[RexImperator]

Anyone deal with this issue?

Last year I dropped weight for over 12 months. It took me that long to undo my RVF-recommended Starting Strength dreamer bulking program. Went from 250+ to 212 at the end of September. However, by then I was feeling burnt out from dieting plus life stresses and decided to relax and enjoy some food a bit more. Since then (basically no time at all-8 weeks) I've gone back up to 230. I do track all my calories with myfitnesspal.

On the plus side, I've regained a bunch of strength. Food seems almost like steroids in that regard.

Is the solution to attempt more rapid/extreme weight loss, such as a protein-sparing modified fast?

[Saweeep]

It sounds like you have a body very similar to mine...able to put on muscle and fat very very easily.

I put on weight, to a certain point, if I'm not training hard, even if I eat perfectly clean. My body just wants to be big, strong and sit at about 20% body fat. That's its natural state. It takes a lot of effort for me to maintain lower than that...literally watching every single thing that goes in my mouth and training every day.

I'm very carb sensitive and I think you may be too if you're like me. They are the enemy for my body type.

It's tough. I console myself with the fact that it's preferable to being a hard gainer. Those guys have it worst in my opinion.

[jbkunt2]

In my opinion, people should just focus on trying to be as for and healthy as possible. Watch what you eat and don't over indulge.

That's it.

Don't be worrying about if you have x.% body fat or if you could only add an extra inch to your arms. It's pointless because it is so difficult and unlikely to get the physique you exactly want.

Just do your best and feel good with what you have.

Dressing well will make more of an impact than an extra 10% push in diet and gym work for most people.

[britchard]

Genetics. That's it. You just have to work harder at cutting fat. However envious you might be of ultra high metabolism lifters, remember that they find it much harder to put on muscle. It's balanced.

On a side note, I think that there should be more emphasis on the potential risks of doing a dirty/dreamer bulk on starting strength. Several newbies are just told "eat till you're sick and do starting strength", which isn't always a good idea.

[Anabasis to Desta]

... for you.

Everybody is different.

I'm 6'1 and my body "wants" to desperately stay at a lean and skinny 160 pounds. Currently 210 pounds on a somewhat steady 3500-4000 calorie/day diet for the past year 2 years or so. If i drop my calorie intake to under 2500 and stop lifting i drop down to 170-ish within 5-6 weeks. It's truly insane.

I do not recommend anything rapid/extreme!

Consistency is key here. A slow and steady weight loss regimen that you can maintain even when life throws punches at you, beats a perfect program which requires a huge amount of focus and discipline which lets you lose 20 pounds in a month.

When you lose that focus and, the weight keeps creeping back up and you find yourself sitting back at your original weight it will get you into a "why do i even bother" mindset.

Find a program that you can readily incorporate into your lifestyle without feeling like it is taking away from it. Whenever you get the time or burst of motivation go for the extreme weight loss options you mentioned.

[H1N1]

It's certainly true, and true for all of us. I struggle more to put on muscle than I do to lose fat, but neither is by any means easy. I think what I'd try, were I in your position, would be to do short diet phases (6 weeks or so) in a significant calorie deficit, say c.1000 under maintenance, then eat at maintenance for a week or two to give yourself a break mentally and to restore some of your energy/phosphate/whatever magic it is reserves. I perfer IF for this style of dieting, as it lets you eat a couple of really satisfying meals each day, which you can actually look forward to. For example, I'm coming to the end of my cut and am having to be quite meticulous to keep the scale moving. For lunch I ate a 5 whole egg omlette, 100g low fat cheese, 2 tomatos, and put some chillis in it to make it more interesting. That's 55g protein for under 800 calories - if progress stalls I may ditch a couple of yokes. For supper, I will have 100g (raw weight) white rice, 250g 5% beef, some kidney beans etc, all rolled into a decent portion of chilli con carne. That'll come in at c.1000 calories for 65-70g protein. It's at the lower end of my protein intake for a day, but I tend to balance this stuff out over 48 hours, and concentrate on keeping the calorie total sub 2k. This last week or two is going to be miserable, but it should be worth it, as eating at maintenance will be a breeze by comparison.

