[berserk]

^ You keep denying the obvious and proven neanderthal traits in Nordic populations. Occupital bun, prominent brow ridge, rosy cheeks, red hair, broad shoulders, elongated skull etc etc.

Basically, any kind of known neanderthal physiology is found much more dominant in nordic populations than in any other population group.

I am certain things will become much clearer once scientists become able to properly sequence the neanderthal genome.

The studies done on neanderthal admixture is based on only 5 people and the europeans chosen were from France where blue eyes and pale skin is not as common. Lets wait until they compare to nordic people. Occams Razor, until just a decade ago scientists were utterly convinced neanderthals didn't breed with sapiens, now they have been proven utterly wrong.

In the meantime, I will stick to obvious clues such as physiological evidence in nordic populations of neanderthal traits.

[Deluge]

(02-19-2015 10:08 AM)berserk Wrote:  

^ You keep denying the obvious and proven neanderthal traits in Nordic populations. Occupital bun, prominent brow ridge, rosy cheeks, red hair, broad shoulders, elongated skull etc etc.

Basically, any kind of known neanderthal physiology is found much more dominant in nordic populations than in any other population group.

I am certain things will become much clearer once scientists become able to properly sequence the neanderthal genome.

The studies done on neanderthal admixture is based on only 5 people and the europeans chosen were from France where blue eyes and pale skin is not as common. Lets wait until they compare to nordic people. Occams Razor, until just a decade ago scientists were utterly convinced neanderthals didn't breed with sapiens, now they have been proven utterly wrong.

In the meantime, I will stick to obvious clues such as physiological evidence in nordic populations of neanderthal traits.

That is completely ridiculous, and one of the dumbest things I've read in a very long time. Trying to ascertain ancestry based on skull shapes is moronic and the most blatant examples of pseudoscience. Neanderthal ancestry does not account for a meaningful percentage of the European genome, I'm talking in the range of 1.5%. It's probably even lower for Scandinavians and there is literally not a single Neanderthal site in Scandinavia, because Scandinavia was uninhabitable due to the ice sheet until tens of thousands of years after the Neanderthals died out. The majority of French people have light eyes, but that doesn't matter anyway because we already know what the genes for light pigment in Neanderthals were, and they are not the same as those in any Human population. Trying to act like Neanderthals are responsible for the Nordic phenotype is literally a joke.

[Sonsowey]

Who knew Indo Europeans would be getting people banned and starting arguments like this?

Can't we all just be calm dispassionate anthro-philologists here?

[Deluge]

(02-19-2015 10:25 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Who knew Indo Europeans would be getting people banned and starting arguments like this?

Can't we all just be calm dispassionate anthro-philologists here?

Haha. This is the problem when people who don't know anything about a topic decide to jump in with their opinion. Just because one happens to have an opinion on something doesn't mean it's of any value! I'm glad Llort got banned, considering what would happen if someone tried to pull this in a Travel datasheet it's only fair.

[RexImperator]

Somehow it became derailed into population genetics.

I seem to recall a study that showed the people in northern Italy to have the most Neanderthal DNA.

[Sonsowey]

(02-19-2015 10:32 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 10:25 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Who knew Indo Europeans would be getting people banned and starting arguments like this?

Can't we all just be calm dispassionate anthro-philologists here?

Haha. This is the problem when people who don't know anything about a topic decide to jump in with their opinion. Just because one happens to have an opinion on something doesn't mean it's of any value! I'm glad Llort got banned, considering what would happen if someone tried to pull this in a Travel datasheet it's only fair.

It's funny to me how interest in this to a large degree flows out of being sort of anthropologists here. What we do in the Travel section really is applied modern field anthropology.

Modern club game undoubtedly evolved from the ancestral form of ancient club game. Discussions of the progenitors of "club game culture" can get rather contentious, with disparate groups claiming different ancestral homelands for these people, and varying racial affinities.



- Pre Historic "Club Game"

[berserk]

(02-19-2015 10:22 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 10:08 AM)berserk Wrote:  

^ You keep denying the obvious and proven neanderthal traits in Nordic populations. Occupital bun, prominent brow ridge, rosy cheeks, red hair, broad shoulders, elongated skull etc etc.

Basically, any kind of known neanderthal physiology is found much more dominant in nordic populations than in any other population group.

I am certain things will become much clearer once scientists become able to properly sequence the neanderthal genome.

