[da_zeb]

(02-24-2016 03:29 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  

Try interviewing a dozen little "Talias" for a job which carries actual responsibilities.

It's very depressing at times.

I always check their CV to see if they've worked at McDonalds or the like. If they have they're hired. If they haven't then I ask them if they would ever consider working at McDonalds and if not why not. There's only one right answer to that question.

[Captain Gh]

Can someone please tell her that her only hope is to find a man to support her! Please specify that it might be a long search for her!

[Quintus Curtius]

I'm going to take a different view of this one.

Maybe this person deserves to be ridiculed. I won't defend her actions or justify what she did.

But I personally have some sympathy for her situation. She is right: young people are barely getting by, and companies are paying shit wages.

Laugh if you want to, of course, until it's you who has no money.

But we also can't escape the reality that wage income for the average person has stagnated or gone down over the past few decades. For many young people starting out, they are crippled by debt and are not making any money.

Wages need to rise, and rise significantly for the average American.

The rich fatcats at the top have been bleeding the country white for the past 30 years. The leadership has a responsibility to take care of its citizens in a minimal way.

And that means a liveable wage, access to health care, and a chance at betterment.

Obligations and duties go both ways. The leadership is obligated to care about its people. And the people are obligated to obey the laws. (I dealt with this subject on Monday at ROK, when I talked about Apple's duty to obey the law).

One of the big problems I see today is the disregard of responsibilities by both sides. Citizens don't respect authority, and the leadership fails to live up to its responsibilities. It sells us out and doesn't fight for us.

Some say this is an old-fashioned, outdated way of thinking. But I don't see it this way. Without laws and duties, there is no society, and no communal bonds.

[Thrill Jackson]

^Bullshit, my fellow Americans just need to cut the shit, increase their capital, stop the violence, and live below their needs. Jobs are being outsourced because people are willing to work for less in other countries. As a country we are being outworked, outhustled, period.With our crappy work ethic and education level as a whole, we are lucky to get what we have compared to a India or China.

[Gmac]

Cry me a fucking river. Life is hard, get over it or get out of the goddamn fucking way.

[Repo]

Sometimes reading the comments in threads like this I feel like I an living in crazy-land.

First off, this chick is an idiot and deserves what happened.

That said, the millenials who work for me work hard as shit. Most held down fulltime jobs while attending college, or went through multiple internships during school. All this while taking part in extra curricular activities, volunteering, you name it. If you did not do ALL of the above while maintaining a high GPA and going to a good school, you are not getting in. Meanwhile their bosses bosses did not work half as hard at their age. Hell I am fairly certain a higher percentage of top candidates applying for an entry level position have Masters than many of their managers. But thanks to the age of the internet, it is easy to cherrypick a few cases like this and smear an entire generation. My brothers are also millenials, and they work their fucking asses off to get by. Shit is just not easy out there for many professions.

I think this is part of a conspiracy by the elite to blame the next generation, so we are to blinded to the raping of the American worker.

[Quintus Curtius]

(02-24-2016 09:14 PM)Repo Wrote:  

Sometimes reading the comments in threads like this I feel like I an living in crazy-land.

First off, this chick is an idiot and deserves what happened.

But thanks to the age of the internet, it is easy to cherrypick a few cases like this and smear an entire generation. My brothers are also millenials, and they work their fucking asses off to get by. Shit is just not easy out there for many professions.

I think this is part of a conspiracy by the elite to blame the next generation, so we are to blinded to the raping of the American worker.

Agreed. And seconded.

[rpg]

She could have picked a cushy teaching job with that English degree but succumbed to envying the scheme in Big Media. She fucked herself like so many others. Every ditzy girl I know wants to work in movies. They loath real work.

[Captainstabbin]

(02-24-2016 09:14 PM)Repo Wrote:  

Shit is just not easy out there for many professions.

Then wouldn't a reasonable person simply avoid those professions?

[Blaster]

(02-24-2016 08:26 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I'm going to take a different view of this one.

Maybe this person deserves to be ridiculed. I won't defend her actions or justify what she did.

But I personally have some sympathy for her situation. She is right: young people are barely getting by, and companies are paying shit wages.

Laugh if you want to, of course, until it's you who has no money.

But we also can't escape the reality that wage income for the average person has stagnated or gone down over the past few decades. For many young people starting out, they are crippled by debt and are not making any money.

