[dark_g]

(04-11-2015 01:21 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

Everyone who's saying this make sure you remember that when they come to get you for that false rape accusation or the outrageous alimony payment you can't make because you got fired for something you said on Twitter.

It's like watching frogs be boiled alive.

I'm older, have a 13 & 17 year old, on the verge of retiring and had a vasectomy back in 2003. I'm not scuurd.

[AntiTrace]

(04-11-2015 01:21 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 01:09 PM)dark_g Wrote:  

(04-10-2015 08:06 PM)Medic42 Wrote:  

"Everybody knows if the police have to come get you, they are bringing an ass kicking with them." -Chris Rock

I have a real problem with the police shooting unarmed guys for simply running however, I have absolutely no problem with them dropping a beating on runners.

I like this also.

If you surrender and come peacefully, I just throw the cuffs on you.

If you make me run after you, I'm kicking your ass if I catch you.

Sounds fair to me.

Everyone who's saying this make sure you remember that when they come to get you for that false rape accusation or the outrageous alimony payment you can't make because you got fired for something you said on Twitter.

It's like watching frogs be boiled alive.

cops showing up at your door to serve you with a false rape accusation or outrageous alimony payments is a far cry from you actively endangering a cops life on a pursuit.

Don't go all "the sky is falling" on us and imply that those that don't agree with your views are ignorant.

[TheWastelander]

(04-11-2015 12:58 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

You kill a man with your bare hands because he stole a horse? And we're supposed to trust you with "upholding the law"?

Horse thievery used to be punished by branding, maiming, or hanging. It is a serious offense, especially out in the desert.

Be that as it may, the officers overreacted.

This part made me laugh, though:

Quote:

Three deputies were injured during the search. Two suffered dehydration and a third was injured when kicked by the horse. All three were taken to a hospital for treatment.

Even the horse doesn't want anything to do with the police.

[Enigma]

(04-11-2015 05:15 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

cops showing up at your door to serve you with a false rape accusation or outrageous alimony payments is a far cry from you actively endangering a cops life on a pursuit.

Don't go all "the sky is falling" on us and imply that those that don't agree with your views are ignorant.

That's not the point though, is it?

The argument is that you should always submit to the cops willingly and without question, otherwise they can beat the shit out of you.

Yet there are numerous threads here on a regular basis about how invasive and unfair the laws are becoming. Constant stories of innocent men having to fight for their freedom over a false rape or domestic abuse accusation. Not to mention the cases of cops harassing people for minor infractions, planting evidence, etc.

Then the next thread some guys are all for the cops doing whatever they want to "criminals". Because they're all serial killers and child rapists, right? And he could've had a gun! My god, that poor officer and his stressful, stressful job.

Like I said, just remember when you're getting fucked over for some unfair law or allegation that you were all for the cops beating and shooting "criminals" at their discretion.

[Enigma]

(04-11-2015 05:40 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 12:58 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

You kill a man with your bare hands because he stole a horse? And we're supposed to trust you with "upholding the law"?

Horse thievery used to be punished by branding, maiming, or hanging. It is a serious offense, especially out in the desert.

Yeah, it's called a "non-violent felony", and in civilized society that is not punished with a gang beating on a defenseless man.

Note, we're not talking about the person the horse was stolen from (understandably ) wanting to beat his ass. We're talking about law enforcement.

If you want to go back to the Hammurabi Code, I'm sure there are countries out there that can accommodate you.

[cibo]

(04-11-2015 05:40 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 12:58 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

You kill a man with your bare hands because he stole a horse? And we're supposed to trust you with "upholding the law"?

Horse thievery used to be punished by branding, maiming, or hanging. It is a serious offense, especially out in the desert.

Be that as it may, the officers overreacted.

This part made me laugh, though:

Quote:

Three deputies were injured during the search. Two suffered dehydration and a third was injured when kicked by the horse. All three were taken to a hospital for treatment.

