[Meliorare93]

(05-03-2018 05:39 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

If you manage to not be repulsed by his low T, weak looking appearance, you will enjoy huge amount of information and knowledge that guy possesses.

Most occultists are like that... Or they are gay or they are fat. Haven't seen a lot of occultists who look like they took care of themselves perhaps EA Koetting, Thomas Karlsson or Angel Millar but as far as I know not many.

Still I think the saying "a healthy mind in a healthy body" is very important if one follows the occult path. One of my favorite spiritual blogs does honor that credo though:
https://phalx.com

Especially their code of honor resonates with me: https://phalx.com/new-start-here/code-of-honor/

[Meliorare93]

(05-03-2018 05:12 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  

I wanted to resurrect this thread with a few musings.

1) Magick's View On Cause & Effect

I only recently came across theories on magick, before then I had no idea what it was. One consensus view on magick is "affecting change in accordance with the will". Under this broad definition, goal-setting, writing down goals and positive affirmations are a form of magick. The "spell" is in writing down the goal or affirming it in your mind, which then goes into the subconscious. The intention then physically manifests after a passage of time. I find this can be rationally and psychologically explained: when you put a goal or suggestion in to the subconscious mind, you will simply "notice" avenues of opportunities to fulfilling that goal more easily, you are simply increasing the probability of the goal being fulfilled. Most people familiar with the "goal-setting" ethos as espoused by Brian Tracy, Jim Rohn, Tony Robbins, Napoleaon Hill et cetera can attest that it "works". Look up OTR's NIPS system in RooshVforum for a contemporary example.

Now follow me in this leap of logic. Something like goal-setting can work. Now most people will not consider this magick, though it does "fall" under magick based on the consensus definition of affecting change in accordance with the will. At the core it's simply a formula of [Cause]>[Process]>[Effect], with a working process in between. [Cause]: Writing down your goal or affirming your intention. [Process]: Subconscious is primed to seek solutions and is more attuned to rising opportunities. [Effect]: Physical manifestation of the desired goal. This makes sense so far right? HOWEVER... the leap of faith comes here. In my current understanding of magick, magick simply asserts that 1) we don't actually know what the true process is at work that manifests the result and 2) ANY causal relationship is enough to activate the cause&effect principle.

A quick interlude: "cause&effect" is one of the 7 hermetic principles discussed in the "Kybalion". The hermetic principles can be seen as the "natural law's" of the universe, sort of the "physics of reality" or "physics of consciousness".

Now what magick asserts is that you can take "any" ritual, spell, or whatever and DECIDE it means [CauseX] and still get an [Effect]. So for example you can draw a pentagram on the floor and offer a basket of fruit to the god Tlaloc and DECIDE this [Cause] means: "I am going to make $10.000 this quarter". Magick is basically about any spell/ritual having the same power and effect. The formula looks like this:

[Cause]Write down I make $10.000 by August 2018 [Process]>The psychological subconscious process of goal setting [Effect]> Physical manifestation of 10k
[Cause]Draw pentagram and offer a basket of fruit [Process]>?????? (we don't actually know) [Effect]> Physical manifestion of 10k

Now whether magick is true or not, this is essentially what it asserts. That, due to the omnipresence of the principle of cause&effect in this universe, you can actually apply a ritual or spell INSTEAD of something that seems "realistically" more effective, and get the same or even a better result.

May I suggest Jason Miller's latest work The Elements of Spellcrafting? It touches a bit on what you are pondering about here. (or just check out some of his recent podcast appearances Occulture, Glitch Bottle, The Hermit's lamp etc)

[BelyyTigr]

(07-10-2015 08:23 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Is anybody into this? As a fundamentally rational person, I've always dismissed without attempting to understand the whole idea of magick and the esoteric.

I'm very much interested in magick, esoterica and the occult. Firstly because I'm writing a novel on the topic. But more importantly, because I believe they can actually shed valuable light on certain matters.

