[Seamus]

I'm not going to wade further into this debate, because it's been had a million times in different corners of the internet. I already posted my view upthread.

I'll just say this to the OP: don't even think about deadlifting again until you've seen a back doctor. You don't have to deadlift to be strong, no matter what macho BS you read online. While I agree you need to strengthen your lower back, you can do it in much safer ways.

Bad back injuries ruin lives, full stop.

[Fortis]

I'd say spike needs to see a doctor for his lower back then a personal trainer/physical therapist who specializes in his injury type. I'm almost 100% sure his injury is due to poor form.

[The Beast1]

Spike, you don't have to do deadlifts again but you should go see a sports medicine doctor. Just do it for us

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(04-09-2015 08:52 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Ok guys I am not going to argue I understand we were all raised in a culture where we got medals awarded for participation not victory so I can understand how people with weak lower backs and traumas that inhibit them from functional moves still like to call themselves "strong" well assume as you please.

Here's a quote that you would do well to read and re read:

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain

You know what they say about people who ASSume?

I was a competitive athlete for more than 12 years before I started seriously lifting weights. I competed in my sport at a national level. My medals weren't for participation, they were for kicking ass and winning.

I don't call myself strong. I am strong. I am also smart, and have adapted my training to maintain strength as my body ages. Pull your head out of your rear, it is entirely possible to be strong without doing regular squats and deadlifts.

[Spike]

I hereby declare Mage the strongest man on the Roosh forum. You win 1000 internet points.

Thank you for all your advice. Please don't school us noobs anymore. We are wasting your precious lifting time.

Look there! There's a child stuck under a tractor, quick Mage, lift up its side and be the hero of the day. We, the weaklings will cheer you on and later tell our grandchildren about this heroic feat.
---------

Anyone whose serious about commenting this issue, please continue.

I myself will see how my back heals in the next few days. If its OK, then I will have a moderate lifting week next week. I usually do this once every six, seven weeks. I do all the same exercises but high reps, and about 50% of normal weight. I'm also getting ready for summer so I'm already cutting calories for a while, I haven't noticed a decline in power but cutting further will probably have this effect. I don't mind and will starting leanbulking when fall starts. For now I want to get as close as possible to 9 or 10% bodyfat.

If the backpain continues I will visit my doctor again and probably see a physical therapist. I think I get 9 free sessions. It used to be unlimited. The downside of this that they usually advise against all lifting or only with the use of baby weights. I have been through this with my shoulder many times.

[worldwidetraveler]

Spike, you may also want to look into yoga or something similar to help stretch out your back. It was a game changer for mine.

[Veloce]

I'm not sure exactly what's wrong with your spine (you really should at least get a diagnosis from a PT or chiro) but it sounds like decompression yoga would benefit you greatly. Do it on your rest days. Here's a good routine:

[Repo]

I agree with others that you should definately see a doctor if indeed your form was good.

I completely understand why alot of people choose not to do deadlifts, because if done wrong it can seriously hurt you. However, if done right, at low weights such as the weight you used, they really should not cause that kind of pain.

So either you did them wrong, or there is something seriously wrong with your back. I'm taking your word for it that you did it right, however if you want a second opinion you can always go to a place like reddit annonymously and post a video in their fitness subreddit. I see plenty of people post videos of their form there who think they have good form, when they really don't. (And of course some who have amazing form)

If there is something wrong with your back, seeing a doctor is crucial because you need to know exactly what is wrong, because there may be other excercises you do that are hurting your back gradually and you don't even know.

Its ok if you don't want to do deadlifts. But you should at least find out exactly why you CAN'T do them, because that is not normal. Genuinely trying to help, good luck.

[Hades]

(04-08-2015 04:59 PM)Spike Wrote:  

@Hades - I recently started doing light kettlebell swings. So far so good. I know my lower back is weak. Always has been and its probably genetic. My dad (not a lifter) used to have severe back pains when he was young and so do my uncles from my father's side.