Even the horse doesn't want anything to do with the police.

I wonder if they beat the shit out of the horse later too.

[TheWastelander]

(04-11-2015 09:15 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 05:40 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 12:58 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

You kill a man with your bare hands because he stole a horse? And we're supposed to trust you with "upholding the law"?

Horse thievery used to be punished by branding, maiming, or hanging. It is a serious offense, especially out in the desert.

Yeah, it's called a "non-violent felony", and in civilized society that is not punished with a gang beating on a defenseless man.

Note, we're not talking about the person the horse was stolen from (understandably ) wanting to beat his ass. We're talking about law enforcement.

If you want to go back to the Hammurabi Code, I'm sure there are countries out there that can accommodate you.

Cute remark, but horse thieves were hanged for their crimes well into the 1900s.

I don't get why modern society coddles thieves like this and I don't particularly care about the welfare of the piece of trash getting beaten in the video.

The only problem I have with this is that it's cops breaking rules and regulations doing this. It's a shame the horse's owner didn't shoot the thief down.

[Enigma]

(04-11-2015 10:20 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Cute remark, but horse thieves were hanged for their crimes well into the 1900s.

I don't get why modern society coddles thieves like this and I don't particularly care about the welfare of the piece of trash getting beaten in the video.

The only problem I have with this is that it's cops breaking rules and regulations doing this. It's a shame the horse's owner didn't shoot the thief down.

Code of Hammurabi, Law #22: "If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death"

[Kabal]

(04-11-2015 01:40 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Quote:

In the two minutes after the man was stunned with a Taser, it appeared deputies kicked him 17 times, punched him 37 times and struck him with batons four times. Thirteen blows appeared to be to the head. The horse stood idly nearby.

Are they somehow also subtly blaming the horse for not stopping this?

These horses ain't loyal.

[AntiTrace]

(04-11-2015 09:01 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 05:15 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

cops showing up at your door to serve you with a false rape accusation or outrageous alimony payments is a far cry from you actively endangering a cops life on a pursuit.

Don't go all "the sky is falling" on us and imply that those that don't agree with your views are ignorant.

That's not the point though, is it?

The argument is that you should always submit to the cops willingly and without question, otherwise they can beat the shit out of you.

Yet there are numerous threads here on a regular basis about how invasive and unfair the laws are becoming. Constant stories of innocent men having to fight for their freedom over a false rape or domestic abuse accusation. Not to mention the cases of cops harassing people for minor infractions, planting evidence, etc.

Then the next thread some guys are all for the cops doing whatever they want to "criminals". Because they're all serial killers and child rapists, right? And he could've had a gun! My god, that poor officer and his stressful, stressful job.

Like I said, just remember when you're getting fucked over for some unfair law or allegation that you were all for the cops beating and shooting "criminals" at their discretion.

When a cop comes to arrest you, you are getting arrested. Simple. Going peacefully and then defending yourself in court is your best bet. Fighting is going to get your ass kicked and add charges to rap sheet.

It's about choosing your fights and respecting a fellow human being. A cop is just a regular dude doing his job. The orders to arrest likely came from elsewhere.

Unfair laws are fought in court, not on the streets.

[Enigma]

(04-12-2015 06:01 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

When a cop comes to arrest you, you are getting arrested. Simple. Going peacefully and then defending yourself in court is your best bet. Fighting is going to get your ass kicked and add charges to rap sheet.

It's about choosing your fights and respecting a fellow human being. A cop is just a regular dude doing his job. The orders to arrest likely came from elsewhere.

Unfair laws are fought in court, not on the streets.

1. Where did I suggest anyone fight cops? Where did anyone say anything about fighting period?

The question is whether cops should beat the shit out of a guy who fled after he's already been caught and subdued. Obviously they're going to hit a guy who's fighting them.

2. Is beating a defenseless man with a baton "respecting a fellow human being"? Is harassing and intimidating people over petty traffic violations and the like showing respect?