I'm also very scientifically minded, so I won't blindly follow some nonsense thats cobbled together in an attempt to sensationalise the World or deceive people. My view is that we've lost much great knowledge over the past millenium or two, even if we have made many new discoveries. I think that Western science is too dismissive of things it can't readily explain or understand. The big problem is that unscrupulous parties tend to tag onto esoterica etc and live on people's sense of yearning for "magick" and wonderment. Fortunately, I think I've spent some time constructively to discover what are sometimes wonderful parallels to modern Western science, that are infact superior to it in some areas.

One area I'm interested in is Chinese traditional martial arts - ie the ones that talk about "chi" etc. The first year didn't really make a lot of sense to me. But slowly the penny began to drop and I could see something that appeared to be a little like "magick" was actually an incredible scientific discipline in its own right.

I also explored astrology and its relationship with financial markets. Initially I thought astrology was a load of tripe that was adored by just women and homosexuals like Russel Grant. The problem was that the mainstream understanding of astrology is something very different to the astrology employed by famous people like JP Morgan and others. To me, astrology is a visualised system of cycle analysis with some astrophysics thrown in - electromagnetic storms affecting human moods etc. It seemed preposterous, but again, mainstream analysts like RBS Bank and regional Federal Reserve boards are amongst many that realise there IS something to analyse, even though it is a fiendishly complex topic. Now its starting to make more sense to me.

I've also looked at magick. Again, there is a difference between the public's understanding of magick (witches and broomsticks) and what magick really is. To me, magick seems to encompass some psychology, traditional medicine and a few other things. I remember doing a money spell basically as a joke one day a long time ago. It involved putting coins in key places around your home. Just after doing so, I had a gigantic urge to remove clutter in my home. Back then it was a problem of mine, but nowadays I have a zero tolerance of it. Pretty soon I was more decisive and productive in my business. Coincidence? Well you may say so. But I saw a TV show which showed that handling money or being around it all the time actually changed people's moods vs people who didn't handle it (according to a scientific study).
Ultimately, magick can be considered a practice to improve mental and physical balance and vitality. Ofcourse, how effective it is, may well depend upon what sort of magick you study and apply.

To me, understanding esoterica is about getting to a system that potentially makes sense scientifically. You need reasoning, effort, belief and intention. Its no coincidence that powerful senior masonic and Jewish (eg Qaballalist) groups and the like value esoteric study when their more junior members often ridicule esoterica. Sometimes, these are very influential groups in different endeavours around the World. Ofcourse their special skills would be classed as "occult" ie hidden, because why would someone just give up such valuable knowledge to anyone and everyone?

[sterling_archer]

You have pretty much same conclusions as I do, BelyyTigr. I might just add something short about astrology. Perhaps this is the most misunderstood knowledge currently. 99% of what one can see out there regarding it is bullshit. Horoscopes and those weirdos that ask on live television for money so they can predict your future. No wonder this stuff attracts chicks because it is very simple and based on cold reading.

One should just type in "jyotishyam" in google to see how real, thousands of years old, unfiltered astrology looks like. In the same manner it is very comparable to immense system called Kabbalah. These two require whole life to understand and master, so it is no wonder how most people don't get it or disregard it.

[H1N1]

(05-03-2018 05:12 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  

I wanted to resurrect this thread with a few musings.

I really wish you wouldn't .

That I created this thread still haunts me, and I can only plead temporary insanity as my defence.

[sterling_archer]

(05-03-2018 12:24 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I really wish you wouldn't .

That I created this thread still haunts me, and I can only plead temporary insanity as my defence.

Haha, man, don't be so negative. Nothing shameful in having interest in occult.

[Meliorare93]

(05-03-2018 12:43 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 12:24 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I really wish you wouldn't .

That I created this thread still haunts me, and I can only plead temporary insanity as my defence.

Haha, man, don't be so negative. Nothing shameful in having interest in occult.

But it's best to keep silent about it imho... on the internet it is ok behind an anonymous alter ego but in real life I hardly speak about these matters. It's called OCCULT for something

[Hypno]

Some of you posting on this thread have read very deeply on some obscure topics.