Wages need to rise, and rise significantly for the average American.

The rich fatcats at the top have been bleeding the country white for the past 30 years. The leadership has a responsibility to take care of its citizens in a minimal way.

And that means a liveable wage, access to health care, and a chance at betterment.

Obligations and duties go both ways. The leadership is obligated to care about its people. And the people are obligated to obey the laws. (I dealt with this subject on Monday at ROK, when I talked about Apple's duty to obey the law).

One of the big problems I see today is the disregard of responsibilities by both sides. Citizens don't respect authority, and the leadership fails to live up to its responsibilities. It sells us out and doesn't fight for us.

Some say this is an old-fashioned, outdated way of thinking. But I don't see it this way. Without laws and duties, there is no society, and no communal bonds.

That is probably why Business Insider posted such an enthusiastic rebuttal. This girl fits the desired narrative: she whines about wages vs rents is something immature, entitled millenials do so we can safely ignore them.

[Travesty]

People have the get mine mentality can have that luxury for now as the USA stands. Coming from many others countries I don't know if guys would be saying this. The guys from those places of less opportunity that are get mine leave to a place like the US or become corrupt and part of the problem in their own shithole country.

It is like Boomers trying to sound tough that they paid their way through college and bought a house when they were 24.

Laughable.

Get mine fuck everyone esle leads to Africa.

People have to realize in the very near future most people will not have the IQ or creativity to have high paying jobs. There will need to be sympathy and a universal wage or we are looking at a hellish world.

Work ethic be damned robots and computers can outwork any human.

[Suits]

(02-24-2016 08:59 PM)Phil Jackson Wrote:  

^Bullshit, my fellow Americans just need to cut the shit, increase their capital, stop the violence, and live below their needs. Jobs are being outsourced because people are willing to work for less in other countries. As a country we are being outworked, outhustled, period.With our crappy work ethic and education level as a whole, we are lucky to get what we have compared to a India or China.

There is a more polite way to disagree with a well reasoned, detailed, and thoughtful post by a highly respected forum member.

Polite disagreement is common and acceptable on this forum. However, calling Quintus' post "bullshit" and dismissing it with four truistic sentences does not bode well for your future on the forum.

[Thrill Jackson]

^ didn't mean to come across as disrespectful, just getting a point across. I'm sure he wasn't hurt about a curse word, being that we all here don't want to be censored and enjoy being anonymous in an increasing politically correct world.

[Ice]

(02-24-2016 08:59 PM)Phil Jackson Wrote:  

^Bullshit, my fellow Americans just need to cut the shit, increase their capital, stop the violence, and live below their needs. Jobs are being outsourced because people are willing to work for less in other countries. As a country we are being outworked, outhustled, period.With our crappy work ethic and education level as a whole, we are lucky to get what we have compared to a India or China.

Well yeah of course people are willing to work for less in other countries lol - the average wage in Thailand is like 300 USD / month.

Do you want to compete with that?

Of course the cost of living is a lot lower in these countries too.

It's not going to work creating a low-wage sector in the West that tries to compete with 3rd world counties. Or rather, it's not desirable. It will lead to extreme wage / lifestyle disparity - because the profits are increasingly going to the top 10% - that development is already well under way, especially in the US.

Do you want to put all responsibility to not slip into the underclass on the individual? Yeah sure, you can say that it's everyone's own responsibility to make the best out of their life. But there are certain developments that are simply outside of the individual's sphere of influence - namely loss of jobs as a result of outsourcing, automation etc., globalisation and increasing competition with countries where cost of living is extremely low, rising college tuition etc. These things also need to be taken into account.

Companies and governments also have a certain responsibility that their countries don't turn into a nightmarish dystopia where 80% of the population fight for survival.

[Repo]

Delete

[C-Note]

With her English degree she could have applied to become a US Department of Defense (DODDS/DODEA) school teacher and, if accepted, she would now likely be living overseas making 30-40k a year starting salary teaching at a school at an American military base. She also could have gone into the Peace Corps for a year or so which would have given her preference under the federal government hiring system once she completed her Peace Corps term of service. Those are two of the many options she had and elected not to pursue, assuming she knew about them.

If she did know of those other options and elected not to try them, then she shouldn't complain about the consequences of her decisions.

