[turkishcandy]

I'm a firm believer in the legal system. I disagree with many laws, but if I cross the ones that I disagree with, other people will start crossing the ones they disagree too and soon we will have no laws. Today if we let these people stop douchebag drivers by force, who knows who's gonna stop you from doing something by force tomorrow? In my earlier posts I compared these videos to SJWs in restaurants and false rape allegations, but is it really to big a jump from this to that? The idea of ''right and wrong'' are very subjective. These guys think what they're doing is right and you agree with them and nobody stops them. But tomorrow someone can beat you up for smoking in a shopping mall or running a red light or ''hurting'' or ''harassing'' a girl if the police fails to do its duty, and there will be no one to stop them from beating you because they will think laws don't matter that much and you have it coming. I will defend the rights of the legally guilty people in order to protect the rights of the innocent. Sticking stickers can turn into beating tomorrow and then lynching the next day. We have laws for a reason and if you start crossing them because you think it's right, it will come around and bite you in the ass. Once they start crossing lines and get away with it, they will keep crossing more and more. So it's best to stop them from crossing the first line: they have no right to act as the police and stick stickers and beat up the drivers after they provoke them. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with standing in front of cars and shooting videos.

As for manosphere shaming, it's a matter of free speech. So I have no problem with shaming. It's subject to lawsuits, not criminal law. I personally do bash fat people and sluts in general, but i don't go after individuals for moral reasons.

[JacksonRev]

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

True that you can catch someone when you witness a crime and turn them in to the police. It's also called called citizen's arrest in Turkey. But in the videos these guys go beyond that, they have created their own task force to fight traffic law violaters. They are not turning people in, they are punishing.

We can throw around some examples that justify taking the law into your hands. Most of you have seen Law Abiding Citizen. I can also counter with a few of my own examples. How would you like for some white knights to come punish you after a girl accuses you of rape and asks for help? How would you like some cashier to beat you up when he accuses you of stealing something? How would you like someone to shoot you if you one day get accused of murder? Starting to punish those who you deem guilty starts us on a dangerous path. For starters, ''guilty until proven otherwise'' principle vanishes because as soon as you are accused of doing something you get your punishment handed by the closest witnesses. You lose your right to a fair trial, right to attorney, right to be heard by an objective authority.

Also, though I'm not sure, driving on the sidewalk in Russia doesn't cause arrest because it's probably a misdemeanor. So even if they only turned the drivers in, they still wouldn't be justified.

This must be a Turkish thing.

We had a Turkish soldier that used to always pull this type of stuff in Afghanistan. He'd always say, "Not in my job description." Over and over. Plus, they weren't even authorized to shoot Afghans, even if the Afghans fired at us first. They'd just let them kill us. Never understand that.

[Saweeep]

I'm not sure whether to put this one in the TagTheSponsor thread or here.

Seriously hot and crazy Russian bitch!

[General Stalin]

(06-23-2015 12:16 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

I'm not sure whether to put this one in the TagTheSponsor thread or here.

Seriously hot and crazy Russian bitch!

Feisty one.

[EuroSlumming]

Really funny videos, it seems like driving on the sidewalk is a national pastime in Russia.

[Aenigmarius]

Quote:

"I'M A WOMAN AND I DON'T WANT TO LISTEN! I WANT TO HONK THE HORN!"

[Samseau]

(06-23-2015 09:50 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

Quote:

It is incumbent upon all parties within a civilized society to uphold the law, and to take appropriate measures when they see those laws being broken.

You guys are talking about civilized society AND taking the law into your own hands in the same sentence. Unbelievable. These two are mutually exlusive.

Civilized society is a society where people agree upon some laws and they choose an authority (state) to enforce those laws and another seperate authority (courts) to punish the offenders. Human's natural state was when there were no laws, only power and conscience. People were able to protect their only right, their property, as much as their strength allowed them. And each individual punished the other individual according to his conscience. This is considered a state of chaos by many philosophers like Rousseau, Locke and Hobbes. Individuals can't be objective about their own rights being violated. They abandon rationality and give in to anger. That's why they crated state, a high authority that is objective and independent. State can be as small as a tribe chief and can be as unnecessarily big as USA. Only when they created state were they able to live together in order, that's how civilization started, with the first social contract.

According to your logic, if everyone punishes those who break the law ''appropriately'' meaning according to their own conscience and whims, we are by definition abandoning a civilized society and going back to our natural state. Then only the physically strongest can ''punish appropriately'' and we no longer have the basic rights. Everybody buys a gun and take watches in their houses in case someone breaks in.

This seems like exaggeration by I'm only following your logic and extending it. You have no right to go around and shoot down murderers. You have no right to catch thieves and beat up douchebag drivers. Your rights go as far as self defense, report crimes, protest and choose politicians to pass laws you think should be passed. By living in a society and paying taxes you have agreed to this social contract. You have abandoned your freedom to punish outlaws in exchange for more protection and order. The fact that the police in Russia is incompetent or negligent doesn't give you any right to go out and stick stickers on driving cars.