I wonder if any of you have an opinion on the book Controvery of Zion by Douglas Reed?

[debeguiled]

(05-03-2018 05:39 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Lets ask one of the most despised men, Aleister Crowley, what he thinks magick is...

"Science and Art that provokes Change in conformity with the Will."

"All intentional acts are acts of magic."

"Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe."

"Magick is the Science of understanding one’s self and one’s own situation. It is the art of applying this knowledge in action."

Now, everyone who considers himself an occultist worth his salt will immediately get that magick is pretty much commonly used in our life. Literally, some people do it daily. Does it involve summoning of some entities? It might, but it doesn't have to.
If someone is to watch youtube videos on this matter, I recommend Styxhexenhammer666. If you manage to not be repulsed by his low T, weak looking appearance, you will enjoy huge amount of information and knowledge that guy possesses.

Expanding the definition of something to include everything is pretty much a mindfuck.

It is kind of like a feminist asking if you think there should be fair hiring practices, and if you say yes, saying to you:

"Then you're a feminist.

Or like a little kid commanding another kid to breathe, making the other kid hold his breath for as long as he can, finally breathing in, and having the other kid say:

"See, you do what I say."

If this is the best the great beast can do, he is either dissembling or as lame as it gets.

[sterling_archer]

(05-03-2018 02:00 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

If this is the best the great beast can do, he is either dissembling or as lame as it gets

Maybe he is lame, or nothing special. Maybe magick is really something we frequently use and what is endorsed time and time again, but under different names. Who knows. One should acknowledge first who is right and who is wrong. Separate wheat from the chaff and deduce who is a worthy authority on the matter.

[debeguiled]

(05-03-2018 02:56 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 02:00 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

If this is the best the great beast can do, he is either dissembling or as lame as it gets

Maybe he is lame, or nothing special. Maybe magick is really something we frequently use and what is endorsed time and time again, but under different names. Who knows. One should acknowledge first who is right and who is wrong. Separate wheat from the chaff and deduce who is a worthy authority on the matter.

I don't think he is lame. I think he is lying.

I think he is trying to make magick seem natural to outsiders to remove their misgivings or fears and make them more likely to get on board or at least experiment.

Here's a simile. Saying magick is normal is like saying an Ouija board is a kid's toy.

A lot of spiritual people have had bad experiences with Ouija boards.
If you want someone to have a bad experience with an Ouija board, you don't say that, you say something like: "What's the big deal. It's just a child's game."

I think he is trying to entice people over to his world view by misrepresenting it as more harmless than it is.

[dtpilgrim]

Glad to spark some life in this topic. Let me preface though that I am not at all espousing anything magickal or occultic at all, I am merely running curiosity + thought experimenting based on my subjective understanding of this subculture/belief system.

That said, I would like to add to what I find to be the most fascinating part of magick so far; the first principle of the Kybalion being the principle of MENTALISM or "All Is Mind".

Now let me preface by saying Mentalism is by no means proven. Entire western philosophical debate has in a sense been about this topic. Think in a sense Aristotelian and Thomistic philosophy versus Nominalism and Descartes. It's the question whether anything can truly exist outside of your own mind? Are the denotable categories of the outside world truly separate and intrinsically denotable entities or is ALL just ONE (pantheism; I find occultism to have a lot of smitterings of pantheism). Anyway let's get on with the theory of Mentalism.

The hermetic principle of Mentalism claims that All Is Mind. Okay so what is "all", all is the totality of your personal subjective experience, "is" means equates and "mind" means your consciousness (i.e. your "awareness"; your autonomous experiential reality). It's really a rather circular argument. "All" being all that you consciously experience "is" (a product of) your conscious mind, i.e. your conscious mind - in other words, since all you experience is through your consciousness motor, EVERYTHING is an experience of consciousness. Hence the principle of mentalism is all about the nature of consciousness (more immediately YOUR consciousness).

