[Seamus]

(02-10-2015 09:36 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 09:20 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 05:45 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Instead of spending so much time and energy talking about the apocalyptic "fall of civilization," the life-and-death struggle with "Social Justice Warriors," how "Muslim infiltration" is destroying "Western Civilization," and that restaurants being allowed to deny black people service is the height of the "free market working as it should," we should be focusing on reaching guys like this. Rather, I find us (rather foolhardily) trying to make some kind of wholesale ideological change from the comfort of our laptops. It may feel good to read and say something so unpopular and so verboten, but that short-term contrarian pleasure is siphoning energy--and, more importantly, sympathetic hearts and minds--from our little corner of the world. The wrong voices are getting louder, while the more articulate and pragmatic ones are getting fainter. Don't get me wrong: there's nothing wrong with a bit of social commentary, and taking unpopular opinions; I've always supported that. But we're not doing ourselves any favors by embracing an increasingly fringe status and heavy, even angry and uninformed, tone.

I agree 100% with Tuthmosis' post. I love this forum, but I get turned off by the extreme views and angry ranting sometimes. At the end of the day the RVF in my mind is about helping people improve their lives, and the rest of it is just filler. Thanks to Roosh's work and some posters on here I've improved my closing ability with women, got great life advice in a trying moment, have improved my health, etc. I wish this guy could've done the same.

That said, I'm not sure I'm doing my part either. I know people like this guy in my work, but it's hard to gauge who's open to red pill advice and who's not. Since guessing wrong has consequences, I usually stay quiet.

So the fact that a severely depressed person with a long history of suicidal thoughts kills himself is not the result of mental illness but was instead due to a sub-forum at RVF including opinions with which some disagree and therefore doesn't create a warm and welcoming environment?

I may attend the next meeting of the APA to share these conclusions. Every time someone describes a treatment for a mental illness, I'll just shout them down. "Wrong. Guy just needs to learn game, score some sweet pussy brah."

You've managed to spectacularly miss the point, both mine and Tuthmosis'.

I think the RVF can absolutely help out people in this guy's situation, if not this particular guy. He explicitly said failure with women and low self-esteem from race/height were major factors in his suicide. There are millions of guys out there dealing with the same basic insecurities. They might not jump off of buildings, but they're miserable all the same.

This forum in my mind is fundamentally about self-improvement and becoming a better man, both with women and otherwise, something this guy desperately needed. Tuthmosis and a few others seem to feel that to some extent its energies are being misdirected as of late, and I happen to agree. I also agree that the "heavy, even angry and uninformed, tone" he mentioned is part of that.

That's just my two cents. Obviously it's not my forum. If you want to be a smartass about it that's fine, I've learned better than to get into these pissing matches

[Peregrine]

"Suicide is another thing that's so frowned upon in this society, but honestly, life isn't for everybody. It really isn't. It's sad when kids kill themselves 'cause they didn't really give it a chance, but life is like a movie: if you've sat through more than half of it and it sucked every second so far, it probably isn't gonna get great right at the very end for you and make it all worthwhile. No one should blame you for walking out early." - Doug Stanhope

I don't know that he had it in him to improve himself. Instead of doing so, he went through a two year process of convincing others (read: himself) that it was a lost cause so why bother trying. Some people get up after getting knocked down, and others stay down and mope.

[Tuthmosis]

(02-10-2015 09:36 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

So the fact that a severely depressed person with a long history of suicidal thoughts kills himself is not the result of mental illness but was instead due to a sub-forum at RVF including opinions with which some disagree and therefore doesn't create a warm and welcoming environment?

I may attend the next meeting of the APA to share these conclusions. Every time someone describes a treatment for a mental illness, I'll just shout them down. "Wrong. Guy just needs to learn game, score some sweet pussy brah."

Some things never change: we still don't use feminist-style snark in this forum. Feel free to disagree with anything, but don't condescend to members.

3-day suspension.