[Hannibal]

Give the rapid fat loss program a shot. Send me a PM if you're not sure where to start or you don't want to read the book.

I see everyone talking about sustainable weight loss, which is great and all, but a fatter dude is going to get very discouraged with a moderate approach because a week's worth of dieting can be undone with a thanksgiving dinner. Results are hard to see when you're above 20% bodyfat.

I wouldn't tell someone with $50k in student loan debt to pay the minimum payment for the next twenty years, I'd tell them to learn frugality and stuff half their paychecks at it until it goes away in three. I don't see a weight problem any differently.

You tried the moderate approach for over a year, what do you have to lose with the extreme approach for a couple months? Make it work and you can get back to building muscle and getting stronger by February instead of yoyoing around for another year.

[PolymathGuru]

There are some questions you need to know.

Where does homeostasis exist?

Did you lose a lot of water weight when you made your initial weight loss? You tend to lose glycogen when you lose weight.

It also takes time for your metabolism to catch up. You need to gradually increase your caloric intake. Your body will adopt to use less energy than someone who wasn't dieting at all. The difference can be as much as

Check out this website to get a rough idea how many calories you need to maintain homeostasis.
https://www.healthstatus.com/calculate/dee
Its not perfect but it should do fairly decent for you.

As a general rule of thumb on how much calories you should eat a day.
No Excercise-2000 calories a day
30 to 45 minutes of exercise a day-2400 calories a day.
1 hour to 1 hour and 30 minutes of exercise per a day-2700 calories a day.

[RexImperator]

There's definitely a glycogen/water thing going on as I've noticed the muscles swell up when I eat more carbs. Still, my arms look bigger but softer so I know I regained some fat. Face started to chub out a bit, too.

It's frustrating because I really want to get stronger but I keep having to hold myself back because of "the fattening". I think if I could lose 20lbs of fat and gain 5-10lbs of muscle I could achieve a decent athletic sort of build.

I believe should be able to realistically achieve a 500 deadlift and 405 squat at some point if I could eat more and train hard but it's not worth it if I get too fat again. I need to lose the muffin top and not make it worse.

[H1N1]

(12-03-2015 12:23 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I believe should be able to realistically achieve a 500 deadlift and 405 squat at some point if I could eat more and train hard but it's not worth it if I get too fat again. I need to lose the muffin top and not make it worse.

You should be able to achieve that as it is. You are 40lbs or so heavier than me, and I have achieved those lifts (my squat is now closer to 450lbs, my deadlift is probably less since I haven't trained it specifically in 9 months or so). I don't say this to boast, rather to indicate that strength is not simply a function of size. I suspect you could drop a lot of mass whilst increasing your strength if you trained appropriately.

[PolymathGuru]

(12-03-2015 12:23 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

There's definitely a glycogen/water thing going on as I've noticed the muscles swell up when I eat more carbs. Still, my arms look bigger but softer so I know I regained some fat. Face started to chub out a bit, too.

It's frustrating because I really want to get stronger but I keep having to hold myself back because of "the fattening". I think if I could lose 20lbs of fat and gain 5-10lbs of muscle I could achieve a decent athletic sort of build.

I believe should be able to realistically achieve a 500 deadlift and 405 squat at some point if I could eat more and train hard but it's not worth it if I get too fat again. I need to lose the muffin top and not make it worse.

Your going to have to accept some strength loss with weight loss. As much as we are generally anti-fat here on RVF, the strongest men in the world by raw strength are some of the heaviest men in the world. There is a reason why in a lot of sports there are weight classes.

Once you get to the weight you want, you should be able to recover a lot of your strength, but you have to accept some strength loss and wait for some time to increase your strength.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I'm definitely in the same boat. I'm currently sitting at 215 lb. at 15% BF, after some winter hibernation. Two years ago I was 250 lb. at >25% BF. Every part of my physique is pretty shredded, except the belly. I can see my floating ribs and sternum, but no visible abs.

