[spinaroonie]

Day Game Approaches to Numbers to Lays Ratio

Been getting into day game recently but am now questioning its efficacy.

Came upon this indictment of one of the leading day game pick up gurus, Paul Janka.

Quote:

http://www.pickupartistmindset.com/paul-...real-deal/

Paul Janka has recently burst onto the pick-up scene with his Attraction Formula e-book. I have never seen him in action besides his exposure on television programs and while I have no doubt that he possesses knowledge which is beneficial to men who want to get laid more, the numbers he has published makes me wonder how realistic it is to achieve a high level of success based on his strategies.

On his upcoming seminar page he says how many phone numbers he’s gotten (3428), now removed, while also giving his number of lays (153). He has stated that he has a spreadsheet that keeps track of these figures.

Let’s do the math. If you divide phone numbers by lays you get 22. That means he gets one bang for every twenty-two numbers. What that tells me is he gets flaked on a lot, either due to his poor attraction game or the way he is closing.

My hunch says it has something to do with his looks. No bones about it, he is a very good looking guy, moreso than any other pick up artist I’ve seen. I’m guessing that girls throw him their number because of his looks, not his game, and then flake out because he didn’t build attraction and comfort.

Let’s take the math a step further. How many approaches do you think it takes Paul Janka has to do to get one number? I’m going to guess three. Maybe right now he only has to do one or two, but early on I’m sure he struggled and had to do five or more. Three sounds like a reasonable number, even though I’m sure it is higher.

So let’s multiply three by the number of phone numbers he’s gotten. That gives us 10,284. That means he’s probably done over 10,000 approaches in just a few years. I’ve done a lot of approaches in my life but I doubt I’ve hit 1,000. If you divide 10,000 approaches by five years, which is about how long he’s been in the game, you’ll get 2,000 approaches a year, or 5.5 approaches a day, every day.

If he has approached 10,284 girls for 153 lays means he’s getting a lay per 67 approaches. That’s a 1.5% success rate.

Again, I’m not posting this to bash Paul Janka, because I haven’t seen his game, but the math he has given is no inspiration to his students. Based on his good looks, is his numbers worse or better than what a man with average looks and average game can get? Probably worse. Study his material with a grain of salt.

So if a 6'1" white guy with male model looks - and who teaches day game pick up for a living - closes at such a paltry rate, how worthwhile is day game for the average guy?

Day game sounds great on principle - get any hottie you want while going through your motions during the day, avoid the pressure cooker night scene. But for the amount of time invested it seems like a fruitless endeavour.

Is day game the real deal, or a marketing scam to sell false hope to clueless virgins?

I'm interested in hearing stats from the dudes here who do day game pick up routinely. For how many approaches, how many numbers and how many lays?

[CupCake]

I do day game exclusively and let me tell you that it's not for the faint of heart. In fact, I'm looking to getting into more bars because of how slim the pickings are.

Honestly, I don't keep track of my approaches but I approach whenever I can. The hardest part about day gaming is finding someone to talk to. You might be sniffing around all day and only catch a few per day. Many chicks have their boyfriends with them and many are just fat and nasty. It takes a lot of work to find decent ones. It's a part-time job. It's not a good idea to rely on it if you want results.

I think I remember Roosh saying something about a 5% success rate actually being pretty good. This guys numbers seem pretty low for someone so experienced; 1% would be something I'd expect from someone just starting out. But if this is exclusively day game he's doing then I wouldn't be surprised at all. The lack of alcohol in these approaches is definitely going to hurt his numbers big time.

It's amazing he's been able to talk to that many women though. Where does he live?

[Kish]

(07-06-2011 09:18 PM)CupCake Wrote:  

It's amazing he's been able to talk to that many women though. Where does he live?

NYC. Which must be Day Game heaven

[Selva]

I don't think it is day game that is the problem, I think it is number closes. Any girl can give a number or an email and then blow it off. It is just a game to her, some guy hitting on her and her giving her number then she goes on with life. Going for number closes is a waste of time, and not unlike jacking off. Same result.

I push for an immediate venue change and escalate trying for a same day lay if possible. I also only approach girls who give me an indication of interest and then pounce. I don't keep a spreadsheet or anything but my close rate is pretty high, and much higher than Paul Janka, apparently.

[spinaroonie]

Paul Janka's based in NYC. He's one of the few pickup gurus with video footage. I've seen his in field videos (dig around the internet, you'll find the torrent). He takes a very shotgun approach - ask for directions, exchange some BS, trade numbers, GTFO. Most of his sets were < 3 min. Janka's got a cool, relaxed, confident masculine vibe (unlike most "professional" PUAs), but he takes a very shotgun approach to getting numbers.

I suspect the flake ratio would be much lower if he stayed in set and worked on building attraction + comfort. Just surprised this guy can make a living feeding this BS style of approach and get on national daytime TV (Dr. Phil) for exposure.