Addendum: mentalism is not the same as solipsism. Implicit to the kybalion and a lot of western occultism is a belief in pantheism or in more woo-woo psychedelic terms an "over-consciousness" or "supra-consciousness";"meta-consciousness". So that means while YOU create your own consciousness experience, YOU are still just a PART of the ALL(=supra-consciousness).

Okay so again we don't know if mentalism is true or not. It rests in a sense on implicit assumptions of cosmological pantheism. That said the thought-experiment possible with mentalism is fascinating.

If we assume that 1) all that we experience is what we experience and 2) we are the author of our own experience, the implication of this assumption is pervasive. It's hard not the argue that everything you "experience" isn't 100% a product of your consciousness, wherher that consciousness stems from a physical biological interplay of electrical action potentials or something metaphysical. Everything you consciously experience necessarily is experienced through consciousness.

The magickal aspect comes in to play through the fact that we can create our own experiences i.e. steer our own consciousness. It's really simply proven: we are NOT determinist action-reaction thought into behavior automoton robots... we have free will (assumption). Prove it RIGHT NOW: right this instance CHOOSE to imagine something positive, now choose to picture something sexual, now voluntarily decide to repeat a single word I haven't decided for you 20x in your mind's ear. It's manifestly proven that you have the free will to put whatever you want into your consciencness, you just proved it.

Now extrapolate this power. On any given day the "average" guy has X amount of distinctly distinguishable conscious thoughts per day. Let's say it's 10.000. Theoretically it's perfectly possible to put every single one of those "thought blocks" into an excel sheet and classify every single one of them. What % is going to be negative (i.e. focus on what is "lacking" as opposed to what is present)? For most normal people it's going to be a majority, like 70+%. Literally 7000/10000.

Now for most people, negative thinking is simply "realism". But how intellectually humble is it to assume that the thought blocks that are flooding your consciousness on a daily basis are necessarily the most absolutely true of all possible thoughts you could possibly have. Consider simply that thought is literally almost limitless; it's literally what consciousness is; we can't consciously imagine anything that falls outside of consciousness; hence all that falls within consciousness is all that could possibly be imagined; hence limitless. In other words, negativity is simply a brand of thinking, not the end all be all of conscious experience. (It's just a very popular brand).

[debeguiled]

So now positive thinking is magick.

You are blowing my mind.

[sterling_archer]

Not sitting on the ass all day is magick!

[BelyyTigr]

(05-03-2018 12:15 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

You have pretty much same conclusions as I do, BelyyTigr. I might just add something short about astrology. Perhaps this is the most misunderstood knowledge currently. 99% of what one can see out there regarding it is bullshit. Horoscopes and those weirdos that ask on live television for money so they can predict your future. No wonder this stuff attracts chicks because it is very simple and based on cold reading.

One should just type in "jyotishyam" in google to see how real, thousands of years old, unfiltered astrology looks like. In the same manner it is very comparable to immense system called Kabbalah. These two require whole life to understand and master, so it is no wonder how most people don't get it or disregard it.

Interesting. Have you studied any esoterica in depth and tried to apply them in some way?
I'd like to understand a bit more about Kabbalah Numerology. I see how numbers seem to appear in different ways when I'm doing accounts, and I've seen it in financial trading cycles (esp when linked with astrocycles). Unfortunately, there seems to be a big gulf between readily accesible Numerology and the stuff that really works well. The TV show touch vastly exagerates it all I think, but even so I think it sort of touches on what practical Numerology might be in some circumstances. Ultimately, I think most of us are blind to the cycles and patterns that actually exist and maybe govern us in some ways.

[sterling_archer]

I have been researching occult for years. Different systems, movements, etc.; I read a lot and talked with real deal sorcerers and yogis. But I never had much practice in some particular system for various reasons. Only thing I did for some time was Nagualism.

Regarding Kabbalah I have just basic understanding and I dare to say that whoever says he/she knows much about it but hasn't spend several decades learning and practicing it is a liar. You mentioned Kabbalistic numerology. I am not very familiar with that but I know that each letter and number in Kabbalah has corresponding color, tone, element and human organ.
If you want to read a short introduction to Kabbalistic numerology but never the less enjoy a large amount of knowledge written by a true sorcerer, read "The Key to the True Kabbalah" by Franz Bardon. Bardon was very important figure in early 20th century Europe, he even was put in a concentration camp because he didn't want to do magick for Hitler.