The studies done on neanderthal admixture is based on only 5 people and the europeans chosen were from France where blue eyes and pale skin is not as common. Lets wait until they compare to nordic people. Occams Razor, until just a decade ago scientists were utterly convinced neanderthals didn't breed with sapiens, now they have been proven utterly wrong.

In the meantime, I will stick to obvious clues such as physiological evidence in nordic populations of neanderthal traits.

That is completely ridiculous, and one of the dumbest things I've read in a very long time. Trying to ascertain ancestry based on skull shapes is moronic and the most blatant examples of pseudoscience.

Oh really? Skulls are not usefull for ancestry?

Is that why forensic experts can instantly determine race based on skull shape?

http://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...text=totem

It is you who are completely mistaken and emotional. There is no doubt that racial classifications based on skull are easy to do and accurate. Check the link I provided, which is academic forensic antrophology.

http://anthropology.si.edu/writteninbone...cestry.pdf

Quote:

Activity: Can You Identify Ancestry?

The bones of a human skull express inherited features from one generation to the next. Many of these features have developed in response to evolutionary processes, including adaptation to the environment. Since certain anatomical features are found with greater frequency in certain populations, their presence or absence are clues to ancestry.

Forensic anthropologists determine the ancestry of a skeleton by examining the morphology, or shape, of the skull and by taking measurements of the skull vault (cavity) and face. By comparing these results with data from populations worldwide, scientists can evaluate that individual's relationship to a world group.

I'll ignore your emotional insult outburst and refrain from sending 'moronic' right back to you.

[Sonsowey]

Razib Khan has a new post up relating to Indo Europeans' genetic impact on the lands they conquered.

He begins discussing that in South-East Asia, foreign conquerors did not have a huge genetic impact on the locals because they were never great in number and often simply imposed themselves on the top of extractive social systems that had largely been in place. He contrasts this with Indo-Europeans who seem to have been very numerous and mixed with Indians throughout the continent. He has in the past hypothesized that Indo-European social systems were not yet advanced enough to really extract rents from conquered people and rest atop a cushy social system, resulting in the mixing that is evident from DNA.

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/from-cattle-herd...x-farmers/

Which brings me back to the Indo-Europeans. Even if they were not nomads of a classical sort which emerged later on in history, they seem to have been agro-pastoralists. There is now circumstantial evidence for their impact all across Europe, especially the north and east. There is also likely evidence for substantial Indo-European admixture in India. Herodotus reported 2,500 years ago that India was the most inhabited land on the face of the earth. But was it so 4,000 years ago, during the later stages of the Indus Valley civilization?

I will admit I was not primed to accept the idea of mass replacement of indigenous populations in what would later become the Ecumene by populations form the steppe because of the later record of conquest, which was more a matter of elite replacement, than social turnover. But if the genetic data is correct we need to update our models. If the first farmers of Europe were marginalized by invading Indo-Europeans, could not the same have happened to some extent to the agriculturalists of South Asia, who descended from the people of Mehrgarh? The tension between the interior and littoral in Eurasia is an old one, but it seems to have evolved over time, from one of inter-group competition and meta-population dynamics (read: extinction), to exploitation by Inner Asian steppes of the human resources of the littoral. Social complexity and institutional robustness were the best long term investments for farmer populations against nomads, who always outmatched them in individual skill, and often in terms of the tanks of the ancient world, horses.

[American Jesus]

Fascinating topic. I have been interested for some time in Indo-European origins and religion. Regarding genetics, I think it is interesting to note that individuals with light eyes can be found wherever Indo-Europeans left their mark at one point or another, even if today these populations are not speaking an Indo-European tongue, and especially in rural or mountainous areas. I especially noticed this while bicycling through the mountains of northern Turkey where in a village I saw a man with pure white skin and the bluest possible eyes. Just from physical assessments we can glean a lot of information about the spread of the Indo-European tribal empire. The Kalash (who still practice what I believe to be the most pure form of Indo-European paganism still extant) are the most basic proof in my opinion that the traits we associate with modern European populations (light hair/eyes) originate with the Indo-Europeans in their heartland and spread thence.