IMO the problem is most guys doing day game have nothing structured to back them up. This includes the pickup gurus teaching day game, many of whom just throw guys into set with no material and just winging it. This is particularly daunting for the autistic virgins who flock to PUA and already lack basic conversational skills. These guys will encounter rejection after rejection, and few guys have the tenacity to tough it through.

Structured day game is where it's at. There's the next huge niche to be exploited. Particularly with night game dying.

Why don't more guys develop a Mystery Method style routine stack that hits attraction + qualification + comfort, just toned down a little to calibrate to day game? Go with what works.

[Kish]

Here's another NYC Day Game guy. Justin Wayne

[Jack_007]

(07-06-2011 09:32 PM)Selva Wrote:  

I don't think it is day game that is the problem, I think it is number closes. Any girl can give a number or an email and then blow it off. It is just a game to her, some guy hitting on her and her giving her number then she goes on with life. Going for number closes is a waste of time, and not unlike jacking off. Same result.

I push for an immediate venue change and escalate trying for a same day lay if possible. I also only approach girls who give me an indication of interest and then pounce. I don't keep a spreadsheet or anything but my close rate is pretty high, and much higher than Paul Janka, apparently.

You are soooooo right, I do day game too and I came to this conclusions after 4 months of trial and error. I have a quote from James Bond movies, "there's no tomorrow" . We have to push the things as far as we can and not just take the # and run away. That's stupid. We still have a chance when we tried everything but it's the woman's "problem". If she's really interested she will ask herself for the phone number.

Even if I don't get indicators of interest I make the approach if the girl is hot. If I see her in front of me, walking, my only option is to come from behind and open her.

[Vicious]

(07-06-2011 08:04 PM)spinaroonie Wrote:  

Day game sounds great on principle - get any hottie you want while going through your motions during the day, avoid the pressure cooker night scene. But for the amount of time invested it seems like a fruitless endeavour.

While the return on the investment is small to say that it is "fruitless" would depend on what you invested the time in otherwise. If TV or spanking the monkey is the answer then I couldn't disagree with you more. Not saying you do this personally but for a vast majority of the general population this is the alternate to actually talking to people.

[Giovonny]

spinaronnie,

Day Game is a rough business. Jankas numbers seemed a little low. I bet Roosh and Mixx would do much better.

But, I don't think Janka tried to hard for the bang. He only cared about collecting phone numbers so he could sell books on how to collect phone numbers.

The most important part of Day Game is actually the follow up. You gotta have a strong first phone call and a strong first date. The bang happens in the follow up. You have to use multiple aspects of your Game to get laid. Its more then just approaching during the day.

I think cold approach day game is the hardest way to get laid. You should try to cultivate other niches. I have no idea what my numbers are but I would guess that 1-5 out of 100 sounds about right.

Approach 100 girls during the day and see what happens. If you bang 2, you are better then Janka.

[Neo]

Whichever way you spin it is a numbers game. While 1.5% does seem extremely low, I think someone must be a god of game to get an 8-10% cold approach to sex percentage in the long run.

It's the shotgun approach that would kill the percentages for me. If the decision is made to go after almost every cute girl you see (ala Janka) the percentages are really low. On the other hand, if you see a good looking girl who seems like the type of girl who would go for you then the odds are way higher. I've gotten better at noticing which type of personalities are open to hooking up with a guy such as myself and which aren't. If I see a cute girl a lot of times my intuition will tell me if she's open to who I am and what I'm bringing in a few seconds before I even talk to her. The positive side is I have a better chance, the bad part is although the girls looks differ it's like I'm banging the same type of girl over and over again.

There are a lot of factors that contribute. For example there is a happy hour bar my buddy and I go to for drinks every week. I get constantly eye fucked by the girls there and they are receptive to my approaches. Then I can get out of the bar walk literally 50 feet go into another place approach 10 girls and get rejected by all 10. It's really that different. Roosh has written about this, his blog and books are like the almost infinite knowledge source of game. When I think I've discovered something about game, a lot of the time I see Roosh has written a post about it in 2007.

[hypesession]

Neo: As we all know, game is strongly based on adaptability.

Maybe you're desired/different demographic would be more receptive toward you if you learned more about them, what they're all about, and played to that.

[Excelsior]

When I made statements in other threads like this, this, and also this, this is the type of information I had in mind.

[Vicious]

(07-07-2011 08:03 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

When I made statements in other threads like this, this, and also this, this is the type of information I had in mind.

From what I gather you don't believe in day game, is that what you're saying?

[Blackhawk]

The advantage of Day Game is that you meet totally different kinds of women. Ones that don't hang out in bars. You meet a much larger cross-section of the population on any given day.