It's genetic. My Jiu-Jitsu master calls it the "wrestler's build". It seems that hovering in the 15-20% BF is a pretty cyclical and natural state. For us to have shredded abs, we'll have to hover around the 8% range, and be pretty fragile too.

Here's one of my favorite charts that got me started:



There are plateaus of weight loss. Mine was a 200 lb. plateau, but I made these following changes to hit ~185 lb. in two months:

- Replacing rows/bench-press with weighted pull-ups/push-ups
- Walking at least an hour a day or jump rope for 30 min.
- Switching the squat rack for hill sprints/kettle-bells squats. For example, I would do 70 reps. of a goblet squat with an 70 lb. dumbbell rather than just piling plates on a bar.
- Switched two weight-room days for martial arts/calisthenics
- Carbs once every three days. Brown rice and sweet potatoes only. Oatmeal okay. Bread and potatoes are useless. Granola is too calorie-dense for big guys to cut.
- As little sodium as possible. Sugar is okay as long as it comes via. citric fruits.
- Eggs, black coffee, tea, chicken, tuna, onions, broccoli, pumpkin and grapefruit are your new LTR.
- No protein powder, pre-workout and other bullshit. No need to dump chemicals into your system for no reason. I did use some caffeine pills at times.

Damn, I need to start cutting soon. Good luck.

[civpro]

Yes, I'm in the same boat. My body is a fat storing machine.

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

(12-03-2015 01:20 PM)Pontifex Maximus Wrote:  

I'm definitely in the same boat. I'm currently sitting at 215 lb. at 15% BF, after some winter hibernation. Two years ago I was 250 lb. at >25% BF. Every part of my physique is pretty shredded, except the belly. I can see my floating ribs and sternum, but no visible abs.

It's genetic. My Jiu-Jitsu master calls it the "wrestler's build". It seems that hovering in the 15-20% BF is a pretty cyclical and natural state. For us to have shredded abs, we'll have to hover around the 8% range, and be pretty fragile too.

Here's one of my favorite charts that got me started:

...

There are plateaus of weight loss. Mine was a 200 lb. plateau, but I made these following changes to hit ~185 lb. in two months:

- Replacing rows/bench-press with weighted pull-ups/push-ups
- Walking at least an hour a day or jump rope for 30 min.
- Switching the squat rack for hill sprints/kettle-bells squats. For example, I would do 70 reps. of a goblet squat with an 70 lb. dumbbell rather than just piling plates on a bar.
- Switched two weight-room days for martial arts/calisthenics
- Carbs once every three days. Brown rice and sweet potatoes only. Oatmeal okay. Bread and potatoes are useless. Granola is too calorie-dense for big guys to cut.
- As little sodium as possible. Sugar is okay as long as it comes via. citric fruits.
- Eggs, black coffee, tea, chicken, tuna, onions, broccoli, pumpkin and grapefruit are your new LTR.
- No protein powder, pre-workout and other bullshit. No need to dump chemicals into your system for no reason. I did use some caffeine pills at times.

Damn, I need to start cutting soon. Good luck.

I really like this. Can you expand on some of your sources/methods at all?

[heavy]

Cool infogram Pontifex...stuff I knew, but was fun to read in that form

[Pontifex Maximus]

(12-03-2015 03:06 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 01:20 PM)Pontifex Maximus Wrote:  

There are plateaus of weight loss. Mine was a 200 lb. plateau, but I made these following changes to hit ~185 lb. in two months:

- Replacing rows/bench-press with weighted pull-ups/push-ups (BodyWeight+Iron)

- Walking at least an hour a day or jump rope for 30 min. (BodyWeight)

- Switching the squat rack for hill sprints/kettle-bells squats. For example, I would do 70 reps. of a goblet squat with an 70 lb. dumbbell rather than just piling plates on a bar. (BodyWeight+Iron)

- Switched two weight-room days for martial arts/calisthenics. (BodyWeight)