[Baphomet]

Number of people who claim to have psychic/magic powers - Millions.

Amount of cash claimed from dozens of "Prove It" challenges by those same psychics/sorcerers/shamen/yogies/witches/ et al... - $0.00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pr...paranormal

Yesterday I drove by a 200ft long storefront, that was advertising "Spells and Curses Removed", "Hex bags", "Key of Solomon", among other things. People will believe anything if it's "quick and easy." Like all cults, the "Occult" promises shortcuts to power, wealth, health, love, etc. The Occult only DELIVERS to the people who can suck in the hapless seekers of the "easy way."

[sterling_archer]

I like the fact that your nickname differs so strongly from your opinion about this stuff.

[Mage]

This discussion will never be productive because there will always be at least five different types of people who understand magic / magick and occult in their own way. Most of these people are hardwired to never be able to understand the other perspective because of the psychological imprints in their minds that formed when they were still receptive to forming new imprints in puberty. Most people will not change their opinions because their mind is to rigid and "calcified" after that age.

Type 1 - Christian conspiracy theory lovers who see Satan everywhere and who see patterns everywhere and attribute these patterns to the "occult" and "Illuminati" on for whom everything that is not like the pastor in their Church said - all that to them is from the Evil one. These people have a good pattern recognizing mind that formed as a tool to detect predators, but is working in overdrive in modern times. They have strong faith imprints.

Type 2 - People with only instinctive and rational brain imprints but without the faith imprint. Atheists - they will always talk about peer reviews and official journals and proofs and will deny every possibility of magick or God existing. They will demand proofs of proofs and second and third proofs of proofs and even if they would see a miracle with their own eyes they would rationalize that away with an excuse like a delusion, mass delusion or at best maybe aliens.

Type 3 - The gullible who research these topics not but want to believe everything and go to different fraudsters and psychos to get quick solutions for their problems. These people have the Instinct imprints and maybe faith imprints, but have very weak rational imprints. They are mainly driven by instincts and seek quick solutions to instinct based problems, like love, money, health and and happiness. They want solutuons but they never want to learn or grow or educate themselves and always seek outside help and trust blindly in "experts" be it charlatans, scientists, mass media or whatever.

Type 4 - The fraudsters who pray on the type 3. This is not an actual type because these people can be from type 2 or type 5 themselves. Both magick deniers and magick practitioners sometimes need to lie to the gullible, but viscous people to survive near them or to get their money.

Type 5 - People who can acquire the higher imprints above faith. These people can understand what magick is really all about to various degrees.

If you are curios what are these imprints I am speaking about read the book called "Prometheus Rising". It can easily be found in pdf format on net.

[debeguiled]

I think there is a lot of doubletalk in this thread.

You can have a theory about the application of human will or the endlessness of the human mind without any reference to magick or occult necessary.

We are just talking about forcing people to do things your way, through coercion or manipulation.

It is not mystical.

I think a lot of people give themselves permission to forget about their values and start manipulating people by giving it a fancy name like the occult.

I knew a woman who fancied herself a witch and had all these books on witchiness, and there was nothing supernatural about any of it, it was just about giving herself permission to use her sexuality to get what she wanted.

Yeah, she had rituals and spells and shit, but at the same time, she was leading guys on and being overtly sexual around them, enticing them, and there was no proof whatsoever that it was the spells that brought the results, and a lot of proof that lying and manipulating and threatening with no conscience involved was instrumental in getting what she wanted.

I am not, by the way, saying that there is no such thing as magick or the supernatural, instead trying to find some sort of clear demarcation between something undeniably supernatural, and just giving new names to old behavior so people don't feel guilty when the engage in it.

Yeah, the imagination is powerful, and the mind can manifest things, but the flipside of this is that you can delude yourself with it as well, and convince yourself that all that shit you underhandedly conned out of people came from your new oneness with the universe or a kick in the head from the horned god or whatever.