Problems: Window is really, really small. Between 5-8pm on weekdays, and all Saturday and Sunday. Other hours you're only meeting students and the unemployed. While theoretically you can day game while going about your own day-to-day tasks, I find myself getting too invested in task completion and often too distracted doing these tasks to notice as much as I should.

Laundromats were once the classic day-game setting. Everyone did their laundry, and there were lots of bored girls sitting around waiting for an hour. Now where I live, there are no laundromats.

Places where you queue I will use to warm up, talking to strangers in line at the grocery store, restaurants, etc. But the time is too limited and people have task completion after leaving the queue. (Hot food to eat, milk to get home to the refrigerator) so it's unsurprising there's low success there. People are too busy.

Bookstores, coffee houses at least have people more relaxed and in a browsing mood. Art shows, street fairs, and other civic events are very mixed. Some women get into task completion mode of seeing all the booths and there's no way you're delaying that, others are there for fun and approachable. Octoberfests and any event with a beer and wine tent are great.

Cities are also expanding running "wine and art" street fairs where you buy a wine glass with that year's logo on it and then are allowed to roam around openly with a glass of wine in your hand while peering at paintings. The glass is an interesting prop --there's a definite "member of the club" vibe people get from seeing you with it.

I know guys who do exclusively 2k marathon game. Guys always finish before the girls, and there's a heavy party atmosphere past the finish line.

And of course there's small events held in private homes, which there's a debate if that's Day Game or not. These have incredible rates of success, but with a very limited pool of people available. A valid day game strategy is going to as many small private parties as possible. I know people who drive between 5 or more house parties in one day, making an appearance at each. To me, that seems like a lot of driving, but it works for them.

[Selva]

(07-07-2011 02:46 AM)Jack_007 Wrote:  

(07-06-2011 09:32 PM)Selva Wrote:  

I also only approach girls who give me an indication of interest and then pounce.

Even if I don't get indicators of interest I make the approach if the girl is hot. If I see her in front of me, walking, my only option is to come from behind and open her.

I think I need to clarify what I mean by girls who give me an indicator of interest. When I am walking down the street or riding in a bus I am making eye contact with every woman I see.

When I see a woman I think is attractive I try to elicit a response. I smile, bat my eyes, wave with my fingers, make head motions, or whatever else a girl needs to let her know she has caught my eye. If she smiles or gives me a lingering glance I approach right away.

This might seem slightly goofy, but I prefer to think of it as endearing. I have heard from dozens of Peruanas that they are sick to death of the machismo of Peruvian men, so being all Rico Suave doesn't seem to be the best bet. Being funny and sweet and polite works great for me.

[Excelsior]

(07-07-2011 08:22 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(07-07-2011 08:03 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

When I made statements in other threads like this, this, and also this, this is the type of information I had in mind.

From what I gather you don't believe in day game, is that what you're saying?

Pretty much. I'll concede that it has its usefulness and I have used it on occasion, but I generally do not believe in it (especially when combined with the cold-approach). Return on Investment is just too poor.

Then again, this argument does have a cultural aspect to it.

[Vicious]

(07-07-2011 10:49 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(07-07-2011 08:22 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

From what I gather you don't believe in day game, is that what you're saying?

Pretty much. I'll concede that it has its usefulness and I have used it on occasion, but I generally do not believe in it (especially when combined with the cold-approach). Return on Investment is just too poor.

Then again, this argument does have a cultural aspect to it.
[/quote]

Yes, I think you are looking at this from an American perspective. As many travellers on the forum states (including myself) there are countries/cultures where the day game hook ups are far less flaky than their night equivalent.

And as mentioned above, the return on the time investment is only poor if you used that saved time for something truly worthwhile.

[Moma]

I do day game. You can't just go for any number, after a while, you get a feel if the lizard is interested or she is just a time waster looking to get her ego stroked.

If I feel the woman is just being nice to give me a number (women in Toronto give out their number as easy as 1, 2, 3, I won't bother getting that.

I am ruling out brownnosing out of my profile. If a woman isn't 'bout it, or I get a feeling of wasting time, I don't bother with her. I don't need any more friends.

As some of the more weathered guys here say, you have to establish some kino and spit some kind of flame where she will be pretty much validated or invalidated according to her response to what you are saying.

For instance, maybe you make a strong suggestion about her coming over to your place later on. Judging by her body language to that may determine how serious she is.

It depends on the cultural background of the lizard you approach as well. There are many factors in play.

You might want to segment your lays against lizards of a different cultural background i.e. numbers / Americanised white lizards / Eastern European lizards/ Western European lizards /asian lizards / indian lizards / black lizards / African lizards / Caribbean lizards / Latin lizards etc.

See if there is any stronger results in any particular group.

What you SHOULD NOT do, is dismiss day game because of the low turn out.

Either you get pussy, or die wanking.