[Travesty]

@Veloce's post earlier:

"...and girls being uncomfortable is illegal"

@Wastelander:

"worst case option you can always just live to make the right people miserble..." lol this genius - why kill yourself when At Worst you can just devote your life trolling people you hate to the largest scale you can! Mindblowing! If I ever get extremely depressed I will think of this. I think many cranky old people and fat ugly ogre girls play this game. Could be fun!

[Tuthmosis]

In the name of "transparency," and in case you all start wondering why Lemmo's name now has a line through it, I'll share this with you all. After receiving his (probably too-lenient) 3-day suspension notice, he responded with this:

   

The rules of the forum are always the same on controversial topics, which aren't uncommon around here. You can disagree with anyone, but you can't be a condescending asshole or resort to lame insults or bitchy attitude. Leave the alpha posturing for real life. Then, if you get thrown in the penalty box for a little bit for crossing the line, take your punishment like a man.

Don't be a prima donna who can't contain her emotions, and has to insult or attack the guys working behind the scenes to keep this place running smoothly instead of just changing her tampon.

[Travesty]

^ Lol 3 years on the board too. I don't remember him causing a ruckus before since I've lurked RVF he must have had a bad day.

[Tuthmosis]

(02-10-2015 10:40 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

^ Lol 3 years on the board too. I don't remember him causing a ruckus before since I've lurked RVF he must have had a bad day.

It seemed like a meltdown, yes. However, he had served out a prior suspension for talking down to members in a similar fashion.

But enough about that. The conversation was moving along before we were interrupted.

[Pontifex Maximus]

(02-10-2015 04:30 PM)Lika Wrote:  

This man could have become a sex god. He has the strong facial structure of "Mike Chang's" Six Pack Shortcuts...



Besides the point, I had a fellow Asian friend for 11 years named Mike. I gave him the red-pill after his failed one-itis, he regurgitated it and never spoke to me ever again. It's not a matter of intelligence, ethnicity, work ethic or even depth of blue-pill education: sometimes the ego is just too stubborn.

Some Jezebel comments go," You are just a bitter misogynist because some girl broke your heart huh?" Unfortunately, it's how some of us got here, but we needed the shock. When Orville and Wilbur Wright flew the 12 second airplane, technically they failed to do their job: making bicycles. In process of failing to ride a bike, we found a plane. But most people will be afraid of flying the plane, because falling off the bike already hurt so bad. We all individually fly an airplane, only allow worthy passengers. Or let those meant to be pilots fly themselves.

Tuthmosis made a great point about restricting trigger topics and the "Everything Else" that might damage the image of the Manosphere, but I humbly disagree. Reducing RVF to only "Game" and "Travel" sections might affect the image of the forum. We could potentially go from "Men's Lifestyle/Self-Improvement" to "Men's Sex Tourists". Finally, we should appreciate the quality of intellect we have here. I'm on basketball, economics, bodybuilding, metalworking and investing forums that all have "Everything Else" categories that never analyze socio-economic events as deep as RVF. With that being said...

[Ensam]

(02-10-2015 10:54 PM)Pontifex Maximus Wrote:  

Tuthmosis made a great point about restricting trigger topics and the "Everything Else" that might damage the image of the Manosphere, but I humbly disagree. Reducing RVF to only "Game" and "Travel" sections might affect the image of the forum. We could potentially go from "Men's Lifestyle/Self-Improvement" to "Men's Sex Tourists". Finally, we should appreciate the quality of intellect we have here. I'm on basketball, economics, bodybuilding, metalworking and investing forums that all have "Everything Else" categories that never analyze socio-economic event as deep as RVF. With that being said...

I think the problem is unnecessary negativity. There's a huge difference between discussing a major social or political issue in one or two threads vs. starting new threads for every bit of click-bait posted on Jezebel or the Daily Mail. Half of that shift isn't even true to begin with and it starts to make us look as reactionary and emotional as the people who get upset over the obvious trolling articles on ROK. The former can offer substantial discussion which can alter someone's point of view on a topic or inform them on how to make decisions in their lives - I think that fits the goals and aims of the forum/community. The later is just reactionary gossip and bitching.