I tried to do the deadlift to increase my core strength and it would help me with my overall performance but it backfired on me. Literally. All other back exercises go really well. Pull downs, chin ups, seated rows. Just not lower back exercises.

Like I said, muscle imbalance or not, I'm never deadlifting again.ever. Don't wanna be walking with a cane or tripod in my 60's due to a wrecked back.

Swings are a good and viable substitute for deadlifting. Even if you can't deadlift it's wise to hit the posterior chain with something.

[Hannibal]

Do bar hangs to stretch out your back, then a lot of reverse hypers to flush it with blood and facilitate healing.

In the meantime, visit a doctor.

[Spike]

@worldwidetraveler and veloce.

I do stretch three times a week and do some back stretching too. I'm very flexible in legs. Can still kick over 6feet person's head if needed.

I'll look into yoga some more on resting days. I don't have too many of those though. Usually workout 5 or 6 times a week.

[OBERYN_]

It's odd that in a website that tackles politics, religion, race and demographics, national identity and a host of other topics that literally result in deaths around the world, posters act the most like asses toward one other discussing the viability of the deadlift.

Let's please avoid a discussion on the back squat, or give a trigger warning.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(04-09-2015 06:42 PM)OBERYN_ Wrote:  

It's odd that in a website that tackles politics, religion, race and demographics, national identity and a host of other topics that literally result in deaths around the world, posters act the most like asses toward one other discussing the viability of the deadlift.

Let's please avoid a discussion on the back squat, or give a trigger warning.

I think people get most passionate about things that are actually relevant to their day to day lives.
I'm awake 17 hours a day on average. I spend 2 hours a day in the gym on average.
11.8% of my waking hours are spent in the gym, and I'm not counting the time I spend on top of that reading/commenting on fitness related forums or eating a certain way to further my results.
Politics, race, national identity, cartels fighting it out, people of different superstitions murdering each other in the Middle East, SJWs/fatties/feminists, are all very important for the world I suppose, but they make up about 0% of my typical waking hours. It's stuff I'm only aware of when I see it on the internet or on the TVs at the gym. I have stopped caring about politics or arguing about it. The only way to actually have an impact on politics in the USA is bribery. So why should I give a shit? I used to be completely obsessed, now I hardly pay attention. I enjoy my life more when I don't worry about shit that doesn't really concern me.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(04-09-2015 08:39 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(04-09-2015 07:28 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Training, form, and dedication are all very important, as you rightly point out.

But let's be honest here, and not leave out the full truth. There are only a handful of people in the world potentially capable of doing 3x BW or more on squats and deadlifts and be 100% natty. And I doubt any of them do it natty.

This just demonstrates your ignorance of strength sports, no offense. The human body is capable of much more strength than you think.

There are numerous people capable of a 3xBW deadlift and even a 3xBW squat, who are lifetime drug-free. They don't have to be anything special either, they're just average like you and I. The truly special tend to go into the big money sports. I have very average genetics for strength, I couldn't even do a pull-up until I was about 25 years old. I had a weak low back, weak hips, short arms, soft hands, long femurs (for my height) - basically built terribly for deadlifting. I've never touched any drug in my life, not even recreational ones. If I were to use drugs, I'd be pulling 4xBW right now.

Most of you guys here have no idea how to deadlift (to be specific to this thread). You may think you do, you copy form off youtube or some gym bro. but you don't know how to brace your abs, hinge your hips, drive your legs, build tension in your arms etc. Bet most of you don't even know what those things mean. If I were to show you the correct technique and train you for a couple of months, you'd probably pull 1.5x to 2x BW.

There are guys who have bigger pulls, who still suck at technique. I've been working with one who came to me with a 405lb pull at 155lb bodyweight, and his form sucked, he had no clue. A couple of weeks later, tonight he pulled 405lb x2 easily, and his low back pain is gone. He thought his low back sucked. What could be more likely was that his low back was overworked as he didn't know how to use his legs, abs, hips and lats properly.