I'm afraid you did not read your philosophers correctly.

They were talking about handling justice, but not upholding the law. All philosophers agreed that members of a community could work within the laws to apprehend criminals, but then they would need to go to a court to decide upon a punishment.

You seem to think it's wrong for someone to catch a criminal so they can be tried in a court of law - that is false.

What is true is that it would be wrong for citizens to administer punishments on their own. That would vigilante justice. That is wrong. But for regular citizens to uphold the law and throw criminals in a holding cell until they can be tried in an impartial court of law is civic duty.

[turkishcandy]

You didn't read the whole discussion. I pointed out to the difference between turning in/stopping crime and punishing the crime.

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

True that you can catch someone when you witness a crime and turn them in to the police. It's also called called citizen's arrest in Turkey. But in the videos these guys go beyond that, they have created their own task force to fight traffic law violaters. They are not turning people in, they are punishing.

The guys in the video are punishing the drivers by sticking stickers. They think the trouble they have to go through to remove those stickers fits the crime of driving on the sidewalk. That's damaging property. Maybe they have to pay or buy something to remove those stickers completely. Maybe they will have an accident while they are driving home that day. That sucks. And if you try to physically stop them, they are 6 people and you are 1. They hide behind their numbers. That's cowardice.

[NY Digital]

(06-23-2015 02:16 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

You didn't read the whole discussion. I pointed out to the difference between turning in/stopping crime and punishing the crime.

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

True that you can catch someone when you witness a crime and turn them in to the police. It's also called called citizen's arrest in Turkey. But in the videos these guys go beyond that, they have created their own task force to fight traffic law violaters. They are not turning people in, they are punishing.

The guys in the video are punishing the drivers by sticking stickers. They think the trouble they have to go through to remove those stickers fits the crime of driving on the sidewalk. That's damaging property. Maybe they have to pay or buy something to remove those stickers completely. Maybe they will have an accident while they are driving home that day. That sucks. And if you try to physically stop them, they are 6 people and you are 1. They hide behind their numbers. That's cowardice.

How is that cowardice? If there's only 1 person, then how will they have any chance of stopping these drivers?

[H1N1]

(06-23-2015 02:16 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

You didn't read the whole discussion. I pointed out to the difference between turning in/stopping crime and punishing the crime.

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

True that you can catch someone when you witness a crime and turn them in to the police. It's also called called citizen's arrest in Turkey. But in the videos these guys go beyond that, they have created their own task force to fight traffic law violaters. They are not turning people in, they are punishing.

The guys in the video are punishing the drivers by sticking stickers. They think the trouble they have to go through to remove those stickers fits the crime of driving on the sidewalk. That's damaging property. Maybe they have to pay or buy something to remove those stickers completely. Maybe they will have an accident while they are driving home that day. That sucks. And if you try to physically stop them, they are 6 people and you are 1. They hide behind their numbers. That's cowardice.

What happens if they stop a car full of 4 or 5 skinheads? (VERY probable in Russia). You claim cowardice, but what you are essentially advocating is that the law should not be applied evenly to all, because he could easily make his point 1 on 1 against a driver breaking the law, but what happens when there is a force disparity against him? Do the strong simply get to continue breaking the law because his weakness (through numbers alone) means he can only stop those against whom he can provide a credible threat?

Your argument is fallacious, and undermines statements you've made in previous posts.

There is nothing wrong with responsible members of society enforcing laws that may have a material impact on their life expectancy. If you violate the law initially, and jeopardise the lives of others by your actions, you do forfeit some of your rights. You can argue semantics about whether the stickers are over the top or not, but the principle of standing up to habitual criminals who endanger the lives of a community is a sound one.

[turkishcandy]

Quote:

What happens if they stop a car full of 4 or 5 skinheads? (VERY probable in Russia). You claim cowardice, but what you are essentially advocating is that the law should not be applied evenly to all, because he could easily make his point 1 on 1 against a driver breaking the law, but what happens when there is a force disparity against him? Do the strong simply get to continue breaking the law because his weakness (through numbers alone) means he can only stop those against whom he can provide a credible threat?

Law applies to all, the weak and the strong, whether or not it is enforced. I said if ''the protesters were alone I would respect them'' because then it would mean they were there merely as concerned citizens, not a gang of vigilantes who enforced laws and prosecuted crimes.

I'm a nonsmoker and allergic to smoke. Should I start a gang and go around and enforce laws in non-smoking places? Should I fine people or spray paint on them? If I'm a SJW, should I start a group that walks around campus parties and make sure sexual encounters are consensual? Should I beat up guys who I think are harassing women? This is what happens if people take the law into their own hands. People can't punish criminals because they are neither competent nor objective.