[kmhour]

As far as the guy, monster makes a valid point about a lack of societal support structure for someone like this, but I think there are people who react to this kind of feeling by complaining or wallowing in despair, and people who react by improving their station in life. I don't say this lightly, having wanted to lift for years and finding encouragement and motivation to take the plunge (among other places) in the manosphere.

but there is a fundamental lack of willingness to acknowledge that wanting something, and earning it, are two different things. you may be a 5 who yearns for a 9 - all the wishing and wanting won't make it so. either put in the work and do something about it, or come to accept your station in life. as men we should consider ourselves fortunate that our value is so malleable.

as for Tuthmosis' comment about the direction of the manosphere, while it's worth considering, I have to disagree. the internet isn't a zero-sum game and as with anything in life there are beginners, intermediate, and advanced level men. in fact, just like RoK spun off Reaxxion to serve a related need, a Manosphere site aimed at the novice may help to bridge the gap for people who may be turned off by extraneous conversation. but for me personally, I stepped into the deep end when I found Roissy years ago and things I had never consciously thought started falling into stark relief. everyone comes to their own understanding in their own way.

[Lion of Judah]

I think the problem with a guy like this has nothing to do with Game. First off, I believe Game will only make a difference for 5-10% of men out there- men who are highly motivated, into self-improvement, and without severe mental problems or defects. And as it has been pointed out by men in this thread, a lot of guys with these qualities still refuse to take the red-pill for whatever reason (it doesn't go with how their brain is hard-wired).

This dude had issues that were much more profound than a lack of success with (white) women: no one with a cushy job as a food blogger in one the best cities in the world should be whining about how unhappy they are unless there is something seriously fucked up in their head. He had typical first-world problems, and I'm guessing it really doesn't matter how good his life was, he would've figured out how to be unhappy no matter what.

This story and the way people have responded reminds me of the Elliot Rodger debacle. People claimed that only if he had taken the "red-pill" he would have been oriented towards a path of success. Which doesn't take into account how "off" he truly was compared to the norm. And it's hard to tell exactly what triggered his violence, despite people linking it to his rejection by women. This is all unfortunate but true.

[The Lizard of Oz]

I thought I'd repost something I wrote a while back because it seems relevant to all the RVF related talk in the thread. I still feel the same way about this as I did over a year ago.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-29417-...#pid564544

(10-26-2013 03:48 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

I've been reading the RVF for a long time before I joined.

I think the forum has evolved, and it's become more than just a "game" forum in a narrow sense of the word. Of course the Game section remains crucial, but the other sections are valuable and sometimes brilliant in their own right.

The concept of game has expanded. Everything is game. The Lifestyle section is about how to game living your life. Everything Else is about how to game understanding and making sense of the world. Travel is about how to game different countries. The different categories are well chosen, they're broad enough but not so broad as to be meaningless.

Each of the sections has a slightly different feel but they definitely belong together, like different wings of a good house that's being lived in and used in the right way. Like all really good houses it is kept clean but not so clean as to be alienating. It is hospitable to guests and strangers but it is stained through and through by the character and tastes of the owners.

I think the best days of the RVF are still ahead. It is only gaining in relevance and power. Posters are increasing its value every day by sharing their knowledge, experience and camaraderie, and this is true of all parts of the forum. Value is something that accrues slowly over time and there are no shortcuts, nor are any needed.

[El Chinito loco]

(02-10-2015 11:29 PM)Lion of Judah Wrote:  

This story and the way people have responded reminds me of the Elliot Rodger debacle. People claimed that only if he had taken the "red-pill" he would have been oriented towards a path of success. Which doesn't take into account how "off" he truly was compared to the norm. And it's hard to tell exactly what triggered his violence, despite people linking it to his rejection by women. This is all unfortunate but true.

