in a nice town that night but at midnight I came to relieve another guy on a 2 man door at a shitty dive venue in the local rough town. We had back up if needed via radio from 6 more of our guys at a larger venue about 100m away.
When I got there, I was told that 2 well known pikeys who were permanently barred from all our venues for fighting, were inside with their cousin, the local drug dealer who was not currently barred. The Doorman I had relieved let them in without recognising them (apparently)
The head doorman at the larger venue had advised leaving them in there to see if they go out quietly as trying to eject them would definitely kick off badly.
Now the local drug dealer was small and wiry but known to be dangerous and to have stabbed a couple of people over drugs money. He was not barred at the time although we had previously caught and barred him repeatedly for dealing in the club.
The joke of it was that he would then pressure the club owner during the daytime to unbar him so we often had these little stand offs at the front which ended with us being over ruled again by the owner to let him back in.
We were firm with him but wary enough to not unduly antagonise him and he generally tried to keep on reasonable terms with us door staff, it made his business easier I guess.
His two cousins however were a different story. They are a well known local pikey family of GIANTS and to this day I occasionally spot them around the local area.
The youngest was at school with my sister and was 18 at the time but, I exaggerate not, is 6ft7 and was about 20 stone. His 'smaller' but older brother was 24, and 'only' 6ft 4 and about 15 stone.
I am 6ft 1 and was about 12 stone at the time, 23 years old.
Inside the club were a couple of my mates who were also doormen but off duty that night, both shorter but slightly stockier than me.
So in total, there were 3 of them and 4 of us (myself, the doorman I was working with, and the 2 off duty doormen inside).
On one of my walk rounds inside, I spotted my mate outside the toilet in a bit of a stand off with these 3 pikies so I went to see what was happening. The biggest pikey had accused my mate of staring at him and the drug dealer was trying to smooth it over getting them to shake hands, saying my mate was alright, but they were both gripping hands tight and staring each other out, free hands poised on a hair trigger.
Eventually it de escalated with the other brother saying he would buy my mate a drink and there was some back slapping all round.
The biggest one put his arm around my shoulder at that point offering me a drink, which I declined and went on my way, but I remember being surprised (and probably subconsciously encouraged, having a feeling about what would likely play out later) at how 'soft' his fat body felt across by back and when I slapped his ribs a few times in declining the drink.
TBC
10 minutes to 2am and I remember thinking to myself "I need a shit, only 10 mins to go now"
Most of the punters had gone by now but we were still waiting for the pikeys to leave.
2am and a barmaid comes out to me at the front door and asks if I can get the pikeys to leave as they are threatening to shoot the bar staff.
I didn't take this literally as they all mouth off and unlike the US, most people don't have access to handguns.
I walked inside, passed the other doorman who gave me a look to say he was watching. I couldn't see either of my mates at this point.
I walked round to the back side of the 3 of them and said "right, time to go now boys".
The biggest one said "Yeah? Shoot you right in the 'ed, cunt".
I replied " Yeah? Let's go outside and do it shall we?" I circled back around them and walked toward the exit.
My plan was to draw them outside where hopefully they would fuck off or we shut the doors on them.
As I passed the other doorman, I said to him "don't let him bring his bottle". Unfortunately, that was the last I saw of him until afterward so I guess he must have gone looking for his own!
Neither did the drug dealer get involved, he just slunk back to enjoy the fireworks so what follows basically involved me and my two off duty mates against these 2 pikey brothers.
I turned around in the lobby to see the biggest one come out with a group following him and passing round him. He was still holding his bottle by the neck but it was not in the upright position ready to bottle me, it was hanging below his left hand as if he were still drinking it.
I thought to myself maybe he doesn't want to fight after all so I put my left hand on his right shoulder and grabbed the bottle with my right and said "Leave your bottle in there mate"
He kept his grip on it but let his arm go slack and said "feel that, it's cold ain't it?" Which seemed an odd thing to say. I looked up into his eyes and he was smiling so I knew something was wrong.
I instinctively looked over my left shoulder to see his brother had somehow gone round behind me and was now reared up at full stretch, about to bring something down on my head.