- Carbs once every three days. Brown rice and sweet potatoes only. Oatmeal okay. Bread and potatoes are useless. Granola is too calorie-dense for big guys to cut. (Low Carb = Low Glyco Storage = Less % to store fat)

- As little sodium as possible. Sugar is okay as long as it comes via. citric fruits. ( High Sodium = Water retention + Messed up kidneys + High blood pressure)

- Eggs, black coffee, tea, chicken, tuna, onions, broccoli, pumpkin and grapefruit are your new LTR. ( Metabolism, Fiber and Protein)

- No protein powder, pre-workout and other bullshit. No need to dump chemicals into your system for no reason. I did use some caffeine pills at times.

Damn, I need to start cutting soon. Good luck.

I really like this. Can you expand on some of your sources/methods at all?

There are no sources or doctors. I've wrestled, and played football and basketball since I was 14. So it's only a half-decade of experimenting and noticing changes in my confidence and temper. I'm sure there are much more experienced guys here, so I defer to them.

The idea is just balance. Our grizzly bear bodies are inherently about BIG - easy muscle + easy fat. Every pound of muscle requires extra fat to tag along, whether as protection or lubrication, right? It's inevitable. So one unit of muscle gain will cause more than two units of fat gain. So to lose overall weight we need efficient muscle, not cumbersome muscle. So emphasize body weight to build efficient, lean muscle and only use the iron to supplement in case you feel "too small" after your cut. That's the basic theory.

In practical terms, I would recommend these general changes:

- Compound lifts like squat/dead-lift: Stay heavy.
- Isolated lifts like bicep curls or calf-raises: More reps., less weight. Try 35 reps. of calf raises holding 50 lb. dumbbell in each hand.
- More calisthenics and martial arts and cross-fit. Less lifting sessions.
- Hill sprints, Uphill biking, weighted jump-rope or fornicate for cardio. No need for those 5 mile, ankle-breaking, white MILF jogs.
- Here's a list of of different pushups. I haven't benched in over two years, but I definitely have a tighter torso and better punch when I spar.

Tom Hardy/Bane PushUp Routine

Don't do it so extremely as Elliot describes. A normal man can do chicken and salmon instead of lean tuna and turkey. I took the term "plateau" from this video:

Edit: I don't take credit for that graph.

[StrikeBack]

In general, I agree with the thread title: "Losing weight takes forever; gaining weight happens very fast".

I am certainly one of those who can gain fat and muscle fast, but has to work hard to lose fat.

Blaming it on genetics and going for extreme measures will get you nowhere though. What would help are:

1. Making the correct statement: "I do not know how to achieve my goals yet, and I need to learn more."

2. Asking the right question: "what changes do I need to make to my lifestyle i.e what habits should I acquire to achieve my goals?"

I have been in many shapes since childhood, and every one of those was natural, given my habits and lifestyle at the time.

At first, I was a skinny child with a weak frame. Then I became skinny-fat as a teenager. Late teen - early 20s I moved from skinny-fat to just fat, then back to skinny fat. After taking up lifting (and going through Fattening Strength like the OP did), I went from skinny-fat to built-fat. At this point, things got interesting, because I had acquired just enough knowledge to be dangerous i.e think I knew what I was doing. I believed that I was destined to be a built-fat guy with around 20+% BF and there was no way I would get leaner except for extreme diets, which would be short-lived, and drugs, which I wasn't keen on.

That was until I asked myself those two questions and started to apply new habits which changed my lifestyle. My physique naturally followed. The process was very slow, but I kept all the muscle gains and fat losses I made, and most important of all, my strength (powerlifts) went up. Not just relative to my bodyweight, but I am now literally stronger by pure kilos on the bar than when I was 18kg heavier. I was told at the beginning that it wasn't possible to lose weight AND improve the powerlifts, but I have done it. Not only that, I was achieving it while fighting a serious injury.

I am now at a bit lower than 12% BF, and my body just loves to be around here. I have burgers, pizzas, ice cream etc. in my diet plans, and it doesn't affect me. A few years ago, just thinking about a burger or pizza would probably make me gain a kilo of fat. My current body is my new natural state.