[The Beast1]

(02-25-2016 07:48 AM)Ice Wrote:  

(02-24-2016 08:59 PM)Phil Jackson Wrote:  

^Bullshit, my fellow Americans just need to cut the shit, increase their capital, stop the violence, and live below their needs. Jobs are being outsourced because people are willing to work for less in other countries. As a country we are being outworked, outhustled, period.With our crappy work ethic and education level as a whole, we are lucky to get what we have compared to a India or China.

Well yeah of course people are willing to work for less in other countries lol - the average wage in Thailand is like 300 USD / month.

Do you want to compete with that?

Of course the cost of living is a lot lower in these countries too.

It's not going to work creating a low-wage sector in the West that tries to compete with 3rd world counties. Or rather, it's not desirable. It will lead to extreme wage / lifestyle disparity - because the profits are increasingly going to the top 10% - that development is already well under way, especially in the US.

Do you want to put all responsibility to not slip into the underclass on the individual? Yeah sure, you can say that it's everyone's own responsibility to make the best out of their life. But there are certain developments that are simply outside of the individual's sphere of influence - namely loss of jobs as a result of outsourcing, automation etc., globalisation and increasing competition with countries where cost of living is extremely low, rising college tuition etc. These things also need to be taken into account.

Companies and governments also have a certain responsibility that their countries don't turn into a nightmarish dystopia where 80% of the population fight for survival.

This pisses me off. You get big hot to trot MBAs saying, "well why not outsource? American workers suck for reason x,y, and z".

Outsourcing to the 3rd world is pathetic. These countries don't have healthcare, paved roads, schools worth attending (unless you go private), OSHA, child labor laws, and other 1st world amenities these C level folks take advantage of.

A C level exec should be forced to live in these 3rd world shit holes to see the consequences of what he's doing by outsourcing and not live in a gated community to avoid it. When you outsource you say, "I don't mind undrinkable water, working electricity, and well 1st world comforts."

[Blaster]

(02-25-2016 10:09 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(02-25-2016 07:48 AM)Ice Wrote:  

(02-24-2016 08:59 PM)Phil Jackson Wrote:  

^Bullshit, my fellow Americans just need to cut the shit, increase their capital, stop the violence, and live below their needs. Jobs are being outsourced because people are willing to work for less in other countries. As a country we are being outworked, outhustled, period.With our crappy work ethic and education level as a whole, we are lucky to get what we have compared to a India or China.

Well yeah of course people are willing to work for less in other countries lol - the average wage in Thailand is like 300 USD / month.

Do you want to compete with that?

Of course the cost of living is a lot lower in these countries too.

It's not going to work creating a low-wage sector in the West that tries to compete with 3rd world counties. Or rather, it's not desirable. It will lead to extreme wage / lifestyle disparity - because the profits are increasingly going to the top 10% - that development is already well under way, especially in the US.

Do you want to put all responsibility to not slip into the underclass on the individual? Yeah sure, you can say that it's everyone's own responsibility to make the best out of their life. But there are certain developments that are simply outside of the individual's sphere of influence - namely loss of jobs as a result of outsourcing, automation etc., globalisation and increasing competition with countries where cost of living is extremely low, rising college tuition etc. These things also need to be taken into account.

Companies and governments also have a certain responsibility that their countries don't turn into a nightmarish dystopia where 80% of the population fight for survival.

This pisses me off. You get big hot to trot MBAs saying, "well why not outsource? American workers suck for reason x,y, and z".

Outsourcing to the 3rd world is pathetic. These countries don't have healthcare, paved roads, schools worth attending (unless you go private), OSHA, child labor laws, and other 1st world amenities these C level folks take advantage of.

A C level exec should be forced to live in these 3rd world shit holes to see the consequences of what he's doing by outsourcing and not live in a gated community to avoid it. When you outsource you say, "I don't mind undrinkable water, working electricity, and well 1st world comforts."

The other issue is that the 1st world is the primary market for those products. It's not just about protecting jobs, it's about protecting first world consumers from exploitation. From a global perspective, that may not sound fair. But unless you are a global elite or see working in a 3rd world factory as a great way to improve your lot in life, then it's in your best interest.

[Baphomet]

(02-24-2016 08:26 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I'm going to take a different view of this one.

Maybe this person deserves to be ridiculed. I won't defend her actions or justify what she did.

But I personally have some sympathy for her situation. She is right: young people are barely getting by, and companies are paying shit wages.