[berserk]

(02-19-2015 10:55 AM)American Jesus Wrote:  

Fascinating topic. I have been interested for some time in Indo-European origins and religion. Regarding genetics, I think it is interesting to note that individuals with light eyes can be found wherever Indo-Europeans left their mark at one point or another, even if today these populations are not speaking an Indo-European tongue, and especially in rural or mountainous areas. I especially noticed this while bicycling through the mountains of northern Turkey where in a village I saw a man with pure white skin and the bluest possible eyes. Just from physical assessments we can glean a lot of information about the spread of the Indo-European tribal empire. The Kalash (who still practice what I believe to be the most pure form of Indo-European paganism still extant) are the most basic proof in my opinion that the traits we associate with modern European populations (light hair/eyes) originate with the Indo-Europeans in their heartland and spread thence.

There have been plenty of later invasions from the North and West eastwards.

The Goths, Vandals etc, were all germanic tribes who did their tour of the Balkans and Byzans and Alexander the Great of course made it all the way to India. Alexander had blonde hair by the way.

[Deluge]

The Kalash of Pakistan are an absolutely fascinating group of people. I've read that Western tourists to Pakistan go out of their way to see them, even though they live in the sticks. If I ever make it to Pakistan I would like to visit. They are the closest window into our Indo-European forefathers in terms of religion and culture. Unfortunately they are under threat by a small population and the Taliban, plus the majority have converted Islam. It would be a colossal loss if they were to go extinct.

[Sonsowey]

The Kalash are goners man, the Muslim conquests continue. Christian conquests of Native Americans in Latin America continue. These religious expansions aren't something in the past. Look at ISIS in the middle-east, still killing Christians, Yazidis, who are another Indo-European pagan group, ethnically Kurdish but religiously distinct.



I don't think the Yazidis are the "closest" to original Indo Europeans. They have evolved on their own path for thousands of years just like Hindus, and any other group has.

[Beau]

(02-18-2015 08:17 AM)Krusyos Wrote:  

I used to identify as Asatru... no longer anymore. However, it still shapes my living philosophy to an extreme degree, and I identify with it almost as much as Christianity. The main crux that Germanic paganism revolves around is building strong, self-reliant men. I also recommend reading The Poetic Edda, not only to gain the gems of wisdom contained within, but also to find a way to learn more about the people who in most probability have been your ancestors (if you have any English, German, or Scandinavian.

"Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead "

from the Havamal, a collection of Asatru proverbs.

Why do you no longer identify as Asatru, if you don't mind my asking?

I am fascinated by ancient paganism and recently began reading a lot about Asatru, so I'm interested as a way of understanding Asatru better.

[Krusyos]

(02-19-2015 04:02 PM)Beau Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 08:17 AM)Krusyos Wrote:  

I used to identify as Asatru... no longer anymore. However, it still shapes my living philosophy to an extreme degree, and I identify with it almost as much as Christianity. The main crux that Germanic paganism revolves around is building strong, self-reliant men. I also recommend reading The Poetic Edda, not only to gain the gems of wisdom contained within, but also to find a way to learn more about the people who in most probability have been your ancestors (if you have any English, German, or Scandinavian.

"Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead "

from the Havamal, a collection of Asatru proverbs.

Why do you no longer identify as Asatru, if you don't mind my asking?

I am fascinated by ancient paganism and recently began reading a lot about Asatru, so I'm interested as a way of understanding Asatru better.

1) The religion is saturated by not just betas, but all out flaming social justice warriors. It is a toxic culture to be involved in.

2) It does not contain a completely coherent system of cosmology like Christianity (or even Islam). It fall apart under the slightest intellectual scrutiny. At least Christianity is defensible.

3) It just felt empty. All alone, it was insufficient. I don't know if I can describe it, but it just left a kind of empty feeling in my soul.

I still love the lessons that Asatru has to teach us. It was the religion of my ancestors. It has many powerful concepts to show us, but it just isn't enough on its own.

[berserk]

Neo-paganism is in a lot of cases just matriarchal magic worship. I can understand why you don't like that. What I take from the European paganism is a historical belonging to kin and land. It's a great feeling to stand on soil on which you know people 1000 years ago lived and died on. You could say it is to some degree ancestor worship in recognizing we live in the present, the past and the future, never alone like post-modernism claims. We have a contract with the dead and a contract with the unborn. It's a good way to focus on what is important in life, to embrace life, despite the coming Ragnarok (Nietschze's eternal reoccurence), to understand our insignificant role in the universe and how fate is cruel and with a twisted sense of humor and how we approach that random cruelty of life is what decides if we go to Valhalla or Hel(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28being%29). It's also recognizing the importance of nature, the thunder, rain, rivers and forests.

