Forgot to add another detail - the Arabs, Persians, Pakistanis, and Afghans I hang out with have deep pride in their nation-states, not in their ethnicities. They have pride in the Islamic Golden Age, but not in Islam itself (even if they are devout, 5 prayers a day Muslims). Syrians, Saudis, and Iranians bitch about Saddam, Iraqis and Lebanese bitch about Assad. But its for politics, not for religion. They all hate Hezbollah and the Ayatollahs, the al-Saud family (especially the Saudis), and the infinite Sunni militias out there.
Another somewhat unrelated fact - they hate Israel for 1967, not for Judaism. In fact, they get along pretty well with Israelis (until politics comes up). I have a theory that Israeli Jews essentially became liberal Arabs once they made Aaliyah. Hard to understand until you remember that Zionism was a moderate-leftist cause in the West until Likud came into power.
I like liberal Middle-Easterners, regardless of nationality or religion, because they are very cultured in every sense of the word. Middle Eastern culture is honor-based, hospitable, and not as traditional as the media portrays it. Most of the post-2011 American debacles in the Middle East (or post-2003 for that matter) could have been avoided if the American leadership only understood that it is the urban Arabs who are easy to negotiate with and share Western ideals, not the rural folks who have lived the same way since Neolithic times, only with a different religion.
Anabasis - what you need to understand is that the Al-Saud family doesn't practice what they preach. They implement Wahhabi Islam strictly only because that is their only claim to legitimacy. They are Najd Arabs, Bedouins with very little historical connection to historically liberal Hejazi Arabs. The Princes and Kings have only implemented Wahhabism because they would be overthrown by a democratic movement if it wasn't for their brand of Islam. As a Hejazi friend told me 'The assholes treat the country like their personal brothel, but tell us to be pious.' Once a liberal prince comes into power (a Saudi Gorbachev), the radical Sunni movements everywhere else will collapse overnight.
Quote: (11-10-2015 05:12 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:
Quote: (11-10-2015 04:47 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:
Most regions within Lebanon, Coastal Syria, Israel, Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, and enclaves in urban Egypt, Iran, the Gulf Kingdoms, Iraqi Kurdistan, and Pakistan are relatively liberal. Libya and the rest of Syria were also relatively liberal before the Arab Spring. Baghdad was renowned as a liberal city before the 2003 invasion. Kabul was much more beautiful 40 years ago than it is today.
All of these regions have one thing in common - they are not controlled by Islamists. They are controlled by people who want to live good lives in their homeland, regardless of what some religious preacher says is right or wrong.
The Middle East's main problem is rapid cultural change. While the cities are liberal and international, the villages are stuck in the 19th Century. Villagers see people in the cities enjoying life instead of toiling in the sun and impregnating Fatima back home with her 8th child. This pisses them off because having fun is 'wrong'. They come up with some religious justification that their local Mullah supports. Kind of like how omegas in the West decide to go MGTOW because 'women are all evil'.
This is why democracy can't succeed in the Middle East. The people voting are rural hicks who hate their urban counterparts. Look at what these illiterates have done to Libya, Afghanistan, and Eastern Syria.
This is an incisive post. It's interesting that the dichotomy between urban and rural ideologies span over multiple societies.
The people that gave us whore houses (harems) and belly dancing while European women were covered down to the toes have regressed to a strange moral antiquity.
Essentially with the help of the USA and its anti communist paranoia, the most hardcore reactionary Islamist elements of these societies hijacked political life. And now we have this ridiculous situation.