I would like to understand what you mean by this. What "wages" should Company X pay for every position, that wouldn't be "shit?"

Quote:

Laugh if you want to, of course, until it's you who has no money.

But we also can't escape the reality that wage income for the average person has stagnated or gone down over the past few decades. For many young people starting out, they are crippled by debt and are not making any money.

Who was it who forced these young people into assuming crippling debt? Did they get anything of value in return for their debts? How is it Company X's responsibility to raise their pay scales so that young people can pay their debts?

Quote:

Wages need to rise, and rise significantly for the average American.

Or does the Average American need to lower their conspicuous consumption rates so as to live comfortably within their means? Why is it Company X's responsibility to pay for the irresponsible spending of young people?

Quote:

The rich fatcats at the top have been bleeding the country white for the past 30 years. The leadership has a responsibility to take care of its citizens in a minimal way.

I guess they have done that by creating the "minimum wage."

Quote:

And that means a liveable wage, access to health care, and a chance at betterment.

So, then we make the minimum wage $60,000 / year? That's "livable" right? Tommy, the 18 year old cashier asks, "You want fries with that?" and earns $60k. Why not $100k, though? That would be even MORE livable.

Quote:

Obligations and duties go both ways. The leadership is obligated to care about its people. And the people are obligated to obey the laws. (I dealt with this subject on Monday at ROK, when I talked about Apple's duty to obey the law).

Actually no. The government (leadership) is not obligated to care about anyone. Their obligation is to provide equality under the law, not equality of all outcomes. They are not our mothers or fathers, nor are they our rulers.

Quote:

One of the big problems I see today is the disregard of responsibilities by both sides. Citizens don't respect authority, and the leadership fails to live up to its responsibilities. It sells us out and doesn't fight for us.

The "Authorities" have received the respect that they have earned. Congress has a 10% approval rate or something close to that. I'm not sure what there is to respect in that.

Quote:

Some say this is an old-fashioned, outdated way of thinking. But I don't see it this way. Without laws and duties, there is no society, and no communal bonds.

Fine, but I don't see how that addresses why Company X is responsible for Johnny living above his means. (And thinking everyone OWES him that lifestyle.)

[odesseus]

Quintus - I agree with your duty comments - the way forward is both sides 'putting their shoulder to the wheel' so to speak.

However in the microcosm, this girl and others plight is often a simple matter of budgeting. With an entry level job (no skill set, something that retarded people can do with no education); you don't get a cell phone, you don't get home internet, you don't get your own place, you eat rice beans and day old vegetables and meat twice per week (not expensive meat).

I see this most days on my drive to work through a very marginal area of the city - poorest of the poor, waiting at the bus with a purchased coffee checking their I phone.

This girl could live comfortably if she had gone to work (rather than 4-5 years of wasted education), lived in shared accommodation (one of the most expensive rental markets in the country), and lived the rest of her life at or below her means (lack of luxuries, focus on essentials).

You can make it on minimum wage - it isn't going to be glamorous or tweetable - but you can live ok.

Edit - after a quick look at her blog, she seems to be enjoying steak, good booze and other luxuries on the regular. WNB

[weambulance]

I'm not a big fan of millenial attitudes about work and entitlement, but some of y'all apparently have no idea why these kids make the choices they do WRT college/debt/etc.

Guys coming to the "red pill" often bitch about how they've been misled their whole lives about what women want and what they need to do to be successful with women. Fair gripe, because how are they supposed to know better when literally everyone around them is full of shit?

Well, it's the same deal with a lot of middle-class millenials. They get tons of shitty advice from parents and family who don't understand how the world has changed since they were starting out, and they get set up for failure. And most of them have no idea how to cope with it when they find out they've been sold a bill of goods.

[Quintus Curtius]

Real wages have been declining for decades. They are not even able to keep up with inflation. American workers are seeing their standard of living plummet compared to what they had 30 years ago. See the data:

http://www.epi.org/publication/stagnant-wages-in-2014/

Meanwhile, the rich plutocrats at the top are taking more and more of the wealth. This has been a worldwide trend, not just in the US. Wages need to rise, and quickly.

CEOs make more than 330 times as much as their employees, which is orders of magnitude more than the ratios that existed in the 1970s and 1960s.

http://www.businessinsider.com/fortune-5...pay-2014-6

These people are also not living up to their responsibilities as members of society. They have allowed the infrastructure to decline, they have allowed feminism and anti-male propaganda to infiltrate all of society, and they have abandoned their duty to educate and mentor the young.

