[therealpoder]

I gravitate around being a) uncertain about the existence of God and b) believing in the existence of God while recognizing that I know nothing about him and will never know anything about him; with this view I only know that God created everything and that's it.

I also think that God may be active in events around the world. I am even more skeptical about organized religion and don't follow one.

I used to consider myself an atheist but the claims of atheism are too strong for me. Under a preponderance of the evidence standard, something more likely to be true than false, I definitely think there is a god. Under a stronger standard like proof beyond a reasonable doubt, 95% certainty, there is some doubt. Hence I cannot state God exists as a fact. But if one has faith, I can imagine that one can fill that 5% void.

[Dr. Howard]

(01-25-2016 08:23 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

So if there is a god, there must also be the direct opposite of this god. You're telling me demons and undead are real? Never seen one, never heard of one unless it was some gypsy mouthing off about curses

I don't have problems with people believing in religion, its when people start proclaiming it to be the only way and hell forbid anyone else.

Agreed. I'm curious as to why there must be an anti-thesis to God? Because of Newton's laws or Platonic philosophy?

[The Father]

(01-25-2016 01:30 AM)PrtSc Wrote:  

No, I do not believe in God. Most people believe in God because that's what they were taught or what their parents believe. Stepping outside of the framework instilled upon you and into reality - even if it's a painful truth, I consider to be red pill.

I actually come from a Christian family and went to Catholic school. I didn't exactly realize it at the time, but I never believed in God or religion from a very early age. ...

...The thing about religion is that it's an emotional thing. You'll have people who believe because they want to think deceased family members are in heaven. You'll have people who believe because their whole family/community does, and they want to be a part of it. You'll have people who simply need to have an explanation to why things are the way they are and why they should be good people. I've learned that you will never change these peoples' minds. A person has to want to closely examine their belief system themselves, otherwise their mind won't budge.

...I do find it a little odd when I meet believers under the age of 30 or 40

A lot of what you say resonates with me. Being of Mexican descent, I also was sent to a catholic school, and rebelled because the people didn't impress me as being particularly insightful.

[The Father]

(01-25-2016 02:09 AM)1026 Wrote:  

God is the 'one-ness'.

God is Love.

Don't look at God as some central being, that may be located at any one particular location.

God goes from 'nowhere to now-here'.

I envisage God more as a universal consciousness or an energy than anything else.

& I tell you this. We are all Gods. Made in his image.

Remember you are a soul having the experience of being human (not the other way round)

Our lives are just a hologram matrix we perceive & experience.
A universe of our creation.

Money, Game, Fame, Family all these things are mere distraction

The end game is to remember who we really are.

This is pretty much what I've come to believe. I really enjoyed the post. Particularly about remembering who we really are. My ego got in the way of that for a LONG time.

[glugger]

Someone mentioned Intelligent Design was bad science, can you please explain why?

[Wutang]

(01-25-2016 10:34 AM)The Father Wrote:  

(01-25-2016 01:30 AM)PrtSc Wrote:  

No, I do not believe in God. Most people believe in God because that's what they were taught or what their parents believe. Stepping outside of the framework instilled upon you and into reality - even if it's a painful truth, I consider to be red pill.

I actually come from a Christian family and went to Catholic school. I didn't exactly realize it at the time, but I never believed in God or religion from a very early age. ...

...The thing about religion is that it's an emotional thing. You'll have people who believe because they want to think deceased family members are in heaven. You'll have people who believe because their whole family/community does, and they want to be a part of it. You'll have people who simply need to have an explanation to why things are the way they are and why they should be good people. I've learned that you will never change these peoples' minds. A person has to want to closely examine their belief system themselves, otherwise their mind won't budge.

...I do find it a little odd when I meet believers under the age of 30 or 40

A lot of what you say resonates with me. I also was sent to a catholic school, and rebelled because the people didn't impress me as being particularly insightful. And, i've learned enough (including in some college classes) to know that many if not most of the major tenants of christianity (and probably judaism and islam) were borrowed from pagan religions. So for many years, I didn't believe. I also realize, as you've said, that many believe because it's happier for them to think they'll see their dead relatives again.

