[Paracelsus]

(12-02-2015 03:29 AM)Lime Wrote:  

Some friends of mine really believe that our country and other countries in Europe can have 20% muslims. I often have discussions with them but it is impossible to discuss with them as they debate from emotion. Anyone here have these kind of friends and how do you deal with them? It's driving me nuts.

Don't.

People who debate from emotion required a personalised Muslim Rape Party turning up on their doorsteps to change their mind.

[It_is_my_time]

(12-02-2015 03:29 AM)Lime Wrote:  

Some friends of mine really believe that our country and other countries in Europe can have 20% muslims. I often have discussions with them but it is impossible to discuss with them as they debate from emotion. Anyone here have these kind of friends and how do you deal with them? It's driving me nuts.

My advice has always been to cut all liberals out of your life. They do nothing but make your life more difficult and hold you back. If you ever need them, they will be the last to help and will remind you about it for decades.

Just cut them out of your life and your life will get much better overnight.

[Jesus Christ]

A liberal is someone who goes by how the world should be, in the land of the ideal. It is why young people and women tend towards it. It is a natural emotional response to say that everyone should have free medical care, or that everyone should be accepted as long as the hurt noone, etc. Notice the near-child-like quality of those arguments. They sound so innocent and carefree.

Conservatism is red-pill. It is hard around the edges. It comes from a life of roughness and mistakes, and realizing that the world is a fucked up place with many harsh realities that need to be accepted. This kind of approach is far more masculine, just feel the toughness of it. A woman is not set out for that. Women (or the male equivalent of a woman, manlets) and children (the young) can afford to be carefree, men cannot.

[Wutang]

(12-01-2015 01:34 PM)therealpoder Wrote:  

(11-30-2015 02:49 AM)Wutang Wrote:  

If you look at the utopian socialists (socialists before Marx and Engels) they were either capitalists themselves, or the children capitalists or some other professional. Marx himself was the son of a middle class lawyer and Engels's father was a capitalist. Despite representing the working class, neither Marx nor Engels worked a real job. Even today, the vast majority of leftists aren't working class. Take Occupy Wall Street for example, "[a] third of protesters in the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York lived in households earning more than $100,000 and more than two- thirds were employed professionals...[w]hile they weren’t all homeless, many of the under-30 crowd who participated in the movement were recently laid off or underemployed, with nearly a quarter saying they work fewer than 35 hours a week." (see: http://nypost.com/2013/01/29/ows-is-expo...d-working/)

The strange irony of socialists saying that they represent the working class is leftists actually hate the working class. They see them as being backwards and stupid and they need someone (like themselves, of course!) to guide them through life. If you don't believe me, read how liberals speak with disdain of people in the "flyover states" or blue collar whites. If they are being nice or if they are an old school Marxist or Leninist, they just say that they have a "false conscious" or a "trade union consciousness". Ask a modern liberal today, and they just call them stupid, racist or on the wrong side of history.

The left has always had a pretty strange relationship with the people they purportedly are claiming to help from the very beginning. I remember reading once how a bunch of 19th century socialists that were from the circles that Marx and Engels was part of once attempted to start a milk store based on communal socialist principles. The store failed because a lot of the common working people that were supposed to be their customers would come in the store and then leave immediately because they felt the store was too up class for them. They felt immediately out of place in a store that was designed with upper middle class aesthetics in mind. This particular incident is by no means an isolated one, it has played out over and over again for socialism's entire history in many different forms.

I would say this applies not only to class but also race. Leftists claim to champion the black and Hispanic underclass while at the same time hating the values that pr-emanate those cultures such as 'hyper-masculinity' and stronger religious beliefs as well as general anti-intellectualism.

[amity]

(12-02-2015 03:32 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 03:29 AM)Lime Wrote:  

Some friends of mine really believe that our country and other countries in Europe can have 20% muslims. I often have discussions with them but it is impossible to discuss with them as they debate from emotion. Anyone here have these kind of friends and how do you deal with them? It's driving me nuts.

Don't.

People who debate from emotion required a personalised Muslim Rape Party turning up on their doorsteps to change their mind.

The only thing which 'might' help, at least a little bit, is to show them or send them a clip like the one below from a well established liberal (Sam Harris).
While it won't change their minds, I've had mild to moderate success with this and similar clips, with some liberal minded people (as opposed to outright SJWs who tend to be immune to facts and evidence).
This one pertains mostly to Charlie Hebdo but it's message applies to any of these Jihadi atrocities we're seeing these days.

[The Wire]

There's a scene in Dr. No which I love where Bond assumes Dr No is working for the East and Dr No says;

"Dr. No: East, West, just points of the compass, each as stupid as the other."