It is not just hardened criminals who have a fear of or animosity towards police. Even on this board you are seeing a shift as these stories continue to come out day after day where police intimidate, escalate, and use excessive force repeatedly.

3. Arresting and, when necessary, chasing people is the police's job. If you don't want to chase people or potentially be in danger, don't be a police officer.

Should we all just save ourselves from burning buildings so we don't put firefighters through any stress? And I'll just clean my own house from now on out of respect for my maid.

The reality is, a lot of these cops get off on this shit, just like other "regular dudes" get off on roller coasters, sky diving, dirt biking, white water rafting, etc. etc. And even if they don't, it's their job.

4. Tell the thousands of men in jail for murders, rapes, etc. that they didn't commit to fight "unfair laws in court".

How about the police who raid the wrong house and beat or kill innocent people? How about the police who plant evidence on people?

See, you describe police as "human beings", yet want to at the same time elevate them to a status where they are above both other human beings and the law. The fact that they are human beings is exactly the reason that they shouldn't be able to dole out beatdowns to anyone that inconveniences them.

Then you close your post with saying that laws should be fought in court, not the streets, while arguing that cops should be able to deliver street justice as they see fit.

[RIslander]

1:10

Five cops got a motionless perp on the ground and another cop kicks the shit out of the guy like hes kicking a field goal.

Fat ass out of shape cops are pissed off they had a to chase a dude through the desert. Aren't cops supposed to do this type of thing? Becoming a cop when you don't want to be physically active is like becoming a doctor when you're afraid of blood.

[Sherman]

All of these police brutality cases seem to be, without exception, cases where the suspect resists arrest. So, even if you are a bad ass criminal with a record, if you don't resist arrest, the police aren't going to hurt you. In fact, they will like you for cooperating.

I can see their position. When someone resists arrest, it dramatically increases their chance of being injured, creates a risk for the public, uses up valuable time and resources increasing costs, and makes them look bad if he escapes.

If someone knows that he is going to jail and that the police will treat him with kids gloves, then there is no downside to trying to escape. The worst that can happen is he goes to jail anyway and the best is that he escapes.

In Mexico, it is common to see policia pickup trucks driving around with suspects in the back of the open truck, frequently without handcuffs. I once asked why they don't just jump out of the truck and run away. The answer was because they know they will be shot. If there is a clear rule that you will be shot if you try to escape, then nobody will try to escape. Problem solved.

[AntiTrace]

(04-12-2015 08:31 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

1. Where did I suggest anyone fight cops? Where did anyone say anything about fighting period?


The question is whether cops should beat the shit out of a guy who fled after he's already been caught and subdued. Obviously they're going to hit a guy who's fighting them.

And where did I advocate beating a subdued individual? In a previous post I said these cops were out of line.

(04-12-2015 08:31 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

2. Is beating a defenseless man with a baton "respecting a fellow human being"? Is harassing and intimidating people over petty traffic violations and the like showing respect?

It is not just hardened criminals who have a fear of or animosity towards police. Even on this board you are seeing a shift as these stories continue to come out day after day where police intimidate, escalate, and use excessive force repeatedly.

You are taking the extreme scenarios and applying them to the general populace. I know many cops. They don't beat defenseless people over the hard with batons. They don't harass people over petty traffic violations. They are all very cool dudes that don't like to fuck with people. You broke a taffic law, they write a ticket. Easy peasy. You act like a cocksucker to them, they act like a cocksucker back. If you are polite, they are polite back. Again, that's human nature. Sure you get the kid that got picked on way to much in high school and has an authority complex, but again those are rare.

Excessive use of force is not on the rise. Well, that actually is hard to say because the term "excessive" is very subjective. I'll refer to death by cop statistics, that seems like a good benchmark. Death by cops for whites (somewhere around 1 per million) has remained steady for several decades, while death-by-cop for blacks has decreased from 4 per million to around 2 per million in that time frame.