I don't know about any of that stuff. I don't believe most of it. But I have come to believe in the possibility of a collective higher consciousness. I like the view expressed by an earlier poster above, that god IS the universe, not an individual. I believe there is something, but it's nothing we can imagine and certainly nothing like we've been taught. It's nothing like what people are killing themselves over.

I've noticed Catholic school seems to be a big incubator for creating atheists. My old college roommate who is also one of my best friends went to Catholic high school and he is an agnostic and pretty cynical of religion in general - same goes with all his old classmates that I have met. I don't think a single one of them is a practicing Catholic today.

Back in college I used to go to a Bible study with some Catholics which was run by another friend of mine (who is actually in seminary now to become a priest) and even they talked about noticing that whenever you run into a bitter, anti-religious person there's a good chance that person will be Catholic. I asked my seminary friend the question of why so many people who went to Catholic school end up so disgruntled about the religion. His answer was that he didn't go to Catholic school himself but he had heard from someone that did that the trend in Catholic school is to be very go through the motions when it comes to the religious aspect and it inspires a lot of cynicism. I thought back to the stories my roommate would tell me about high school and it was way more wild then anything I experienced going to a secular public school.

[Samseau]

The fact is, none of us here would exist with Christianity. There are many historical miracles which have sustained our civilization that defy all explanation.

- The survival of Christianity despite the first 200 years of intense persecution, both by Jews and non-Jews.
- Constantine's victory and conversion of the Roman empire.
- The first crusade.
- The Spanish reconquista and discovery of America.
- The resurgence of Christianity in Russia despite insane persecution under Communism.
- The general superiority of Christian cultures relative to their competitors; this pattern holds across races as well. Ethiopia for example, the oldest Christian country in Africa, was the only country to resist European colonization militarily and has the strongest African economy in the world without Whites despite being landlocked.

And people tell me it's a coincidence? That takes more faith than believing in a God who is purposely directing things.

[thoughtgypsy]

Yes. After a long internal battle over this issue, I have become a believer.

I want to share the relevant parts of my journey with those who are on the fence. I understand a lot of your objections to religion because I recently held them, and I can relate. Speaking about what brought me to the point of belief may help you realize some things you may have not discovered.

Last year I was going through a traumatic experience. One thing that helped me overcome the issue was humbling myself by reading about those who have gone through much worse than me. I began reading The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksander Solzhenitsyn. In it, he described the absolute horror people were subjected to under the Soviet regime. It is truly a masterpiece that every man must read if he is to understand humanity. It is simultaneously a warning of the unspeakable evil that humanity is capable of, and the incredible glory of a soul which remains unbroken through endless suffering. One part in particular stood out to me:

Quote:

I could have replied to him very firmly, but prison had already undermined my certainty, and the principal thing was that some kind of clean, pure feeling does live within us, existing apart from all our convictions, and right then it dawned upon me that I had not spoken out of conviction but because the idea had been implanted in me from outside. And because of this I was unable to reply to him, and I merely asked him: “Do you believe in God?” “Of course,” he answered tranquilly.

It was then that I began to question why athiesm was being promoted so fervently in popular culture and academia. Athiests may say that they're minorities and often marginalized, but it's plain to see which belief system is glorified and which is punished. Throughout college, professors would openly mock Christianity and encourage students to join in. It was made to seem laughable and shameful. Look at the recent cases of Christian business owners are being treated with absolute derision, and held to legal double standards. The athiest worldview is actively being promoted, and I was curious why this was.

I began reading The Bible. I had difficulty squaring some of what I read with my own experience. Specifically, the Israelites experienced numerous miraculous occurrences, and it made me question why God doesn't make himself shown or otherwise provide irrefutable proof of his existence in the modern era. Does this sound familiar to any of you?

Shortly after I began reading The Bible, I began experiencing night paralysis. I was conscious, but unable to move or speak. Imagine trying to scream or get up, but nothing happens. It was an unpleasant experience to say the least. I read that there's a rational explanation for it, and that it's due to the physical body still being in 'sleep mode'. But I couldn't shake off the feeling of terror no matter how much I tried to rationalize it. There just felt like a malevolent presence was involved.

About this time, I read an article on ROK that really made me open my mind to the possibility that all of this was real. It describes a man's personal experience during an exorcism.