Mage brought up training with just the bar. One big problem is that most of you start on routines like Starting Strength or Stronglift from the Internet and are told to add X pounds weekly or every session. When I train new people, I'm inspired by Chinese weightlifting system. They get to squat the stick until I'm satisfied with form. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't squat well with just the stick, putting weights on will not improve it. With deadlift, until they've learned hip hinge (from KB swings), ab bracing, lats locking and a whole bunch of high tension techniques, they will not deadlift anything off the floor.

Deadlift, squat etc. are not just strength builders, they are sport movements, which imply skill practice. If you have poor skill, you can't lift shit. If I were to take up baseball (never played in my life), I'd probably miss most of the swings, and if I were to think like you guys, I'd accuse anyone who can swing and hit the ball drug users because they're more skillful than me... See how ridiculous that is?

Anyway, this post isn't for you who have decided to quit deadlifting. It's true, you can get strong with other things. It is for others to read and think over. If you're going to use deadlift to build strength, learn the skill properly.

You know, maybe you're being accurate. And if you are, I apologize for implying that you were not natty.
But several times in my life I have met impressive powerlifters or bodybuilders at different gyms I've trained at, and they have convincingly sworn to be natty, and said some of the same things you did, and they turned out to be closet juicers.
What percentage of olympic level lifters do you think are truly 100% lifetime natty? I bet there hasn't been a single medalist in the past 40 years who has been 100% natty. I bet the nearly all or all of the competitors from any important country that is medal competitive all are geared to the gills.

[Saweeep]

I've said it before but I don't believe there's a professional sportsman alive who isn't on juice of some sort.

[StrikeBack]

(04-09-2015 07:16 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

You know, maybe you're being accurate. And if you are, I apologize for implying that you were not natty.
But several times in my life I have met impressive powerlifters or bodybuilders at different gyms I've trained at, and they have convincingly sworn to be natty, and said some of the same things you did, and they turned out to be closet juicers.
What percentage of olympic level lifters do you think are truly 100% lifetime natty? I bet there hasn't been a single medalist in the past 40 years who has been 100% natty. I bet the nearly all or all of the competitors from any important country that is medal competitive all are geared to the gills.

Most of them are, sure, but they are squatting and deadlifting 4xBW+ with ease, not a mere 3xBW deadlift. It's a difference of strength level. You really do not need to juice to get a 3xBW deadlift.

However, I do understand that to people not in strength sports, they all seem very impossible to achieve without juice. Hell I was accused of juicing when I pulled 4 plates, which was only a graduate end-of-beginner deadlift, because to most people training in normal gyms, they've never seen anyone lift that much.

Strength is skill with specificity. Not just because you're strong in something else that you automatically can lift a lot of weights and vice versa. Think of a sport you're good at, and think how unskilled and terrible an untrained person is in your sport. The difference is not juice, it's skill and training.

[Foolsgo1d]

Deadlifts for a long time were a staple for me and I loved them. However if there was one mainstream workout that causes the most injuries and recovery problems I choose deadlift.

You may use good form, you may be strong but what you're not seeing is the minute ligament damage going on in your spine and knee's. If you have done deadlifts for some time (at least 3 years) and have obtained or gone beyond the 440lbs range your back has been damaged.

An easy way to find out how your back is damaged is from a simple move. Bend your knees, rest your arms on your legs and just stay in that position for several minutes. You should feel an ache in your lower back and sometimes your knee's.

[StrikeBack]

I feel nothing. I've deadlifted for well over 3 years, and 440lb is more like my last warmup than a workset. Am I doing it wrong then?

I can stay comfortably in the bottom squat position to watch a whole 45 mins TV episode. That means my knees, hips and back are pretty healthy.

I used to feel like I got run over by a truck, waking up the next morning after deadlift. This is very common when you talk to people deadlifting. I used to only last about 4 weeks in deadlift linear progression before my hips, SIJ or back had enough and I had to stop.