I used to get results from low carbs, high fats, and thought that was the way for my body type, but now I am eating very high carbs, with low-medium fats, and get even better results. It did not happen over night though, I made a very slow transition from the former to the latter, because I prefer high carbs for my lifestyle and training.

I was also told my plan to get abs and start boxing and lifting at the same time was not possible anyway without drugs, because I'm already in my early 30s with the slow metabolism and all that. I have managed to achieve both.

My plan is to lose another 2kg of fat so I could comfortably box as a welterweight amateur, and I still expect to get stronger at powerlifting.

Keep telling yourself that you can do it, you just don't know how to yet, and you'll be able to figure it out too. It's because it puts your brain to work for you, instead of stopping it because you don't believe it's possible.

I'm happy to help with the specifics, but first, Rex, you should do the following:

- Get a DEXA scan to know exactly your current body composition and fat distribution
- Write down all physical activities you do. By that I mean everything, even how much you walk around or how much sex you have!
- Record all your calories in MFP (which you are already doing).

From there you can work out plans to improve, because you now have real data and are not shooting blind.

Expect to learn heaps though, because you will not find nutrition plans nor strength training programs off an Excel spreadsheet from searching the Internet.

[Hades]

Hannibal brought up the PSMF, which bears mention.

OP, you could buy like 100 bucks worth of protein powder and inside of six weeks probably be fairly ripped. You would probably have a bit left over.

I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass, but suppose you're 230 at 23% body fat ->

Back of Envelope PSMF Calculation Wrote:

230(.77) = 177.1 lb LBM

=> 177 + 177(.08) =~ 191 lbs for 8% body fat (ideal)

Roughly 39 pounds of fat loss required

6 weeks on PSMF (fairly clean refeeds, this is important)
This is a crapshoot but based strictly on caloric restriction you'd be cutting like 15000 calories a week lol. That would be about 26 pounds of fat lost if all goes well. 15% bodyfat.

You might have more LBM, I'm not sure. Afterwards you can use your pre-existing dieting skills to stay at maintenance for three or four months and try the PSMF again if you actually want.

[RexImperator]

Whoah, losing 6.5 lbs per week? That doesn't sound possible/correct...?

[RexImperator]

Also, I'm 40 so I think 8% body fat is probably not a realistic goal.

[Hannibal]

Big fat dudes can lose up to a pound a day.


Credit to bodyrecomposition.com.

My average was half a pound a day. I ran it for a month and lost 12 lbs. Since I'm a category 2, I needed a refeed day, which does slow down your fat loss but is 100% necessary for other reasons. So 6 days x 4 weeks x .5lbs fat = 12 lbs. A bigger guy has a faster metabolism so he can expect to burn fat at a faster rate for a while (it does slow down a bit but not much). If you can handle it, it works as intended.

[Kaebs]

(12-04-2015 11:30 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

Big fat dudes can lose up to a pound a day.


Credit to bodyrecomposition.com.

My average was half a pound a day. I ran it for a month and lost 12 lbs. Since I'm a category 2, I needed a refeed day, which does slow down your fat loss but is 100% necessary for other reasons. So 6 days x 4 weeks x .5lbs fat = 12 lbs. A bigger guy has a faster metabolism so he can expect to burn fat at a faster rate for a while (it does slow down a bit but not much). If you can handle it, it works as intended.

Lol, theres no way in hell that you lost half a pound a day! That would equate to 3 pounds of fat loss a week or a 10,500 weekly caloric deficit. In other words your daily caloric deficit would have needed to be 1,750 calories!!! I don't really know why you are exaggerating your fat loss.

[H1N1]

(12-05-2015 03:48 AM)Kaebs Wrote:  

(12-04-2015 11:30 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

Big fat dudes can lose up to a pound a day.


Credit to bodyrecomposition.com.