Quote:

This took place in the middle of June. It was about 90 degrees outside, but as soon as we crossed the threshold into the house it was like stepping into a meat locker. I went from sweating a bit to being able to see my breath, and it definitely wasn’t because of any air conditioning.

The couple’s infant child was in a crib in the living room. They said the baby would wail and cry uncontrollably inside its upstairs room until they took him out. I noticed that the baby, bundled up in blankets, and the pet dog spent most of that morning staring at the top of the staircase and whimpering.

...

If being “red pill” means seeing the world as it really is, then men need to understand that there is more to this world than sensory experience. You may not believe in the supernatural but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. To borrow a line from Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, you had best unfuck yourself or Satan’s minions will unscrew your head and shit down your neck.

The whole article can be found here, and I would encourage you all to read it: http://www.returnofkings.com/69943/what-...e-exorcist

Some of the comments were also interesting:

Quote:

Fair enough, folks. I won't say that I've seen things move by themselves, or heads spin 180.

Sometimes, in the weeks following an occult ritual, I had flashes of knowledge (suddenly knowing, for example, the exact atomic weight of Boron) followed by a long bout of depression. Occasionally, I would become immediately outraged, with no cause. Most nights my bedroom was full of whispers. These were easily explained away.

A few times I had something (with a name - they always had names) talk to me, follow me around, and mock me. That was less easy, but each time it happened I would give up the occult for a while, and they'd eventually go away.

I left the occult because, when I was attempting to call on a Goetic demon (using the Lemegeton), an angel appeared. It seemed to radiate malice, and it mocked me for a fool.

I called on Jesus in absolute terror, and the thing fled. I then had a "Damascus road" experience wherein the presence of the Lord weighed me to the floor as I became fully aware of my sin and need for the Savior.

So it worked out in the end. Still don't recommend it.

A few months later, I read a post by Ambicatus in the "Biggest Red Pill you ever had to Swallow" thread (thread-51980...pid1160132 ), where he stated that demonic possession is real. I inquired his experiences regarding that, and he took considerable time and effort to share his story. It gave me the confidence to share my sleep paralysis story with him, and he gave me more insight into what may be going on behind it.

Ambicatus Wrote:

Those dreams you describe are something I used to experience as a child and once or twice as an adult too. It's known as "sleep paralysis" in the medical/psychological world but it's pretty obviously demonic oppression since the only cure for it seems to be prayer. It really is awful though, that feeling of abject terror and helplessness when you can't move or even cry out and you just have to endure it.

...

I think it's pertinent to note that you experienced the spiritual oppression of wagering and sleep paralysis only after you began reading the Bible. This brings up another commonly misunderstood thing about demonic manifestations.

The manifestations themselves are actually an indication of desperation on the part of the demon. You see, if you had a demon while you were an atheist, then why would he manifest? He knows that all he has to do is keep quiet wait for you to die and your soul then belongs to Satan, whom he serves.

But if you start making inroads into the faith then he has a serious problem. Then it becomes in his best interest to discourage you at all costs. Also I don't know what else you were doing, but we know from the Bible that demons seem to up the manifestations around Jesus' holy people (and Jesus) - have a look at Acts 16:16-18 and Luke 4:31-36 to see what I mean.

Following that discussion, I began to read The Bible more, and I started praying, though rationally I was still on the fence. The sleep paralysis came back, almost every night. One night it was especially vivid. I specifically recall trying to move my arm to make a cross, and to say "Praise Jesus", but my arm couldn't move and I couldn't speak. I consider myself hyper rational, but the experience and the feeling of abject terror I felt was undeniable. I simply couldn't deny it any longer. I consciously accepted God and became a believer. The sleep paralysis stopped.

There are a few other points I wanted to address, and I will get to them in a future post.

[kaotic]

Short Answer:

I don't know.

Long Answer:

Growing up in a conservative Muslim household I was taught to fear and respect god. It didn't help that my mother subjugated this to me, instead of a loving and caring god. Reason was, I always would question (anything) ever since a young age, hence why punishment and fear was used to teach.

I went through a phase in my teens where I snapped, denounced everything, said god was false, etc.

Nowadays, I simply say "I don't know", I obviously don't make any conceited effort to find out or become religious. I've trying to become better and treating people how I wanted to be treated. I avoid negativity and enjoy positive people and good vibes.