I went and read this Wilkes' guys "reasons" for killing himself. It seemed like he wasn't just a clinical depressive but had OCD too. He quoted stats (like the OKcupid stats image that IRTs keep spamming) and then anecdotal facts and figures to back up his failures. He was clearly obsessed and his own inferiority complex dominated his frame. There's not a single blog post or comment by him breaking down his dating life, approach attempts, or what sort of girls he was going for.

He was clearly a bitter man with severe insecurities and his mental issues just made it all worse. He really was similar to Elliot Rodger in some ways. Rodger internalized his failures into extreme anger at the world. Wilkes' on the other hand decided to end his life with a melodramatic blog post which is the protest equivalent of lashing out at the world. The similarity is that both were attention seeking and looking for validation for their perceived "struggle."

Like Elliot Rodgers I bet this guy Wilkes didn't do many or any approaches in real life. Did he even try to grind it out like Krauser or other respected daygamers? No, Wilkes is just another simp who decided the world was against him and called it quits. At least he didn't take anyone with him.

It's apparent in the way he writes and the people he contacted he was trying to rationalize his own failures. I don't feel any sympathy for guys like this.

[kmhour]

(02-10-2015 11:29 PM)Lion of Judah Wrote:  

I think the problem with a guy like this has nothing to do with Game. First off, I believe Game will only make a difference for 5-10% of men out there- men who are highly motivated, into self-improvement, and without severe mental problems or defects.

I completely disagree. "Game" can benefit almost all men out there. I don't mean dancing around wearing a fur hat and black nail polish, I mean the basic message of self improvement, a better understanding of male value, and pulling back the veil on male-female interaction, dynamics, and relationships. Not every man is going to bang a supermodel, and thinking there is a magic pill is counterproductive. But every man can improve himself.

[El Chinito loco]

(02-10-2015 11:44 PM)kmhour Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:29 PM)Lion of Judah Wrote:  

I think the problem with a guy like this has nothing to do with Game. First off, I believe Game will only make a difference for 5-10% of men out there- men who are highly motivated, into self-improvement, and without severe mental problems or defects.

I completely disagree. "Game" can benefit almost all men out there. I don't mean dancing around wearing a fur hat and black nail polish, I mean the basic message of self improvement, a better understanding of male value, and pulling back the veil on male-female interaction, dynamics, and relationships. Not every man is going to bang a supermodel, and thinking there is a magic pill is counterproductive. But every man can improve himself.

When I used to know some rather hardcore liberals the one thing that they would never ever address in an honest fashion is the elephant in the room.. the concept of hypergamy.

Women choose who they choose for biological and social reasons that red pill adherents all understand. Yet most liberals will consistently dance around this and dole out counterproductive advice.

If they acknowledged the role hypergamy (and in turn SMV) plays in mate selection it would also be opening up pandora's box on the legitimacy of feminism and what "empowerment" really means.

This is how you gauge how honest someone is about gender relations. Throw out some topic bait about hypergamy and listen closely to their reply. If they squirm and dance you know they are blue pill as fuck.

[Glaucon]

(02-10-2015 11:44 PM)kmhour Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:29 PM)Lion of Judah Wrote:  

I think the problem with a guy like this has nothing to do with Game. First off, I believe Game will only make a difference for 5-10% of men out there- men who are highly motivated, into self-improvement, and without severe mental problems or defects.

I completely disagree. "Game" can benefit almost all men out there. I don't mean dancing around wearing a fur hat and black nail polish, I mean the basic message of self improvement, a better understanding of male value, and pulling back the veil on male-female interaction, dynamics, and relationships. Not every man is going to bang a supermodel, and thinking there is a magic pill is counterproductive. But every man can improve himself.

But some men rather whine then improve. You can not help those people. He could have easily find this forum with some Google search, or any other red pill site.

He wanted the world to change, instead of changing himself.

[CJ_W]

(02-10-2015 11:29 PM)Lion of Judah Wrote:  

This story and the way people have responded reminds me of the Elliot Rodger debacle. People claimed that only if he had taken the "red-pill" he would have been oriented towards a path of success. Which doesn't take into account how "off" he truly was compared to the norm. And it's hard to tell exactly what triggered his violence, despite people linking it to his rejection by women. This is all unfortunate but true.