I'm more of a cosmic consciousness believer in person, closer to the Hindu and Buddhist ideas of reincarnation than to the beliefs in paradise. I will be pleasently surprised if there is a paradise though.

With hopefully a couple of kids and knowing that ultimately consciousness is made from the same material as everything else in the universe, then I don't think death is that scary. In some shape or form, we live on.

[Deluge]

(02-19-2015 08:11 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

I still love the lessons that Asatru has to teach us. It was the religion of my ancestors.

Aren't you Polish and French Canadian?

[bojangles]

(02-19-2015 10:06 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 07:14 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

I recommend you read the History of India by John Keay guys. The first 2 sections are about prehistoric India, the Aryan invasion, the pre-existing Harappan culture and the roots of Hinduism. Brilliant book.

Bojangles,

Thanks for the recommendation, do you want to share what you remember from the book?

I'll try finding it in my library and post an extract of it. Hope I've still got it and it's not been robbed by one of my cousins

[Krusyos]

(02-19-2015 10:26 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 08:11 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

I still love the lessons that Asatru has to teach us. It was the religion of my ancestors.

Aren't you Polish and French Canadian?

Polish, Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon on my father's side. I'm awaiting the DNA results for my mother's side, since I don't know her.

[Quintus Curtius]

This is relevant here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31695214

Evidence of mass migration into Europe may tie in to spread of languages.

[Sourcecode]

(02-19-2015 11:47 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

The Kalash are goners man, the Muslim conquests continue. Christian conquests of Native Americans in Latin America continue. These religious expansions aren't something in the past. Look at ISIS in the middle-east, still killing Christians, Yazidis, who are another Indo-European pagan group, ethnically Kurdish but religiously distinct.



I don't think the Yazidis are the "closest" to original Indo Europeans. They have evolved on their own path for thousands of years just like Hindus, and any other group has.

Loss to who?

[Sonsowey]

^ What?

[Sourcecode]

Just realized the wrong person got quoted.

I meant to ask deluge.

He said, them going extinct would be a loss

[Agastya]

(03-06-2015 02:34 AM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

Just realized the wrong person got quoted.

I meant to ask deluge.

He said, them going extinct would be a loss

It would be a giant anthropological loss for sure. Those people practice a set of traditions that may well predate Hinduism, which itself is probably the oldest surviving belief system in the world. Their culture, in all likelihood, closely resembles that of the ancient Aryans who created the Vedic culture in ancient India. Vedic culture forms the cornerstone of most forms of Hinduism. These tribes act as a real-life remnant of a people who existed at the same time as Egypt's Old Kingdom and were hugely important in the cultural development of South Asia. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

An interesting paper on Indo-European origins

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4112997/

http://language.cs.auckland.ac.nz/

Quote:

Mapping the origins and expansion of the Indo-European language family

There are two competing hypotheses for the origin of the Indo-European language family. The conventional view places the homeland in the Pontic steppes approximately 6kya. An alternative hypothesis claims the languages spread from Anatolia with the expansion of farming 8–9.5kya. Here we use Bayesian phylogeographic approaches together with basic vocabulary data from 103 ancient and contemporary Indo-European languages to explicitly model the expansion of the family and test between the homeland hypotheses. We find decisive support for an Anatolian over a steppe origin. Both the inferred timing and root location of the Indo-European language trees fit with an agricultural expansion from Anatolia beginning in the 9th millennium BP. These results highlight the critical role phylogeographic inference can play in resolving longstanding debates about human prehistory.

Basically, they trace the origins of Indo-European languages to what is today Turkey. More people are coming around to this view or a view that combines this with a later second expansion of Indo-European languages out of the Pontic Steppe.

[Sonsowey]

The Anatolian hypothesis is interesting because all the sources I read, like Razib Khan, Dienekes, Greg Cochran, seem to think the Anatolian hypothesis is not supported by the bulk of evidence. As such I have never really heard the affirmative case for the Anatolian hypothesis in detail, only heard the affirmative case for the Steppe hypothesis and heard the Anatolian hypothesis discredited.

I wonder if my impression, that the Steppe hypothesis is generally more widely accepted, is accurate.