I don't judge anyone who talks about religion or practices, as long as you aren't an asshole or use it in a violent way. I don't like when people look down on one another.

I guess never have really made time for religion or have an interest - it's just there.

Obviously we see some of the major benefits of religion (or course comes with some bad)

[Truth Teller]

(01-25-2016 10:52 AM)glugger Wrote:  

Someone mentioned Intelligent Design was bad science, can you please explain why?

Sure. Science is methodologically naturalistic. That is, it looks for natural answers to questions about the natural world. It seeks to explain how things occur, not why they do. Science usually has multiple levels of explanation, even if we can't yet find them.

Intelligent Design argues for "inference to an intelligent agent." That's fine, but that's not science. It's philosophy. Saying that an intelligent agent created the universe (which I believe, by the way) is not a scientific answer. How did this agent do so?

Intelligent Design unfortunately blurs the lines between primary (divine) and secondary (natural) causality. Science can only test secondary causality, but ID tries to make it test both.

[EDantes]

(01-24-2016 07:20 PM)The Father Wrote:  

I go back and forth. Sometimes I get very clinical...scientific method..."there's no evidence of it", I say. At those times I feel like an atheist. Then I say there's no evidence there's not a god, and I feel like an agnostic. Other times, I'm convinced there's "some" collective spirit, but it's very different than what the major religions say (who have added a lot of their own silly rules, don't eat this or that, etc).

The best evidence I can think of for God is that people crave him. People don't usually crave things that don't exist. I'm hungry, I crave food. And their is food. When I'm thirsty, I crave water...and there is water, of course. Well, people have craved a higher power, or a deeper meaning, since men drew on cave walls.

I'm at an "in between" spot right now...I want to believe in something...I'm just not sure what or how.

I've always felt there was some serious brain power on this board...I'd sincerely welcome your perspectives on why I should, or should not, believe in God.

I won't get into the nitty gritty but I think you can prove God using logic and other areas of knowledge.

Basically I think the fundamentals of existence are symmetry (order, beauty, good) and asymmetry (disorder, ugliness, evil) - if order exists (and it does) and order is equal to God, this means god exists.

[Pride male]

I dont believe in God I believe in myself.

[The Beast1]

There is very much "God".

However, it doesn't look like this or anything we can possibly fathom:

[MiscBrah]

^I'm surprised to see you posting that TheBeast

I always thought from your posts that you would be an atheist.

I very much believe in God and its because of my correspondence with the poster Scorpion on this forum that I do.

I'll go into more depth in the near future

[avantgarde]

Truth teller please elaborate what you said, the Vatican church clearly has egyptobabylonian symbols, first thing you see is an obelisk!! Obelisk is Egyptian and related to the Osiris and Isis. Then They have a giant pine cone sculpture, symbol of pineal gland ie the third eye, the all seeing psychic eye. The shit goes on.

[FilipSRB]

Being a regular reader of this forum probably had the biggest impact in me coming back to my Orthodox Christian faith.

[avantgarde]

Dr Howard, just look around the world, if you believe in a solely just God, but there is wickedness everywhere and the rulers are wicked, there must be s source of wickedness. If not, your God ain't only just and kind but semi benevolent.

[The Beast1]

(01-25-2016 03:34 PM)MiscBrah Wrote:  

^I'm surprised to see you posting that TheBeast

I always thought from your posts that you would be an atheist.

I very much believe in God and its because of my correspondence with the poster Scorpion on this forum that I do.

Thanks, but i'm curious why you'd think that?

I have a lot of posts in the deep forum about this topic. I've spent a lot of time trying to find bridges between traditional science and theology. Surprisingly, i've found a lot. Things like sin and evolution as well as quantum theory. The doubt slit experiment comes to mind. Things acting differently when observed. You can't tell me that something more clever than us is playing a rouse.

I've always had the impression that the world around me isn't real except for intelligent life. If that includes plants too then so be it, but I don't really care to know. There is something to be said about souls and the like.

Between psychedelics, the bible, non-canonical gnostic texts what I think, and other strange esoteric things I think I have a pretty rough idea of what's out there (I hope).