Quote:

Your argument is fallacious, and undermines statements you've made in previous posts.

This is the second time you called my argument fallacious. You won't win a debate by calling my arguments fallacious. Stop name-calling and let your arguments speak for you. I'm a reasonable guy. You don't have to put me down.

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with responsible members of society enforcing laws that may have a material impact on their life expectancy.

Sticking stickers on windows alone is an unlawful action and arguably a even criminal one, given the danger it causes for the drivers.

Quote:

If you violate the law initially, and jeopardise the lives of others by your actions, you do forfeit some of your rights.

It seems like you stopped making legal arguments and started arguing what SHOULD BE. Who are you to say who forfeits which rights? Are you or the guys in the video men of law? Only a judge gets to decide that.

Quote:

You can argue semantics about whether the stickers are over the top or not, but the principle of standing up to habitual criminals who endanger the lives of a community is a sound one.

According to who? Are you the authority in that matter? There is no legal grounds for doing what you think is sound. The law has given you the right to defend yourself in case of a direct threat against you, it didn't give you the right to go out and prosecute crimes in whichever way you see ''sound''. That is the job of the state. I went into the philosophy of that in above posts.

[Samseau]

(06-23-2015 02:16 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

You didn't read the whole discussion. I pointed out to the difference between turning in/stopping crime and punishing the crime.

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

True that you can catch someone when you witness a crime and turn them in to the police. It's also called called citizen's arrest in Turkey. But in the videos these guys go beyond that, they have created their own task force to fight traffic law violaters. They are not turning people in, they are punishing.

The guys in the video are punishing the drivers by sticking stickers. They think the trouble they have to go through to remove those stickers fits the crime of driving on the sidewalk. That's damaging property. Maybe they have to pay or buy something to remove those stickers completely. Maybe they will have an accident while they are driving home that day. That sucks. And if you try to physically stop them, they are 6 people and you are 1. They hide behind their numbers. That's cowardice.

A sticker is a punishment? It's going to cause an accident? They'll have to stick their heads out the window and drive. By the way, all that's needed to remove 99% of stickers is soap and water.

It would be damaging if the stickers were put on the car's paint, which may cause damage. But the windshield is hardly a punishment because there are no damages.

[turkishcandy]

I could argue for damages, especially noneconomic ones. But even without the damages it's still an unlawful action to force the drivers to drive for the rest of the day with their head out the window, which is against traffic rules. By doing that you are putting them and everybody else at a greater risk than the one drivers impose by driving on the sidewalk. Wouldn't you agree that it's more dangerous to drive semi-blind than drive on a sidewalk that appears to be empty in the videos? How is this the right thing to do?

[Samseau]

(06-23-2015 04:22 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

I could argue for damages, especially noneconomic ones. But even without the damages it's still an unlawful action to force the drivers to drive for the rest of the day with their head out the window, which is against traffic rules. By doing that you are putting them and everybody else at a greater risk than the one drivers impose by driving on the sidewalk. Wouldn't you agree that it's more dangerous to drive semi-blind than drive on a sidewalk that appears to be empty in the videos? How is this the right thing to do?

I would argue it's more dangerous to drive on a sidewalk. And you don't know if it's illegal to stick your head out a window and drive in Russia.

The fact that youths have to take it upon themselves to enforce not driving on sidewalks shows that police must be stretched thin and cannot patrol these areas consistently.

Furthermore if you'd looked into the background of this youth group you'd see they are Putin approved and they get tons of upvotes from Russian speakers on YouTube. It seems very clear that these guys are helping their community out, just about everyone is grateful, and do not consider their actions unlawful or vigilante.

[civpro]

With all due respect to the Russian people and their cultural strength and accomplishments overall, these videos shows to me why they will never quite reach the level of superpower/civilization that Northern/Western Europeans can: they are too psycho/low inhibition/corrupt.

Always remember, Beta is a good thing. Along with the IQ requirement, the right amount of Beta is what builds cohesive, functioning societies.

[Seadog]

(06-23-2015 11:19 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

I'm a firm believer in the legal system. I disagree with many laws, but if I cross the ones that I disagree with, other people will start crossing the ones they disagree too and soon we will have no laws. Today if we let these people stop douchebag drivers by force, who knows who's gonna stop you from doing something by force tomorrow? In my earlier posts I compared these videos to SJWs in restaurants and false rape allegations, but is it really to big a jump from this to that? The idea of ''right and wrong'' are very subjective. These guys think what they're doing is right and you agree with them and nobody stops them. But tomorrow someone can beat you up for smoking in a shopping mall or running a red light or ''hurting'' or ''harassing'' a girl if the police fails to do its duty, and there will be no one to stop them from beating you because they will think laws don't matter that much and you have it coming. I will defend the rights of the legally guilty people in order to protect the rights of the innocent. Sticking stickers can turn into beating tomorrow and then lynching the next day. We have laws for a reason and if you start crossing them because you think it's right, it will come around and bite you in the ass. Once they start crossing lines and get away with it, they will keep crossing more and more. So it's best to stop them from crossing the first line: they have no right to act as the police and stick stickers and beat up the drivers after they provoke them. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with standing in front of cars and shooting videos.