I've adopted that to my own saying...

"The Wire: Conservative, Liberal, just points of the political compass, each as stupid as the other."

[TheWastelander]

Because their religious instincts have been hacked and the traditional religion replaced with ideology that's been reinforced since birth. They create a social-shaming cycle to prevent wrongthink and constantly reinforce their own bullshit while proselytizing to everyone else.

I'd also say that their threat detection instinct is usually either hacked or nonexistent. For instance, it takes a complete defective to believe that white Americans are a bigger terrorist threat than ISIS.

Naturally, some people will be spared that nonsense or it just won't take because they're wired differently. Others will fall victim to it, only to later come out of the fog because the cognitive dissonance simply becomes too much to bear. I've talked with a couple of former leftists who told me they just couldn't take the dissonance anymore.

A lot of people, however, have an incredible capacity to delude themselves into believing their own bullshit no matter what the facts are. They become socially and emotionally invested to the point where nothing short of being mugged by reality will jar them from their delusion. By then it's usually too late.

Another observation I've made is that exposing them to facts that contradict what they believe cause them mental and emotional stress. They don't like it and they can't argue for shit, so they either try to derail the argument via fallacy, accusing you of being evil or just censoring you. This is the reason for the "safe space" nonsense.

[CynicalContrarian]

(12-03-2015 04:06 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

..."The Wire: Conservative, Liberal, just points of the political compass, each as stupid as the other."...

That's why the left / right paradigm is a farce.
At the extremes of either end, one only finds totalitarianism.

So when a jack-boot is stepping on your neck.
Does it matter so much that one may have a hammer & sickle while the other has an imperial eagle?

[porscheguy]

(12-03-2015 09:13 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 04:06 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

..."The Wire: Conservative, Liberal, just points of the political compass, each as stupid as the other."...

That's why the left / right paradigm is a farce.
At the extremes of either end, one only finds totalitarianism.

So when a jack-boot is stepping on your neck.
Does it matter so much that one may have a hammer & sickle while the other has an imperial eagle?

What you've described is usually referred to as "horseshoe theory." Basically, whether extreme left or extreme right, the end end result of either finds you in the same place: totalitarianism.

I mostly ignored this thread because being out of touch with reality isn't limited to leftists. Plenty on the extreme right are just as out of touch.

For every leftist that thinks we can uplift every toxic culture if we're "more sensitive to their needs", you've got some tinfoil hat wearing right winger who thinks that society will continue to function just fine if we eliminate the federal government and all taxes.

For every delusional leftist argument someone can come up with, I can come up with an equally delusional extreme right argument. And I'm not saying one side is better or worse than the other, but delusional thinking doesn't limit itself to one side of the political spectrum.

[Wutang]

I agree with horseshoe theory. I have to say at this point it is the extreme left that has way more social and cultural power in the West though. Extreme right-wing people are typically seen as loonies and aren't taken seriously by anyone while the opinions of teenage girls with neon colored hair on Tumblr ARE actually being seen as worthy of consideration. The extreme right simply doesn't have a voice today except on certain far off corners of the Internet while extreme feminists/race trolls/LGBT activists and such actually get a podium to disseminate their message.

[Phatom]

Its a cultural problem, many of these kids are sheltered and surrounded by these ideologies. I saw two guys fighting because one accused another of not being PC enough.Most people adopt the values of the culture they live in.

[spokepoker]

That sounds like something out of a South Park episode.

[CynicalContrarian]

^
Yep.
Would have been a great moment to ask which one is pussy crushin' more.

[El Chinito loco]

(12-04-2015 02:46 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

^
Yep.
Would have been a great moment to ask which one is pussy crushin' more.

After the fight they made up and went to a craft beer pub and blew each other out back.

[nomadbrah]

(12-03-2015 09:57 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

For every delusional leftist argument someone can come up with, I can come up with an equally delusional extreme right argument.

Oh yeah?

Lets hear the delusional right arguments.

[DjembaDjemba]

Agree with the posters who equate extreme left and extreme right. The extreme left is certainly a powerful force (possibly because liberalism has always been popular), but they're not calling for political deaths, culling the population, purgings, glorification of past racist policies, etc, that's some messed up stuff. They just bitch and moan, ridicule, and protest.

If the rule of law breaks down it doesn't matter who's holding the guns, communists or fascist, the end result looks eerelie similar.

[It_is_my_time]

(12-04-2015 12:00 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

Agree with the posters who equate extreme left and extreme right. The extreme left is certainly a powerful force (possibly because liberalism has always been popular), but they're not calling for political deaths, culling the population, purgings, glorification of past racist policies, etc, that's some messed up stuff. They just bitch and moan, ridicule, and protest.