I don't think it is productive for anyone to start conflating the supernatural with all sorts of things like wanting something, visualizing it, then doing what it takes to get it.

If you asked the man on the street, let's not bother with the woman, he would say that for something to be magick, it has to be magic, that is inexplicable by science or basic human understanding.

You don't want the end up like that bitch with all new terminology walking around saying, "I needed some money so I *materialized it,*" only when you ask her brother about it he says, yeah, she just sent in her tax returns to get the refund check.

In fact, you could surmise that if there is a devil, and he hates God and humanity, there is nothing he would like better than to have a bunch of people going down esoteric rabbit holes full of symbols and loose associations that degrade their thinking and ultimately lead nowhere good, and by the time the figure it out, they have wasted years and their brains.

For any of this stuff to have any real meaning, there has to be someone who has experienced something truly supernatural, not just a synchronicity or coincidence, but something un-fucking-explainable by science or common sense, even to a scientist or a con man or a magician who knows how to look for tricks.

It has to be something along the lines of, I wanted to go to bed, and didn't want to disturb the cat, so I levitated him for eight hours.

Something demonstrably magickal that has been experienced.

At least that is what I think should be happening in this thread instead of conflation station.

It is the only way to separate yourself from the self deluded *mystical* *create their own reality* New Age not so ascended masters.

Hence the picture of the fat kid above sitting on his keister giving you the magus look.

[debeguiled]

Well that certainly closed things down.

[Super_Fire]

There's a reason we used to burn witches; because this sort of thing attracts feminists, omegas, loonies, and vengeful losers who attempt to use sexual liberation as a form of thought control.

[Geomann180]

(05-03-2018 12:24 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(05-03-2018 05:12 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  

I wanted to resurrect this thread with a few musings.

I really wish you wouldn't .

That I created this thread still haunts me, and I can only plead temporary insanity as my defence.

So you wish...to keep this thread a secret?

Freemason membership confirmed.

G

[Neo]

(05-04-2018 01:38 PM)Mage Wrote:  

If you are curios what are these imprints I am speaking about read the book called "Prometheus Rising". It can easily be found in pdf format on net.

I read this book a long time ago. I remember parts of it and it was interesting. He gives exercises to do for example:

1) Visualize finding a quarter on the street and see how long it takes you to find it.

2) Believe that the reason you found it was because of 'manifestation' (law of attraction) and go looking for another quarter.

3) Believe the reason you found it was attention (i.e. there are tons of quarters but you weren't focusing on finding them before) and go look for another quarter.

4) Compare the time it takes for each hypothesis.

5) Go to a party or bar and imagine you are the funniest, most attractive person there. Really believe it and see how people respond.

6) Go to a party or bar and imagine you are the most awkward, shy, and ugliest person there. Really believe it and see how people respond.

7) Sit in a room and ask yourself questions until you get to the cause of why you are there. Like..

"I'm sitting in this room meditating...Why?"
"I'm reading Prometheus Rising and it's an exercise."
"How did I end up learning about the book?"
"I learned about it on RVF."
"How did I find out about RVF?"
"I was researching how to game Latinas."
"Why did you want to hook up with Latinas?"
"I dated a Brazilian when I was younger and they were very feminine and love to please men."
"Why do you want a feminine woman?
"It's in my nature?"
"Why did nature give you this imperative?"
etc. etc.

Then you repeat the next day or so and try to come up with different questions.

It would take a long time to go through the book and do all the exercises, but I did some of them.

You learn a lot about how your beliefs affect the reality around you.

I'm going to find a copy and reread it.

[sterling_archer]

So is The Secret (a chick flick really) a bastardized version of Prometheus Rising?

Edit:
Downloaded the book, read the wikipedia description and skimmed through the pages. I have initial very positive expectations of this book. From what I see, author has pretty good understanding of malleability of reality, which is a foundation on which further understanding of these themes must be built. I will read the book as soon as possible, but I am not sure if I will do the exercises.