Don't fall victim to the medias trap. The sky is not falling. Everything is gonna be okay.

(04-12-2015 08:31 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

3. Arresting and, when necessary, chasing people is the police's job. If you don't want to chase people or potentially be in danger, don't be a police officer.

Should we all just save ourselves from burning buildings so we don't put firefighters through any stress? And I'll just clean my own house from now on out of respect for my maid.

The reality is, a lot of these cops get off on this shit, just like other "regular dudes" get off on roller coasters, sky diving, dirt biking, white water rafting, etc. etc. And even if they don't, it's their job.

Yes a lot of people get off on this shit, its actually a physiological response to the body producing adrenaline in high stress situations. It the same reason you will hear many soldiers talk of missing warfare, it's a high you can not reproduce in the civilian world.

(04-12-2015 08:31 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

4. Tell the thousands of men in jail for murders, rapes, etc. that they didn't commit to fight "unfair laws in court".

How about the police who raid the wrong house and beat or kill innocent people? How about the police who plant evidence on people?

People that fall victim to unfair laws have nothing to do with the police that arrested them. They have a grip with the court system.

Have you ever raided a house? Shit goes wrong sometimes. Intel is bad sometimes. People somtimes get hurt in the time from breach to all clear. I could go further into this, but I have a feeling we both come from completely different walks of life and wont agree on that point ever.

Planting evidence? You're watching too much tv. I'm not saying it doesnt happen, but again the average citizen has more of a risk of being struck by lightning. And when it comes to the hardened criminals? Well, sometimes you can't help but to get a bit dirty when your working in the sewers.

(04-12-2015 08:31 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

See, you describe police as "human beings", yet want to at the same time elevate them to a status where they are above both other human beings and the law. The fact that they are human beings is exactly the reason that they shouldn't be able to dole out beatdowns to anyone that inconveniences them.

Then you close your post with saying that laws should be fought in court, not the streets, while arguing that cops should be able to deliver street justice as they see fit.

A hammer will always see a nail.

I never implied once that police should be allowed to dole out beatdowns to any random person, nor did I say that police are above the law, and I never said that cops should be able to deliver street justice as they see fit.

I'm not a biased person bro. I like to see a situation from both sides. You on the other hand, are the hammer.

Or shit, maybe im the hammer. Maybe we just both from completely different backgrounds and your talking from your experience, while I'm talking from mine.

[Enigma]

@AntiTrace:

(04-11-2015 05:15 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 01:21 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 01:09 PM)dark_g Wrote:  

(04-10-2015 08:06 PM)Medic42 Wrote:  

"Everybody knows if the police have to come get you, they are bringing an ass kicking with them." -Chris Rock

I have a real problem with the police shooting unarmed guys for simply running however, I have absolutely no problem with them dropping a beating on runners.

I like this also.

If you surrender and come peacefully, I just throw the cuffs on you.

If you make me run after you, I'm kicking your ass if I catch you.

Sounds fair to me.

Everyone who's saying this make sure you remember that when they come to get you for that false rape accusation or the outrageous alimony payment you can't make because you got fired for something you said on Twitter.

It's like watching frogs be boiled alive.

cops showing up at your door to serve you with a false rape accusation or outrageous alimony payments is a far cry from you actively endangering a cops life on a pursuit.

Don't go all "the sky is falling" on us and imply that those that don't agree with your views are ignorant.

Do you not think that, given the context, it appears that you're agreeing with them (that cops should beat people) and disagreeing with me (that cops shouldn't beat people)? Notice words like "us" and "those that don't agree with your views", which gives the impression that you're in alliance with their opinion.

If you're responding in disagreement every time I say "cops shouldn't beat the shit out of people for running", it's only logical to assume that you think they should.