Turns out it was one of those big, ornate cut glass ash trays you used to get in pubs/clubs.
I braced and turned my face away just in time before I felt a huge blow to the top left of my skull. My vision flashed and my knees dipped with my entire body just seeming to relax. Everything now was in slow motion and I saw an explosion of glass shards slowly flying out away from my head.
I slumped backwards against the lobby wall which thankfully stopped me from falling over. Everything was silent and I could see the biggest brothers fist slowly punching in and out of my face.
There was no feeling or fear or anything, just calm, detached observance of what was happening. I then saw everyone get slowly bundled out of the lobby (by my same mate who had run in with them earlier it turns out) and at this point everything started to speed up again.
I came up off the wall and went to follow outside but somebody grabbed my trench coat from behind and was pulling me back saying "No dont be stupid, stay in here"
I slipped out of the coat and stepped out into the street to see the smaller pikey (the one who had ash trayed me) stood in a hunched position while my mate gripped the back of his collar and was chopping hooks and uppercuts into his face with his other hand.
Coming toward my mate from the opposite direction was the bigger pikey with a bottle in hand, about the bottle him. I ran in and got to him first and fired off 5 or 6 straight R,L,R,L punches, walking forwards as I punched until he sat down on his arse.
At this point I became aware of a splashing sensation on my face and realised I must be bleeding, but I was in such a rage I didn't stop to think about it.
I turned back to see both my mates trading punches with the smaller pikey ( and remember, by smaller I mean just 6ft 4 and 15 stone) but just as I got back to them he broke free and ran down the street.
He got about 20 yards before my mate kicked his legs out from under him and I started to punt kick his head like a football, I remember looking down at one point while doing this to see my mate laying on the floor at right angles to the guy, biting his exposed stomach and ripping his head side to side like a dog with a rabbit, it was pretty savage.
The bigger brother than came running round screaming in a high pitch voice "leave 'im alone, leave 'im he's had enough".
I turned and roared "fucking had enough!?!?" And plowed into him again, punching him backwards up against a shop window until he caught me with a big hook almost at the same instant someone ran in and bounced me off the window with a double hand chest shove.
At that point I came to my senses and became aware of everybody shoving everybody to break it up.
I looked down at myself to see my entire left arm and left side of my body was block filled red with claret from my head.
The bar staff rushed me inside and upstairs into the flat above where I saw my entire face was a mask of blood, all clotted around my eyebrows and hair.
I also smelled something pretty unpleasant. Remember just before closing time I had thought to myself ' I need a shit"?
Yes I am not ashamed to say I had shit myself! I assume on impact of the Ash tray but I can't remember fur sure.
I remember peeking out of the blinds to see the one who ash trayed me laying unconscious on a trolley wrapped up in foil, being loaded into an ambulance.
I hid upstairs until 6 am until I felt the police would be gone, before driving home to my girlfriend. I never went yo hospital and consider myself lucky to be alive as the largest piece of the Ash tray they found was about 1inch long which gives you an idea of the force he used.
I went back to work there the next night, but a message had been sent by the drug dealer that he was staying out of town as the whole family were coming into town to kill us doormen.
I took that seriously and phoned my girlfriend and told her to bring my stab vest down, despite it still being wet from her washing last nights blood out of it.
That was a long and cold winters night on the door.
Most of the punters had gone by now but we were still waiting for the pikeys to leave.
2am and a barmaid comes out to me at the front door and asks if I can get the pikeys to leave as they are threatening to shoot the bar staff.
I didn't take this literally as they all mouth off and unlike the US, most people don't have access to handguns.
I walked inside, passed the other doorman who gave me a look to say he was watching. I couldn't see either of my mates at this point.
I walked round to the back side of the 3 of them and said "right, time to go now boys".
The biggest one said "Yeah? Shoot you right in the 'ed, cunt".
I replied " Yeah? Let's go outside and do it shall we?" I circled back around them and walked toward the exit.
My plan was to draw them outside where hopefully they would fuck off or we shut the doors on them.
As I passed the other doorman, I said to him "don't let him bring his bottle". Unfortunately, that was the last I saw of him until afterward so I guess he must have gone looking for his own!