As for manosphere shaming, it's a matter of free speech. So I have no problem with shaming. It's subject to lawsuits, not criminal law. I personally do bash fat people and sluts in general, but i don't go after individuals for moral reasons.

You seem to be taking an awful lot of liberties in your assumptions. "Accused of rape or harassment" =/= witnessing a crime in action. A more apt comparison would be "Do you have the right to stop a man in an alley who's clearly forcing himself on a woman while screaming 'he's raping me' "?

The people in the videos seem to agree with you that people shouldn't be able to disregard any laws you disagree with. The people driving on the sidewalk think they can, so they're trying to remind them that they can't.

I'm just trying to understand the crux of your issue. You say "there's nothing wrong with standing in front of cars", so you agree with them, but only have an issue when they put stickers on? They're walking down the sidewalk, and refuse to get out of the way (no law says I need to yield to cars on sidewalk...), they get honked at, then they then remind these people they're not allowed on sidewalk, then the driver's want to kick their asses and they don't back down. So you're ok with everything except for the slight additional aggravation from putting a sticker on the glass?

You continually seem to be exaggerating things. You equate witnessing crimes in progress with unfounded accusations or people trying to push their personal opinions. You equate putting a sticker on glass (Which comes off with soap and water, often no on driver's side) with spray painting people or beating them up. I see what you're saying that it's a slippery slop, but where do you draw the line? Do you have the right to then impede their progress? Waste 30s of their time to tell them to get back on the road?

If you're allergic to smoke, and someone is smoking in a non-smoking area, I'd see nothing wrong with asking them to stop. Then if they blow smoke in your face, nothing wrong with spraying water on their smoke, or breaking it in half. Or would that be destruction of property of a $1 cigarette? (smokes are pricey in Canada). They're being a dick and you're just responding in kind. Being a dick and being in the right > Being a dick and being in the wrong.

[NO_LIMIT_CRACKA]

(06-23-2015 02:32 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 02:16 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

You didn't read the whole discussion. I pointed out to the difference between turning in/stopping crime and punishing the crime.

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

True that you can catch someone when you witness a crime and turn them in to the police. It's also called called citizen's arrest in Turkey. But in the videos these guys go beyond that, they have created their own task force to fight traffic law violaters. They are not turning people in, they are punishing.

The guys in the video are punishing the drivers by sticking stickers. They think the trouble they have to go through to remove those stickers fits the crime of driving on the sidewalk. That's damaging property. Maybe they have to pay or buy something to remove those stickers completely. Maybe they will have an accident while they are driving home that day. That sucks. And if you try to physically stop them, they are 6 people and you are 1. They hide behind their numbers. That's cowardice.

How is that cowardice? If there's only 1 person, then how will they have any chance of stopping these drivers?

Is police officers working in pairs and carrying guns+tazers also cowardice, or simply them wanting to avoid the risk of injury to themselves while they're doing their job and also presenting a very big disincentive to attack them when they stop people?

These guys don't have the authority to carry guns to back up their position, so they do the next best thing: roll around with a pack of people. Notice: they're not terrorizing people or roaming around the neighborhood all vigilante style punishing perceived petty crimes. They're standing around at certain roads and wouldn't even have anything to do if it weren't for those drivers blatantly thinking they can just say fuck you to everybody and drive however they want. They don't smash the cars or pull people outside the cars or intentionally intimidate the drivers. But sure enough, the presence of a group of people standing in front of your car is intimidating. And that's the intention. The intention is to say: look, you know you shouldn't be driving here, you're outnumbered even if you're in a car, so what are you gonna do now? Drive people over and commit murder or get into a physical fight 1 vs. 6? No, the smartest decision is just to obey the law and drive back

The ONLY persons who would not be ok with those youth groups forcing drivers to behave are people who'd want to cut corners and laws themselves. I mean, if you have no intention to drive the wrong way on pedestrian roads, how could you possibly have any kind of beef or run-in with those guys?

(06-23-2015 06:35 AM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

They catch their victims outnumbered 1 to 6 and then they put a giant sticker on the front window that are virtually impossible to remove.

They wouldn't HAVE any kind of "victim" to catch if some people weren't driving cars on pedestrian roads just because that may be more convenient

[FilipSRB]

The only way you would not support these kids is if you are a type of guy that would be driving on the sidewalk in the first place if you knew there would be no repercussions.