As I've said, there are reciprocal duties involved here. We are doing our part. But our leaders are not living up to their responsibilities.

And instead of focusing anger on those people--where it belongs--we're going to mock and ridicule some girl who got fired from Yelp?

It may be fun for a few laughs, but we should keep in mind the realities of power and influence here.

[Travesty]

Most people are not very smart and need to be lead.

We will NEVER have a world of all independent smart thinkers unless literally the human brain evolves tremendously.

I am not a socialist, but the real nature of the world demands people need to be "overpaid" for it to be the best world possible.

However for the good of everyone people do need rules and ways of life to follow that are handed down to them.

Again most people do not possess the IQ, creativity, or balls to make it in a dog-eat-dog economic society with automation coming at them.

I have heard this idea though and I said it in one of my university classes when there were budget cuts:

Majors with the highest median contribution to the GDP of the country pay zero tuition.

The majors with the least jobs prospects and least contribution to GDP pay an outrageous amount. For these "culture" subjects only a few extremely bright and dedicated students would be tuition free that had plans to become PhD's to grow the knowledge of such fields.

This would help.

As for a fair wage at this point I would say whatever it takes that the minimum wage person make $30k a year ($15 hr).

That would mean different trade deals, little to no HB1's unless they are exceptionally bright. Zero illegal immigrants. Punish corporations that want the safety and opportunity to base their finances and homes in America while reaping rewards abroad, without tipping their American workers.

I know there is this feel-good feeling to say pull yourself up by your bootstraps, this is still the best country to make it - this is true for now, the writing is on the wall though. People need to not think about the past 50 years and the next 5 years.

They need to think 30 years down the road now.

[Blaster]

Baphomet Wrote:

I would like to understand what you mean by this. What "wages" should Company X pay for every position, that wouldn't be "shit?"

I may be speaking out of turn here, but I don't think QC's position is necessarily that "Company X" should be expected to solve the problem of livable wages by simply raising wages for entitled brats, only that we not miss the bigger picture in our rush to pass judgment and feed our egos by piling on the easily-mocked millenial. That bigger picture being the disparity between the value of low-end wages and the cost of living in San Francisco.

Should someone feel entitled to live in an apartment by herself in San Francisco? Perhaps not, but we should take a moment to double-check and make sure her sense of entitlement really is unwarranted, and by how much. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if we DID live in a society where a small, modest, but clean and safe one-person dwelling 30 miles away from employment did NOT cost 80% of minimum wage?

Sure, real estate prices in San Francisco are sky-high for many reasons and there's always going to be exclusive neighborhoods, but the problem of wages vs rent is not unique to SF Bay area, and she says she lives 30 miles away and spends over $200 a month in commuting fees.

Quote:

So, then we make the minimum wage $60,000 / year? That's "livable" right? Tommy, the 18 year old cashier asks, "You want fries with that?" and earns $60k. Why not $100k, though? That would be even MORE livable.

Making wages livable doesn't necessarily mean raising the cash money paid per unit of work. It can also mean reducing the basic cost of living expenses. It can mean better funding for public infrastructure transit. It means raising the quality of life in the bottom and middle of the scale such that the low-end workers don't feel trapped, helpless, and miserable.

Also, remember that on the actual question of cash money wages, it's is a zero sum proposition. The question is not whether some entitled millenial brat deserves $60,000 a year from the money tree in the sky. The question is how much of a company's revenue should go to the workers vs the company owner's third Maserati.

Quote:

Or does the Average American need to lower their conspicuous consumption rates so as to live comfortably within their means? Why is it Company X's responsibility to pay for the irresponsible spending of young people?

Paying 80% of your paycheck in rent to live in a 1br (possibly even a studio, she doesn't say) is not conspicuous consumption. Spending $200 a month to take the train 30 miles to work is not conspicuous consumption. College loans, however foolish they might be, are not conspicuous consumption. Eating rice because you can't afford to buy groceries is not conspicuous consumption. A laptop is an important tool and not conspicuous consumption. Driving your grandfather's car is not conspicuous consumption.

[Jazzman92]

This reminds me of when Don Draper lectured Peggy. This girl needs to get Drapered