Well there's different ways to take the "Red Pill" (God I hate that term but anyway)

I think the BEST way would be to do what that one suicidal dude did a few years ago: He went to mexico, and spent a week Banging hot ass hookers and snorting coke, and partying the guy had so much fun he dug himself out of that depression.

Now of course this guy doesn't need to go that extreme, but damn, Amsterdam is not that far, he could have went there for a week, had a blast then decide to go to EE! THEN he'd be more receptive to what's really going on (Red Pill) and he'd be more teachable then.

as for the Everything Else section not having a bad impact. This is just plain out bad, You can't have one festering area of negativity and not expect it to stay contained in that one area(its like expecting a Rotten apple not to spoil all the other apples in the barrel), this site is a google searchable forum, ALREADY connected to ROK (I found the forums through an ROK article about Latin dance lol) meaning, this forum attracts a LOT of the angry, depressed, etc men who ALREADY KNOW that game exists. usually they deny game and self improvement.

Then you have the biggest issue with the Everything else forums:

SJW Shills who get directed here. You DO know that all it takes is for enough shills to start making shit posts that make the forums look bad, (and I mean BAD) and try to form some kind of Crusade to take the forums down? If it weren't for the mods these forums would have to be either taken down, subscription only, or put on some kind of secret newsgroup or whatever. Then there's Shills of all kinds of agendas and persuasions, just causing a bunch of noise that a lot of men who come here specifically looking for game/lifestyle advice get drowned out in.

Guys like the blogger DON'T NEED to be constantly drawn to more negativity. They need help. Which is why the Everything Else forums aren't really helping more than hurting.

I mean where do your priorities lie? Do they rest in creating the life you want? or do they rest in finding out the newest "news" in the war against men?

I'm telling you right now, Unless you have enough money to the point where you don't need to work, or a location independent income, with a harem of hot, young women you can call up for sex anytime you want, and have them clean and cook for you, having the ability to travel where ever you want, whenever you want, while enjoying your life and other hobbies. Have decent health and a great body, decent wardrobe, and the game ability to get any TYPE of girl you want, then you need to align your priorities to that. Life is meant to be enjoyed, not wallowing in struggle. Thing is, most guys (and by most I mean like 95% at least)on this forum aren't anywhere CLOSE to that, period.

Now if you want to "lead the revolution" or what not, then there are way better places to do so than the forums.

In my opinion, the answer is the paragraph above: Get your life how you want it, and stop worrying about what's going on in the world. Hell even the BIBLE mentions something like that "Be in the world, but not of it" You guys got to wake up. Star enjoying your lives. You can't enjoy your lives constantly poking at the problem. ESPECIALLY when the solutions are 2-3 hyperlinks away, or have already been thrown at you time after time on these forums. There's no need to waste your time when there's a whole world out there waiting for men who know how to be men.

It's time to get your shit together.

[El Chinito loco]

(02-11-2015 12:23 AM)CJ_W Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:29 PM)Lion of Judah Wrote:  

This story and the way people have responded reminds me of the Elliot Rodger debacle. People claimed that only if he had taken the "red-pill" he would have been oriented towards a path of success. Which doesn't take into account how "off" he truly was compared to the norm. And it's hard to tell exactly what triggered his violence, despite people linking it to his rejection by women. This is all unfortunate but true.

Well there's different ways to take the "Red Pill" (God I hate that term but anyway)

I think the BEST way would be to do what that one suicidal dude did a few years ago: He went to mexico, and spent a week Banging hot ass hookers and snorting coke, and partying the guy had so much fun he dug himself out of that depression.

Now of course this guy doesn't need to go that extreme, but damn, Amsterdam is not that far, he could have went there for a week, had a blast then decide to go to EE! THEN he'd be more receptive to what's really going on (Red Pill) and he'd be more teachable then.

This would have been the most proactive step to his problem but he was probably surrounded by SJW types that would immediately shame this. Also, he was an oversensitive snowflake so it's likely he would have been immediately cowed by that criticism too. This is a guy who was obsessed with rejection in the anglosphere.