[avantgarde]

But even in asymmetry there is conplex order. Even in physics the weak force is asymmetric.
Many biological molecules would be u functional if symmetric ie chiral specific proteins polysaccharide sugars, and on.
I thought order was a quality of God and disorder could be something opposing.

[Irenicus]

When I take into consideration everything I witnessed and experienced, I do believe that there is some higher form of intelligence (organic matter could not develop from non organic matter, for example) - read agnostic.

Whatever that is, in my opinion, that force (you can call it God, Jedi Force) does not deserve worship, because it simply does not care about me, about my people and my species. If a girl does not care about you, why you should care about her, honestly speaking? Not worth it.

We all witnessed and still witness various kinds of degeneracy around us, which defy natural order. Where is He? Why he does He let it happen?

Where was He when I needed him the most during my childhood, which was very traumatic?

You did not care about me, why should I care about You?

TLDR - I do believe in some higher form of intelligence, but it simply is not worth of worship, because it does not care about us!

By the way, guys, this is a good topic, really worth of discussion. But please, keep it civil. After all, I really want to be proven wrong.

[BortimusPrime]

Careful not to shift of the focus of the question. We aren't debating whether or not belief in God is more adaptive or prosocial, or whether or not Christianity is the best existing culture. Neither of those things prove or disprove the existence of God.

[Disco_Volante]

Irenicus - bad things happen because men are given choice. we can create hell or heaven on earth in terms of society.

we could have good families with strict morals, or we could go around raping and killing and creating 200 trillion in debt, nukes, etc..

that's the point - our sentience gives us a wide range of choices of how we want to behave and impact others in this world. That's why it's said we're made in the 'image of God'. we have some abilities and powers - choice being one of them. Are you going to follow a path of self control and integrity? or will men just pick up weapons and rape and kill eachother. we can choose whatever we want, but there's consequences.

If God 'corrected' every bad thing that happened, our choices would not matter, and we'd be more like toddlers than men. If anything, bad consequences are the only proof our reality even exists in the first place. Our souls are given 'teeth' in this realm of physics because our will can translate into helping someone or torturing someone. The physical plane allows us to express our will.

who has created the best 'reality'? Christian countries. The more they move collectively away from Christianity, the shittier their reality becomes. (France, Germany, etc)

[CostinR]

Quote:

who has created the best 'reality'? Christian countries. The more they move collectively away from Christianity, the shittier their reality becomes. (France, Germany, etc)

This is something the anti-religious crowd would so readily dismiss but the reality is that the Jewish/Christian religions have brought a great deal of progress and prosperity to the whole of the human race. So easy to dismiss Christianity as a force of evil because of the Crusade while ignore the schools, universities and charities run by the various Christian churches or how the Papal States worked extremely hard to bring a measure of peace and stability in Europe against the firm wishes of various European monarchs.

[robreke]

Yes

[Hades]

The opportunity cost of believing in God may be low depending on the person, but it's not necessarily zero. If you're a man and inclined towards action, belief in God changes your self image.

They've done a lot of studies on similar things. I'm cribbing straight out of some book I read a long while back.

For instance, if you ask somebody a small favor, like if they'd be willing to post up a friendly and apolitical "Go Vote" sign on their lawn, that might awaken some civic-mindedness that would have otherwise been dormant.

A few months later, if this belief takes hold and they ruminate on it somewhat, or are even proud that they're active in the community, you can ask larger and larger favors until pretty soon their front lawn has a huge "VOTE JOHN DOE FOR MAYOR" sign and they're going door to door with flyers and bumper stickers.

The same sort of thing happens if you decide to believe in God and become active in the church. Any effort works, really, but being active in the church is how community happens.

It would follow then that a big part of my nonbelief is that church is objectively terrible.

I go every now and then out of family obligation, but it has changed for the worse. The average age of parishioners has to be around 40 or 50 and there's no marriageable women to be found. Old hags. Beaten down men. Everybody seems to be lower-middle class. I wouldn't consider going there to network or look for a wife. How can the church have any future if there's no reason whatsoever for young women (or any men) to be there?

I saw a poster of the younger men who are in the seminary and they're all goofy looking incels. I bet their sermonizing is just spellbinding.

The Catholic Church needs serious reform, not women preachers either.