Also:

(04-11-2015 05:30 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

That being said, cops went overboard here. A few punches or kicks would have been appropriate, you gotta guarantee submission ya know. Anything past that is inappropriate. The cops don't deserve to lose their jobs, but they do deserve some type of punishment.

What would happen if a group of us were to beat a defenseless man with weapons? You think we'd still have our jobs and freedom? This would have been a serious felony for anyone who wasn't a cop... but you think cops who do it should get a slap on the wrist.

Again, you want us to treat cops as "human beings", while simultaneously elevating them above the law that the rest of us have to follow.

Also, I never said their was an increase in force, but there is an increase in stories since they're now being caught on camera.

I think there is a systematic problem in the way the police force operates. This does not come from the media, in fact I don't live in the US and rarely consume Western media. It comes from growing up with family friends who were cops, living with family who were cops, dozens of interactions with cops, and extensive, extensive evidence in the form of court cases, video, etc. that span over a period of decades.

The argument that, "oh only a few cops are bad" is so tired, because if that's the case, then why wouldn't the majority stand up and do something against the small, corrupt minority who is making them look bad rather than hiding, lying, and otherwise protecting them whenever possible?

A civilian can be charged with a crime for not reporting a felony or even talking about committing a felony, yet all the cops who either stand idly by or actively protect the "bad apples" are just swell guys who aren't doing anything wrong. Is that right?

If insisting that people who enforce the law also follow those same laws is biased, then I guess I am.

[AntiTrace]

I am not elevating cops above the law whatsoever. Never once had I said that, and that is the second time you have implied it.

Second point: Why wouldn't the majority stand up? Are you serious? Have you ever participated in a team sport? It is extremely hard to rat on your fellow teamates. That is the situation with cops. The vast majority of cops are good dudes, some are loose cannons. The good dudes dont want to fuck over the loose cannons. Also, "wrongs" that are done in the line of duty in order to lock up a criminal are easily passables as "rights". The vast majority of the public lives with a yes/no, right/wrong mentality. The streets arent like that.

Is it worth breaking a law or two to lock up a criminal who is going to break 10-20 laws? I believe so. Sometimes you gotta get your hands a bit bloody to stop the bloodshed.

The problem with the anti-cop movement is that they take incidents with criminals and say "Watch out good citizen, this could be you!" when in reality the average citizen is never going to be in a situation where he or she runs from the cops.

And then they like to insinuate that if we dont fight them back, if we scream and holler and comment on every youtube video, they will eventually take away all our rights! They will show up to our doors and beat us merciless for nothing more than a noise complaint! Sure, I'm getting a bit dramatic there, but that is the argument you have made previously.

Your typical cop is more: .

As opposed to what the fear mongers thinks:




I think were on the same page when it comes to basic human rights, I think our opinions differ when it comes to the actual application of force and the necessities of evil to ensure good.

Does the average citizen have a legitimate fear of cops (besides a random speeding ticket)? No. Does the average criminal? Hopefully. Therefore, I think the system is working out pretty well. Am I just a "frog being boiled alive"?

[YossariansRight]

(04-12-2015 02:40 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

All of these police brutality cases seem to be, without exception, cases where the suspect resists arrest. So, even if you are a bad ass criminal with a record, if you don't resist arrest, the police aren't going to hurt you. In fact, they will like you for cooperating.

I can see their position. When someone resists arrest, it dramatically increases their chance of being injured, creates a risk for the public, uses up valuable time and resources increasing costs, and makes them look bad if he escapes.

If someone knows that he is going to jail and that the police will treat him with kids gloves, then there is no downside to trying to escape. The worst that can happen is he goes to jail anyway and the best is that he escapes.

In Mexico, it is common to see policia pickup trucks driving around with suspects in the back of the open truck, frequently without handcuffs. I once asked why they don't just jump out of the truck and run away. The answer was because they know they will be shot. If there is a clear rule that you will be shot if you try to escape, then nobody will try to escape. Problem solved.

Where's that happening?