Well not anymore. Last night (Friday) I had my heavy deadlift night easily repping 5 plates for a few sets, then I even went on to do a bazillion sets of 2xBW squats for technique practice. This morning I woke up early to go boxing - private class, conditioning class then sparring. This afternoon I'm going for a run with some mates because the weather is nice. My back feels great.

This is not to brag. It didn't accidentally happen, I have no above average genetics. I never assumed I had good form, I always thought there was plenty to improve. My form from a couple of years ago on video looks like a joke to me now. I keep learning to look after my body better. I know when to stop and leave that last rep or set in the tank.

Having said that, you are correct, the deadlift is responsible for many injuries and recovery problems for mainstream recreational lifters. It's because those guys are thrown into the lift that they can use the most weights with totally unprepared other than the fact that it's a lift in Starting Strength or Stronglift or Random Internet Routine.

I've mentioned earlier that I do not let novices even lift anything off the floor for ages until they can hip hinge, brace abs, lock the lats and drive the legs into the ground. My own father did not deadlift until 2 years into training. In those two years, he did a shitload of squats, KB swings, pullups and ab wheel rollouts.

When I have time this weekend, I will start a Lifting Tips series here, first focusing on the deadlift (as is the current topic, also I've been fixing many people's deadlifts at my club), so I'm not just talking shit and not giving you guys any actionable solution.

[travolta]

(04-08-2015 01:31 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Ne...I mean Spike, the fact that you are tall means that some of those exercises requiring to bend over can wreak certain havoc on your long lumbar region. It's good to see what other tall men are doing. Sometimes these exercises are magical for the short folk but an absolute nightmare for the more gangly gentleman.

Good recognition.

What you said is 100% bro science. Being tall doesn't not mean you cannot deadlift. lol. You guys talking badly about heavy lifts should hire an experienced coach to teach you proper form. I'd bet money that most of the injuries related to deadlifts are from poor form (not using your hips as a hinge instead or your back, heels coming off the floor, curved back, etc).

[Kieran]

(04-10-2015 09:22 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

I feel nothing. I've deadlifted for well over 3 years, and 440lb is more like my last warmup than a workset. Am I doing it wrong then?

I can stay comfortably in the bottom squat position to watch a whole 45 mins TV episode. That means my knees, hips and back are pretty healthy.

I used to feel like I got run over by a truck, waking up the next morning after deadlift. This is very common when you talk to people deadlifting. I used to only last about 4 weeks in deadlift linear progression before my hips, SIJ or back had enough and I had to stop.

Well not anymore. Last night (Friday) I had my heavy deadlift night easily repping 5 plates for a few sets, then I even went on to do a bazillion sets of 2xBW squats for technique practice. This morning I woke up early to go boxing - private class, conditioning class then sparring. This afternoon I'm going for a run with some mates because the weather is nice. My back feels great.

This is not to brag. It didn't accidentally happen, I have no above average genetics. I never assumed I had good form, I always thought there was plenty to improve. My form from a couple of years ago on video looks like a joke to me now. I keep learning to look after my body better. I know when to stop and leave that last rep or set in the tank.

Having said that, you are correct, the deadlift is responsible for many injuries and recovery problems for mainstream recreational lifters. It's because those guys are thrown into the lift that they can use the most weights with totally unprepared other than the fact that it's a lift in Starting Strength or Stronglift or Random Internet Routine.

I've mentioned earlier that I do not let novices even lift anything off the floor for ages until they can hip hinge, brace abs, lock the lats and drive the legs into the ground. My own father did not deadlift until 2 years into training. In those two years, he did a shitload of squats, KB swings, pullups and ab wheel rollouts.

When I have time this weekend, I will start a Lifting Tips series here, first focusing on the deadlift (as is the current topic, also I've been fixing many people's deadlifts at my club), so I'm not just talking shit and not giving you guys any actionable solution.