Foodies and people who read those blogs are almost always hipsters and upper class liberals.

His mind was so narrowly focused on one social environment that it's unlikely he would accept other possibilities.

[Scoundrel]

This guy did lots of research, proving that the odds were against him.

Han Solo says...

[8ball]

(02-10-2015 07:47 PM)the virgin chronicles Wrote:  

This is why I hate it when people mock Mystery/RSD for saying looks don't matter. "Looks don't matter" is a very useful mindset for guys getting into seduction. Is it literally true 100% of the time? No...

You are wrong, they should be mocked for saying stuff like that, its childish, irresponsible and to me blatantly deceitful. I never got "pua's" that teach "looks dont matter" while at the same time give fashion advice. If looks don't matter then why should i spend so much money on new clothes? Its much better to know this at the start so that you can adjust your game and style to maximize your result. This way you know what you did wrong and what you did right. A decent looking guy might hurt his chances by "over-gaming" if he believes the above statement. On the other hand an unattractive guy could waste valuable time and money gaming the wrong way.

Game and swallowing the red pill is about learning the truth however shocking and uncomfortable that may be. Don't let one suicide change that.

[Pride male]

Suicide is omega, unless it is wartime and one is trying to avoid capture.

[Fortis]

Funny how guys like him can attain fame, but they can't be introspective for a moment go google shit like, "how to get girls" or "why doesn't anyone like me?"

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(02-11-2015 12:31 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

...

This would have been the most proactive step to his problem but he was probably surrounded by SJW types that would immediately shame this. Also, he was an oversensitive snowflake so it's likely he would have been immediately cowed by that criticism too. This is a guy who was obsessed with rejection in the anglosphere.

Foodies and people who read those blogs are almost always hipsters and upper class liberals.

His mind was so narrowly focused on one social environment that it's unlikely he would accept other possibilities.

That is the main problem. He seems to have encountered the Game teachings sometime, but he talked like a former PUAHATE member, so essentially rejected it violently and came out of it believing more firmly that looks (height & race) and money are the 2 determining factors and there is nothing that can be done about those things as far as he was concerned.

Also - he did not seem overly depressive to me. He was probably one of the most lucid suicidal guys I have seen. Those guys here like Lemmo who scream that the psychiatric world with more pharma would have helped him and their ever expanding definitions of mental illness (authority defiance disorder for example for anyone who questions ANYTHING MAINSTREAM - according to current psychology everyone here is mentally ill except for the trolls and paid shills).

And no - we don't overestimate the Blue Pill men out there. They are practically everywhere - and the hip, liberal, SJW crowd consist mainly of them. I know their society and within their group you get laid due to being cool, good-looking, wealthy etc. Guys with Game fuck their women on the side, but that is little known - as the ladies can only take so much effeminate behavior.

Many men sense that something is wrong and others have heard about Game, but that does not make you see the light and ACCEPT the light. It's essentially a drowning man at sea who sees the shore, but won't believe it exists, turns around and prefers to swim back to the open sea.

It's sad, but more of those men are to come.

[CactusCat589]

Quote:

To the ladies out there, I want to be clear, I am not angry at you. You are just doing what you are genetically programmed to do. (If you don’t believe me do your own research, there are many papers out there which agree with my findings). However, what I am angry about is the continual stream of people who are trying to lie to me. That is unacceptable.

That is verbatim what any of us might say, isn't it?

1. Recognition that women are governed by primal instinct.
2. The hostility is rightfully directed to people who are trying to keep you from learning about precept 1. The liars.

So worse than taking the blue pill, he's a Cypherite. Took the red pill, then rejected it.

[kazz]

Not sure about the guys saying they don't feel sympathy and calling the guy weak and a loser. The guy obviously had more issues than not being able to get pussy; was obviously severely depressed. Save the lack of empathy for those that deserve it, the guy was clearly not a loser or weak, he needed some help and support; that's what most of us are on this forum for.