I've been told first hand how arrestees, peaceful or not, "trip and fall". Or "there's no tp (toilet paper) in their cells". And the heat in the cells has been shut off in the winter. And good luck getting medications, especially if you're locked up over the weekend waiting for a Monday morning arraignment.

Example: The town drunk who's known to everyone and isn't violent. Ok, PC him when you find him passed out in a park. But to deprive the fucking guy of toilet paper and turn the heat off in his cell in the middle of winter? That's wrong.

Granted not all LEOs indulge in these tortures, but some of them sure do.

[Duke Castile]

It really pisses me off when someone says "he shouldn't have run".

Running doesn't mean you forfeit your rights. It means the police should have to do their fucking job and apprehend you.

It doesn't mean once you're subdued they get to beat you to death.

Unless it's some abhorrent and violent crime they know beyond a certainty I think it's outrageous someone can act like this is acceptable.

Notice also they weren't pulling any punches because he is white; "white lives matter".

Here's another thing that pisses me off since this is related; The police don't give a fuck what color you are, if you challenge their authority in any way, they will come down on you and break the law to do it.

You watch this last guy that got shot in the back by a white cop, and everyone has to make a note about it, but they don't talk about the black cop that comes over casually and doesn't try to help a brother out. He just acts like it's just another day in the life.

Cops think they are above the law. I've known some "good" cops and they have done some very fucked up things. They and other people rationalize this by good deeds these cops do, but this shouldn't be a "well we have to accept the bad if we also want the good scenario".

Go onto youtube and google "police brutality". You will see people of every race getting railroaded equally. There's no conspiracy against minorities, cops are about power and enforcing their will onto other people.

When you watch these videos, you'll notice none of them seem like this is their first rodeo bullying or beating people for no good reason.

They do it routinely and all of their personalities are INTERCHANGEABLE no matter where they are in the country or what color.

These videos are new but the behavior isn't. This shit has been going on since there were cops, there are just more video cameras around and people catching this fucked up behavior.


Most cops are pieces of utter shit, and saying a few bad apples gives the rest a bad name is also bullshit.

It's white people that always say that garbage, but that's because affluent white people don't often encounter cops, either because of their location away from crime, or not engaging in criminal behavior but what most white people don't know is there are more white people killed than blacks by cops. God knows what the beatings etc are like.

So you have a large segment of the population that doesn't really believe that these animals are out there hurting people but I can tell you from personal experience on more than one occasion, they don't pull their punches because you're white.

If those people every came across a cop, and there are videos of it (some guy thinks he can stand up for himself when a cop writes him a bogus ticket, ends up getting tasered) they start singing a different tune.

This stuff needs to end, and these cops need to go down for their crimes.

[Kabal]

Oh stop it, Fisto... typical white cis-male denying his privilege while wearing his Klan hat.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(04-11-2015 09:01 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

That's not the point though, is it?

The argument is that you should always submit to the cops willingly and without question, otherwise they can beat the shit out of you.

The system is beyond saving and it will get worse.

Even if you submit, it may not end good.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/...er-cleared

In this instance they SWATTED a house with children - that in itself is a moronic decision. Even if the father is a murdering psycho, what is the rational explanation for going in full force and potentially killing everyone inside?

There are plenty of similar cases which get no national news attention, where ex-marines get shot and killed (both by black and white cops). You have multiple instances where someone called the cops for assistance, when they left their elderly family member at home and they checked on the person by killing him. "We've got you mam, we are gonna check on your grandfather."

Nah - the police is destined to become Star Wars death-troops - tools of oppression and to quell the coming future unrest with brutal force.

There are still many good men left in the force, but those guys have to realize that they are serving a system which is becoming like the Nazi SS. There were probably some good guys there too, but how much good can you really do?

[Enigma]

(04-13-2015 04:37 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

I am not elevating cops above the law whatsoever. Never once had I said that, and that is the second time you have implied it.

Come on, man.