My average was half a pound a day. I ran it for a month and lost 12 lbs. Since I'm a category 2, I needed a refeed day, which does slow down your fat loss but is 100% necessary for other reasons. So 6 days x 4 weeks x .5lbs fat = 12 lbs. A bigger guy has a faster metabolism so he can expect to burn fat at a faster rate for a while (it does slow down a bit but not much). If you can handle it, it works as intended.

Lol, theres no way in hell that you lost half a pound a day! That would equate to 3 pounds of fat loss a week or a 10,500 weekly caloric deficit. In other words your daily caloric deficit would have needed to be 1,750 calories!!! I don't really know why you are exaggerating your fat loss.

Pretty easy for a fat guy to lose 3 pounds of WEIGHT/week at the start of a diet. It won't all be fat, 1lb or so might be water loss, and an effect of having less sodium in the system. I suspect Hannibal was not being strictly literal when he said 3lb FAT, rather used it loosely to mean 'weight'.

[Hannibal]

(12-05-2015 03:48 AM)Kaebs Wrote:  

Lol, theres no way in hell that you lost half a pound a day! That would equate to 3 pounds of fat loss a week or a 10,500 weekly caloric deficit. In other words your daily caloric deficit would have needed to be 1,750 calories!!! I don't really know why you are exaggerating your fat loss.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not the rapid fat loss diet works here, or my staggeringly average results. Take it to the RFL thread if you want to debate, call bullshit, or whatever. I'll be more than happy to answer your questions there. Or you could go hit up the bodyrecomposition.com forums and ask the forum members there. There are many, many different ways to get leaner and they don't all involve slight caloric deficits over a long period of time.

[Pontifex Maximus]

(12-04-2015 11:30 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

Big fat dudes can lose up to a pound a day.


Credit to bodyrecomposition.com.

My average was half a pound a day. I ran it for a month and lost 12 lbs. Since I'm a category 2, I needed a refeed day, which does slow down your fat loss but is 100% necessary for other reasons. So 6 days x 4 weeks x .5lbs fat = 12 lbs. A bigger guy has a faster metabolism so he can expect to burn fat at a faster rate for a while (it does slow down a bit but not much). If you can handle it, it works as intended.

I had a conversation about this with Kosko in the Intermittent Fasting thread. I lost 7 lbs. in two weeks, but felt like shit. I had to work-out via. sheer will and self-hatred. No energy to approach, no drive to fuck and no patience with clients. I immediately lost 50 lb. off my bench. It's pure lethargy.

My diet was hard-boiled egg yolks, black coffee, lean canned tuna and entire forests of celery/carrots to keep my metabolism up - only about 900 calories/day. Then I did every damn workout I listed above. The fiber in carrots/celery and eggs/coffee kept my metabolism out of "starvation mode". What Hannibal wrote is definitely possible, just not optimal for those among us with steady lifestyles. I had a relative do a similar diet to prepare for surgery. The 225 lb. guy above will look very "small" if he continues, possibly even skinny-fat.

thread-4922-page-4.html

Kosko's answer:

"You need some carbs. Your muscles rely on it's glycogen (sugar) stores for releasing energy. This whole idea of zero carbs is crazy IMO.

Front load whole and dense carbs in your first or "morning" meal. Have sweet potatoes and brown rice. If your are really keeping it thin on carbs each day you will have to have one day to restore your glycogen stores. If try are not replenished you will just continue to spin your wheels with weak muscles unable to push up weight.

IF is a hack of older principles. Your not technically supposed to be going balls to the floor with activity. If you are you has to have the system to ensure you don't burn it out. Having 80-120 grams of whole carbs each day will not kill you, nor make you fat. Especially withy he high intensity of activity you are doing. When I did IF I never did cardio aside from 20 mins twice a week on the bike with a steady brisk heart rate but not enough to sweat and burn.

You likely aren't even getting enough calories either. What is your height? Your current weight? And goals and targets. The food I see you listing used to be one meal for me in IF when I ate twice a day. I was eating around 1800 calories at that time with much less HIT as you are partaking in."


Edit: I forgot to add one super simple and effective advice from Giovonny. If you work a desk job, stand up often.