If the rule of law breaks down it doesn't matter who's holding the guns, communists or fascist, the end result looks eerelie similar.

This is getting off what I think the intent of the topic is. Of course the extreme on both sides is awful. Whether it is Hitler on the right or Stalin/Mao on the left, both are equally awful.

I think the discussion is more about the current modern day main stream liberal living in the west. The people who subscribe to...

- "Free" healthcare. Nothing is free, even children understand this.
- Gun control. Placing all faith in a govt. that cannot get anything right to magically protect you at all times.
- Open borders, just let anyone and everyone invade and welcome them.
- SJW views on life (feminism, victimhood mentality, etc.).

None of this is based on reality. They are based on dreams and ideas found in text books. And this is a growing trend that will bankrupt the west.

[RexImperator]

I dunno, some "liberals" can be "alpha". Take a guy currently in the news: Rahm Emmanuel. He's a leftist scumbag but he also seems thoroughly Machiavellian.

[RedPillUK]

Horseshoe theory, interesting, but it gives the left too much credibility as both sides of the horse shoe are the same length.

In fact, pretending a political spectrum of right and left exists is also giving them too much credibility.

I don't like people who always try to sit on the fence by saying "oh well they're all bad", "all politicians are corrupt" all those moderate sayings.

They think they're being level headed, rational and smart, by always staying in the middle and equally distrusting everyone and everything, but really they're being ignorant and fearful of taking the 'wrong' side.

Just because you've chosen an extreme position, definitely does not make you wrong, just like choosing a moderate position does not make you right.

These sort of people seem to be really common. I think I was probably one of them before I started to educate myself and become more aware of the world.

[porscheguy]

(12-04-2015 05:14 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 09:57 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

For every delusional leftist argument someone can come up with, I can come up with an equally delusional extreme right argument.

Oh yeah?

Lets hear the delusional right arguments.

That would derail this. The point is that both sides of the spectrum can be equally delusional.

[nomadbrah]

(12-04-2015 01:40 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(12-04-2015 05:14 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(12-03-2015 09:57 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

For every delusional leftist argument someone can come up with, I can come up with an equally delusional extreme right argument.

Oh yeah?

Lets hear the delusional right arguments.

That would derail this. The point is that both sides of the spectrum can be equally delusional.

No, that is keeping perfectly within the thread topic.

What are the equally delusional beliefs of the right?

I am honestly interested.

[therealpoder]

(12-04-2015 12:14 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Whether it is Hitler on the right

Hitler is not on the right, he is on the left. Let's look at the economics portion of the Platform of the Nazi Party:

Quote:

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

© All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/ri...points.htm

Who other than the left advocates for unearned income to be abolished, profit sharing in large industries, and central authority in the state?

The biggest free market economists of the time, F.A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises for example, never held up Hitler as an inspiration and correctly denounced him as a socialist.

The idea that Hitler was on the right is a leftist myth.

[It_is_my_time]

I agree, Hitler was left economically. But many place him on the right due to his nationalist policies.

My point though is to ignore the extremes and look at the average Left v. average Right voter in the USA.

The average Right just wants a smaller govt., more freedoms, and more opportunity. This is based on the realities of life.

The average Left wants more govt. and wants to believe that this time it will not magically end up like every other socialist and/or communist 3rd world shithole.

The average Right is based in reality. The average Left today is based in feminism, SJW, and magical free things. It isn't based in reality.

[TheWastelander]

No one can agree on what constitutes left and right and there is no end all be all body to determine these things. To a progressive, a conservative is one step below a National Socialist. To a conservative, a National Socialist is on the left. To a lot of lolbertarians there is a four sided political spectrum instead of two.

It's stupid and meaningless to bicker about. Whether an ideology is destructive or not is what matters. The current fashionable brand of suicidal multicultural progressivism is destructive. A nation can survive its people tinkering with socialism as long as it's monocultural. If it doesn't work for them they can simply tweak it like the Scandinavian countries did by implementing market reforms back a couple decades ago.

A nation cannot survive its people being displaced or replaced, however. A nation is its people. Flood Sweden with Muslims tomorrow and it ceases to be Sweden, but instead becomes the Northern Islamic Caliphate of Whatever The Fuck.

[BortimusPrime]

(12-03-2015 09:57 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

For every delusional leftist argument someone can come up with, I can come up with an equally delusional extreme right argument. And I'm not saying one side is better or worse than the other, but delusional thinking doesn't limit itself to one side of the political spectrum.

We'll see who's delusional after the Race Wars cause civilization to collapse and you're busy drinking out of old toilets while I'm creating a new civilization to replace humanity by teaching grizzly bears Ayn Rand!