I'll look forward to reading that. Also if it's not too much trouble, could you briefly touch on your system for reducing fat while slowly adding muscle.

[Spike]

Here's an update. My back is feeling better on the third day after the injury. Its still stiff and I need to be careful not to make any sudden moves. Last night I almost had a fight with some omega loser who just kept testing me. I'm not a person to start a fight but this guy was a few seconds away from getting his face punched in. There's only so much a man can take. I seriously don't understand how a weak loser not sees the risk in pushing someone who's clearly stronger and more dangerous than him and than thinks he can just talk me down. Some guys intervened and i let it go but was sediojsly pissed about it. He later tried to shake hands with me again and I fully ignored him. What a fucking simp.


Anyway, not the point of this thread. I decide to skip this weeks exercises and keep a steady 2x 5mg valium regiment (even if there's no pain) and start fresh on Monday again with one week of moderate lifting meaning high reps, 50% max weight. I don't want to start loosing mass from not lifting.

I will probably start a non-deadlift lower back strengthening next week but I want to take pics of a couple machines at the gym first.

Stay strong brothers.

[RichieP]

Get "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook" for DIY soft tissue massage. I think it's very likely you'll be surprised at the results... oh and get a lacrosse ball.

[Teutatis]

I used to deadlift and squat and all their variations all the time, did it for years, after I turned 35 I had to stop both completely, my back finally couldn't take it any more. I haven't deadlifted or squatted in two years and yet I look better than ever. Yes, DL and squats are great and if you can do them you should definitely incorporate them in your training, but if you can't do them for whatever reason you can still look great and be athletic without them.

[Spike]

^^^ This. I think that commenters here that are deadset on deadlifting are mostly young guys who think they are invincible. And there's nothing wrong with that. I've been in this phase for many years. All is well when when pr's are broken, muscles are pumped up, barely any rest is needed and a night of heavy drinking and little sleep barely has effect on your workout.
Hell, I used to get up at 06:00, work all in construction and still go to the gym 6 days a week. Some days I did two trainings. First Shaolin Kempo or Jiu Jitsu and then a lifting session right after.
Yes, i did 3 sports and worked as a builder. Back then there was no internet and I knew shit about nutrition and just ate half a bread or more with cheese and peanut butter a day and a big dinner and some dairy. No supplements or proteins, nothing and still my body kept up.
That was, until i wrecked my shoulder for many years but i still kept going moderately most of the years.
The shoulder is reasonably OK now and I can work out hard but at 38 I'm easily winded and need lots of rest and great nutrition to keep up. And honestly, i think its because i dont have a job. Dont know if i could keep up with a fulltime job.

At 38 I'm almost one of the oldest serious "body builders" at my gym. And like I said before, its no Planet pussy gym.

Come to think about it, I'm probably the oldest who'se that serious about nutrition and his physique.

What happened to all those young guys who worked out when I was young? (Rhetorical, i changed gyms a couple of times)

Probably, they're like most 38 year old guys. Either deadskinny from running marathons/jogging or couch potato blobs. Theres always the rule of "One kilo a year". If you stop working out at 25 you'll be 15 kilos overweight by the time you're 40. That's 33 pounds for English speakers.

And sorry to say, that's in Europe here. I think 33 pounds overweight in the US is considered skinny fat.

[Kaebs]

(04-13-2015 11:42 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  

I used to deadlift and squat and all their variations all the time, did it for years, after I turned 35 I had to stop both completely, my back finally couldn't take it any more. I haven't deadlifted or squatted in two years and yet I look better than ever. Yes, DL and squats are great and if you can do them you should definitely incorporate them in your training, but if you can't do them for whatever reason you can still look great and be athletic without them.

I'm only 25 and i've already stopped them as there's really no point in doing exercises such as squats and deadlifts, especially if you're me and you are purely focused on the aesthetics portion of bodybuilding.