Which choice will YOU make?

[CupCake]

(07-07-2011 12:47 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Either you get pussy, or die wanking. Which choice will YOU make?

Haha! I could see this on a bumper sticker.

[speakeasy]

Check this out. I have to wonder if it's faked. This woman was literally spreading her legs for these men and they and didn't approach. I know the average man won't cold approach a woman, but I find it hard to believe the still won't approach under a situation like this. I'm sure even those amongst us here who don't cold day game approach wouldn't have hesitated to walk up to her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYAXj8A4AAc&NR=1

[Gmac]

(07-07-2011 07:53 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Check this out. I have to wonder if it's faked. This woman was literally spreading her legs for these men and they and didn't approach. I know the average man won't cold approach a woman, but I find it hard to believe the still won't approach under a situation like this. I'm sure even those amongst us here who don't cold day game approach wouldn't have hesitated to walk up to her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYAXj8A4AAc&NR=1

Is that french? Hahaha. I'm not sure how I'd handle that.

[speakeasy]

(07-07-2011 08:29 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

(07-07-2011 07:53 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Check this out. I have to wonder if it's faked. This woman was literally spreading her legs for these men and they and didn't approach. I know the average man won't cold approach a woman, but I find it hard to believe the still won't approach under a situation like this. I'm sure even those amongst us here who don't cold day game approach wouldn't have hesitated to walk up to her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYAXj8A4AAc&NR=1

Is that french? Hahaha. I'm not sure how I'd handle that.

I don't know where it is, but the letters on the screen are Cyrillic so either Russia, Ukraine or somewhere in SE Europe.

[spinaroonie]

This guy does day game and has better numbers than Paul Janka. His game is more structured.

http://www.seductionpath.com/posts/my-results-for-2010

Quote:

My results for 2010
16/01/2011

Last summer I started logging all my approaches in a spreadsheet.

After 2010 was over, I checked the spreadsheet to get answers to some of my questions.

Mainly, I wanted to find out how many days I should call until I delete her number.

Some notes before you read the rest of the post:

most of my approaches were day game (around 80-90%)
the duration of most of my sets were 5 minutes (I’m usually in a hurry during the day and don’t go out to pick up women)
the statistics apply to my style of game (if you want to find out how I approach join my mailing list by entering your email on the “Free Training” on the right)
I only approached girls “cute and above” (no fatties, no strange psychotic girls)
Here’s what I discovered while crunching the data:

from a total of 250 phone numbers (80-90% of which are day game number closes)
end results were: 63 dates (I got a date with one in four girls I number closed) and 32 lays (half of the girls I dated ended with a lay)
I attribute at least 5 of my LMRs that didn’t finalized into a lay due to my bad boy strategy (lack of comfort, intense sexual presence) with which I quickly got the girl home, I got LMR and her ASD kicked in the day after. Also, some girls I discarded on the first date because I didn’t like them.

Statistics regarding how many days pass by until I got the date:

instant dates (+ same day lays): 12
dates on second day (a date the day after the number close): 15
dates on 3rd day: 4
dates on 4th day: 6
dates on 5th day: 7
dates on 6th day: 5
dates on the second week: 11
dates on 3rd week: 1
girl that took more than 2 weeks: 2
* this is from the point I got her number, in some cases I called the very next day, in others I didn’t; statistically it didn’t matter, if I didn’t get the date on the second week I almost never got it after

What’s my conclusion while looking at these numbers? If I can’t get the girl on the second week (assuming I have a free schedule) …. I shouldn’t bother!

* of course, there are exceptions, mainly that the girl is away on weekends (or during the week) or that I am busy. I pursued only 2 girls successfully for more than 2 weeks (and yes, it was worth it) but if she’s not *amazing*, it’s a no no.

I got these results using my bad boy strategy in which I also tried to get the date as quickly as possible. My next project is to try a laid back approach (calling less and leaving a lot of days in between) to see if I improve my results.

[spinaroonie]

Interesting contrast in day game pickup styles:

Paul Janka "natural" game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kA1-BI5V5A

Mystery Method "routine" game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cgmIMvgYY0

Which is less likely to flake?

[hypesession]

(07-08-2011 12:01 AM)spinaroonie Wrote:  

Interesting contrast in day game pickup styles:

Paul Janka "natural" game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kA1-BI5V5A

Mystery Method "routine" game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cgmIMvgYY0

Which is less likely to flake?

Janka's is a total flake. He was in and out in 5 seconds, and he made the asking for directions an obvious pretense without fleshing out the interaction.

But the Australian dude, ugh. I'm very biased in that I hate the opinion opener garbage, I would have no respect for any woman who entertains that.

It looks like his would stick though, he definitely smoothed it out after that opinion BULLSHIT. : ) and the how well do you know each other BULLSHIT. : )