You said they shouldn't lose their job for what I've already pointed out would be a felony conviction for anyone else. They should not even get fired for committing a serious crime.

How is that not saying they're above the law? Just because you're not explicitly stating that in bold letters doesn't mean it's not clearly implied by your comments, which are right there in black and white.

If you want to retract that, feel free, but as it stands, saying cops should not be punished for a crime on par with a civilian is saying they are above the law.

Quote:

Second point: Why wouldn't the majority stand up? Are you serious? Have you ever participated in a team sport? It is extremely hard to rat on your fellow teamates. That is the situation with cops. The vast majority of cops are good dudes, some are loose cannons. The good dudes dont want to fuck over the loose cannons. Also, "wrongs" that are done in the line of duty in order to lock up a criminal are easily passables as "rights". The vast majority of the public lives with a yes/no, right/wrong mentality. The streets arent like that.

Are you kidding? Yes, I did play team sports, and if someone's fucking up he gets put on the bench, suspended, cut, expelled, etc.

How many times have professional athletes lost out on millions of dollars for not performing? You have guys in the NFL regularly have their contracts dumped for simply getting injured.

There's a difference between ratting someone out, and putting your own career, life, freedom, etc. in jeopardy to constantly cover up for other guys.

Also, like I've already pointed out, failure to report a felony and conspiracy are both crimes, which many cops would be guilty of even by your standards. But you're not saying they're above the law?

"Also, "wrongs" that are done in the line of duty in order to lock up a criminal are easily passables as "rights".

In other words, they can break the law and it's okay. But of course, I'm putting words in your mouth when I say you're arguing they should be above the law?

Quote:

Is it worth breaking a law or two to lock up a criminal who is going to break 10-20 laws? I believe so. Sometimes you gotta get your hands a bit bloody to stop the bloodshed.

"I am not elevating cops above the law whatsoever. Never once had I said that, and that is the second time you have implied it."

Quote:

The problem with the anti-cop movement is that they take incidents with criminals and say "Watch out good citizen, this could be you!" when in reality the average citizen is never going to be in a situation where he or she runs from the cops.

The average person isn't going to be in a position where they're murdered, so then why should I care about murderers being stopped?

Quote:

And then they like to insinuate that if we dont fight them back, if we scream and holler and comment on every youtube video, they will eventually take away all our rights! They will show up to our doors and beat us merciless for nothing more than a noise complaint! Sure, I'm getting a bit dramatic there, but that is the argument you have made previously.

Our rights are being eroded and laws are becoming more invasive. These are facts.

Quote:

I think were on the same page when it comes to basic human rights, I think our opinions differ when it comes to the actual application of force and the necessities of evil to ensure good.

Does the average citizen have a legitimate fear of cops (besides a random speeding ticket)? No. Does the average criminal? Hopefully. Therefore, I think the system is working out pretty well. Am I just a "frog being boiled alive"?

Why do you keep talking about average?

The average person won't die in a car accident. Does that mean we should forget about safety standards on cars, never wear our seatbelt, and/or drive recklessly?

The average man won't be falsely accused of rape. Does that mean we shouldn't take steps to protect ourselves? Does that mean it's not a problem?

And you again continue to conflate "criminal" with bad, which I've already addressed. Like I said, when you are the "criminal" because you had sex with a drunk girl and the cops drag you out of your bed at night and beat your ass, remember that they're just "doing their job".

Should have thought about that before you became a "criminal".

[Enigma]

(04-13-2015 11:51 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

It's white people that always say that garbage, but that's because affluent white people don't often encounter cops, either because of their location away from crime, or not engaging in criminal behavior but what most white people don't know is there are more white people killed than blacks by cops. God knows what the beatings etc are like.

So you have a large segment of the population that doesn't really believe that these animals are out there hurting people but I can tell you from personal experience on more than one occasion, they don't pull their punches because you're white.