Neither did the drug dealer get involved, he just slunk back to enjoy the fireworks so what follows basically involved me and my two off duty mates against these 2 pikey brothers.
I turned around in the lobby to see the biggest one come out with a group following him and passing round him. He was still holding his bottle by the neck but it was not in the upright position ready to bottle me, it was hanging below his left hand as if he were still drinking it.
I thought to myself maybe he doesn't want to fight after all so I put my left hand on his right shoulder and grabbed the bottle with my right and said "Leave your bottle in there mate"
He kept his grip on it but let his arm go slack and said "feel that, it's cold ain't it?" Which seemed an odd thing to say. I looked up into his eyes and he was smiling so I knew something was wrong.
I instinctively looked over my left shoulder to see his brother had somehow gone round behind me and was now reared up at full stretch, about to bring something down on my head.
Turns out it was one of those big, ornate cut glass ash trays you used to get in pubs/clubs.
I braced and turned my face away just in time before I felt a huge blow to the top left of my skull. My vision flashed and my knees dipped with my entire body just seeming to relax. Everything now was in slow motion and I saw an explosion of glass shards slowly flying out away from my head.
I slumped backwards against the lobby wall which thankfully stopped me from falling over. Everything was silent and I could see the biggest brothers fist slowly punching in and out of my face.
There was no feeling or fear or anything, just calm, detached observance of what was happening. I then saw everyone get slowly bundled out of the lobby (by my same mate who had run in with them earlier it turns out) and at this point everything started to speed up again.
I came up off the wall and went to follow outside but somebody grabbed my trench coat from behind and was pulling me back saying "No dont be stupid, stay in here"
I slipped out of the coat and stepped out into the street to see the smaller pikey (the one who had ash trayed me) stood in a hunched position while my mate gripped the back of his collar and was chopping hooks and uppercuts into his face with his other hand.
Coming toward my mate from the opposite direction was the bigger pikey with a bottle in hand, about the bottle him. I ran in and got to him first and fired off 5 or 6 straight R,L,R,L punches, walking forwards as I punched until he sat down on his arse.
At this point I became aware of a splashing sensation on my face and realised I must be bleeding, but I was in such a rage I didn't stop to think about it.
I turned back to see both my mates trading punches with the smaller pikey ( and remember, by smaller I mean just 6ft 4 and 15 stone) but just as I got back to them he broke free and ran down the street.
He got about 20 yards before my mate kicked his legs out from under him and I started to punt kick his head like a football, I remember looking down at one point while doing this to see my mate laying on the floor at right angles to the guy, biting his exposed stomach and ripping his head side to side like a dog with a rabbit, it was pretty savage.
The bigger brother than came running round screaming in a high pitch voice "leave 'im alone, leave 'im he's had enough".
I turned and roared "fucking had enough!?!?" And plowed into him again, punching him backwards up against a shop window until he caught me with a big hook almost at the same instant someone ran in and bounced me off the window with a double hand chest shove.
At that point I came to my senses and became aware of everybody shoving everybody to break it up.
I looked down at myself to see my entire left arm and left side of my body was block filled red with claret from my head.
The bar staff rushed me inside and upstairs into the flat above where I saw my entire face was a mask of blood, all clotted around my eyebrows and hair.
I also smelled something pretty unpleasant. Remember just before closing time I had thought to myself ' I need a shit"?
Yes I am not ashamed to say I had shit myself! I assume on impact of the Ash tray but I can't remember fur sure.
I remember peeking out of the blinds to see the one who ash trayed me laying unconscious on a trolley wrapped up in foil, being loaded into an ambulance.
I hid upstairs until 6 am until I felt the police would be gone, before driving home to my girlfriend. I never went yo hospital and consider myself lucky to be alive as the largest piece of the Ash tray they found was about 1inch long which gives you an idea of the force he used.
I went back to work there the next night, but a message had been sent by the drug dealer that he was staying out of town as the whole family were coming into town to kill us doormen.
I took that seriously and phoned my girlfriend and told her to bring my stab vest down, despite it still being wet from her washing last nights blood out of it.
That was a long and cold winters night on the door.
Keep writing. You will get better. Being a fiction writer is difficult.
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