If those people every came across a cop, and there are videos of it (some guy thinks he can stand up for himself when a cop writes him a bogus ticket, ends up getting tasered) they start singing a different tune.

This stuff needs to end, and these cops need to go down for their crimes.

Exactly.

Guys on here expect us to believe they never drank underage, smoked a joint, drove drunk, etc.? If you did, then you're a "criminal", regardless how you want to twist it.

Funny how this forum dedicated to fucking girls is full of absolute boy scouts.

(04-14-2015 01:53 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

In this instance they SWATTED a house with children - that in itself is a moronic decision. Even if the father is a murdering psycho, what is the rational explanation for going in full force and potentially killing everyone inside?

The SWATing thing is a good point that I forgot to mention earlier. All you have to do is call the cops and report a false crime and they'll potentially kill that completely innocent person in a hail of gunfire.

People make mistakes, obviously, but the fact that they regularly kill innocent people with no danger present is clear evidence that there is a problem.

And I'm not talking about they bust in some drug den and some chick that should have been there in the first place gets caught in the cross fire. I'm talking about them raiding the wrong address and then beat the shit out of everyone inside for no reason.

For those that think this is just sensationalism, people tried to SWAT MikeCF/ Danger & Play multiple times just recently for comments he made on Twitter, to the point where he had to relocate to a hotel. And he's a successful attorney with law connections around his city.

[kaotic]

(04-11-2015 05:30 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

"FUCK THE POLICE!" is usually the cry of the ignorant.

There's some bad eggs in every crowd. And most people that are down to judge the actions of cops have never been in a situation as stressful as what those guys go through regularly.

or maybe there is actually a systemic problem with LEO's and what's called the THICK Blue Line.

I wouldn't say all cops or bad or good, I'd say 60/40 also don't forget they're in the business of making revenue along with putting legit criminals behind bars.

They're enforcers of the government, like collecting money from businesses, shutting down perfectly legal operations all because of a permit issue.

[AntiTrace]

Well done, well fucking done. The great thing about debates with intelligent people is that sometimes it makes you realize your way of thinking is wrong.

Great points enigma, I liked the your response to the "average person" argument particularly and it makes a lot of sense. And yes our rights our being eroded and our laws are becoming more invasive.

I will also agree with Fisto that my arguements are mostly due to my own personal experiences with police. I have never had any undeserved trouble with them, I have accepted the punishments for my crimes. I however have had my apartment searched due to a certain circumstance. Two cops showed up without a warrant to investigate something. One was an asshole. The other one was a down to earth cool guy. The asshole demanded to be let into my place. The other cop asked. I liked the nice cop and allowed him to look wherever, while I refused entry to the asshole. He sat outside looking like a jackass while the nice cop and I did a quick browse through my place. I've also ran from the cops before, and I believe in that situation, had i been caught, I would deserved rough treatment in order to apprehend me. However I will agree that the treatment shouldn't have been anything more than what would be required to get me in cuffs and to stop resisting.

I stand by my argument that some wrongs done in order to take down a "bad guy" are passable. However I will also agree that gets into a very grey area and is a slippery slope. That comes from military experience where sometimes you have to get creative to take down a known insurgent that uses the restrictive rules of engagement to his favor. However, those military situations are a far difference from civilian situations, and a citizen has certain rights which should not be infringed upon. It reminds of the movie "Unthinkable" and it really makes me think about what is an appropriate wrong that ensures the safety of others.

Zel also makes a good point about SWAT raids. A friend of mine had has house raided, due to a wrong address, when he was younger. Nothing much came of it, however the situation could have easily been far worse and SWAT could have found a better solution than to raid a house in the middle of the night when all the members of the family, including young children, were present.

But I do feel most of the situations are the exceptions rather than the rule.

[sylo]

While I respect the tone of your response, don't you think they wanted at lesat one of the cops searching, warentlessly with your permission, from the begging?

You fell for routine good cop, bad cop.