[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-03-2015 05:17 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

So Volando, your essentially saying that ISIS and the American military have the same moral compass?

No. My main point is that gruesome executions like the beheadings and this burning are part of a deliberate and thus far successful strategy by ISIS to draw in outside western powers. Their whole narrative is that apostates and crusaders are teaming up against the righteous. This serves their recruitment purposes. They are winning.
I am also saying that ISIS is not our problem and that it makes no sense for the United States to continue to spend a great amount of blood and treasure to attempt to use military force to solve a complex religious ethnic sectarian conflict.
I am also saying that the argument that we broke Iraq and therefore have to somehow attempt to fix it via an indefinite occupation is foolish on multiple levels. One, it will never work. Two, the original problem is the British making three different ethnic groups with a history of hatred and conflict form a single "country." It is a bullshit country from the start. So, let them "fix it." I'm sure a thousand years of Sunni-Shiite hatred will be washed away by the gentle cleansing power of bombs and bullets.
Lastly, I am not at all against the measured use of military force in wars of necessity. I also strongly support the nuclear deterrent of the USA as our ultimate guarantor of territorial integrity.
I am just against the wanton, stupid, and expensive use of force in bullshit wars of choice that make some people rich and some people dead and solve nothing at all.
I would like to see the supplemental Pentagon budget of 60 Billion extra for Middle East war spent on just about anything else, maybe some for NASA, maybe some to fix some of our shitty infrastructure.

[Dr. Howard]

I agree, its some sort of trap. Why else would they bait their enemies like this? For example, negotiating for prisoners when they've already burned their prisoner up a month ago? My only guess is that they want some major military force to come at them, so they can capture on video the US or its allies bombing human shields and other atrocities they set them up for...thats how they got members in the first place, and more american bullets going into their fellow muslims would likely stir up recruitment again. Not even straight up soldiers, can you imagine how many liberal women and their hipster thrall would take to the streets to protest against american military action if ISIS could document or fabricate a modern day My Lai? That "I'll ride with you" bullshit is a good example.

[Seamus]

Jesus, I really wish you wouldn't have posted that picture in the OP (not criticizing you for doing so, just wish I hadn't seen it)

I was having a great morning, got my first argentine bang last night, fairly light day at work, then boom I saw this in the news, and I've been fucking brimming with rage all day since. I know that that's exactly the reaction ISIS was trying to provoke, but goddamn if it didn't work. I want all these bastards dead yesterday.

I read this article today in the New Yorker. It basically compares ISIS to a death cult, in that what they're doing makes almost zero strategic sense, but they just don't give a damn. Some people want to watch the world burn.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comm...kenji-goto

[Seamus]

(02-03-2015 04:01 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

** On an unrelated note, I really really wish I knew how to edit video as well as they do. The technical value of the production seems very good to me. I wonder what they use.

Out of curiosity: Am I misreading, or does this mean you tracked down and watched the video of this guy being burned alive? I can't even begin to wrap my head around that

[TheWastelander]

(02-03-2015 07:13 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

Jesus, I really wish you wouldn't have posted that picture in the OP (not criticizing you for doing so, just wish I hadn't seen it)

I was having a great morning, got my first argentine bang last night, fairly light day at work, then boom I saw this in the news, and I've been fucking brimming with rage all day since. I know that that's exactly the reaction ISIS was trying to provoke, but goddamn if it didn't work. I want all these bastards dead yesterday.

I read this article today in the New Yorker. It basically compares ISIS to a death cult, in that what they're doing makes almost zero strategic sense, but they just don't give a damn. Some people want to watch the world burn.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comm...kenji-goto

It makes more sense when you consider the fact that evil rich assholes in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait and probably some Pakistani jerkoffs were/are funding ISIS.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan often use terrorist groups for a variety of reasons. So does Iran with Hezbollah, but they're currently at war with ISIS because Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are their Sunni rivals and they're Shiites.

This also leads to weird situations like Iran being buddy buddy with Bashar Al-Assad because he's a more secular dictator ruling over a majority Sunni country and they have the same enemies.

I'm convinced powerful entrenched elements in these states use terrorist groups as proxy armies.

I'd argue that guys like Assad, Gaddafi, and Saddam are/were leftovers from the Cold War-era. This sort of islamic imperialist movement has always been a thorn in their sides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre) but wasn't as big of a threat to them until the US came in and made the region even more unstable. Groups like ISIS thrive in power vacuums. They generally don't do well against amoral dictators who, like them, are willing to murder their own mothers to maintain power.

There's some really Game of Thrones-ish shit going on behind the scenes that the common person will only probably learn about 100 years from now, if things have settled down by then.

[Grange]

(02-03-2015 06:35 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 06:12 PM)Grange Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 05:10 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 05:04 PM)Grange Wrote:  

Point of clarification: where does the Iraq War fit in here?

An idiotic, wrongheaded military invasion and toppling of a dictator who kept his country mostly stable.

You can theorize about all the reasons you think it happened (oil, racism, military industrial complex, whatever) but historically what I described above is what it is.

What I don't like about the blame America first crowd is you can never win with them. They have a grievance no matter what you do. Prop up a dictator who keeps his country stable? "America supports dictators!" Topple them? "America is an imperialist nation!" Try to clean up the mess? "It's not our problem!" People start getting killed? "Look at what you did, America!"

They're usually left-wing political opportunists who pretend to be morally superior to everyone else which is, of course, complete horse shit. But that's politics. The dirtiest player wins the game.

What I meant specifically is does a wrongheaded invasion that ends up with hundreds of thousands dead count as atrocity or mass murder?

It does to ISIS's target audience.

No, it doesn't count as mass murder because initially two armed groups took each other on. The US military vs. the Iraqi Army and then various rebel groups and terrorists like AQI. It's called war. Unfortunately innocent people are caught in the crossfire in every war, no matter how "just" or unjust you think the war is.

However, we don't go out of our way to deliberately attack them.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think they put armed resisters to the US occupation and uninvolved bystanders in separate categories, i.e. if resistance is justified then killing a resister is unjustified. That's the simplest way I can think of to explain it.

[El Chinito loco]

(02-03-2015 06:45 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 05:17 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

So Volando, your essentially saying that ISIS and the American military have the same moral compass?

No. My main point is that gruesome executions like the beheadings and this burning are part of a deliberate and thus far successful strategy by ISIS to draw in outside western powers. Their whole narrative is that apostates and crusaders are teaming up against the righteous. This serves their recruitment purposes. They are winning.

This strategy only works for them when an administration is stupid enough to fall for it and commits large numbers of a conventional force to "win hearts and minds" on some half-assed democracy project while sending 18 year olds on pointless patrols to get blown up by insurgent IEDs.

What they don't expect and can't deal with is a completely asymmetric response. A wealthier developed nation fully committed to this course has the resources to fight insurgency properly. You don't deal with guerilla fighters by throwing conventional forces at them. That is..unless you want to go total war like the Russians did on Chechnya and just reduce everything to rubble and bodies. That's impractical in this situation.

What is practical is taking the kid gloves off and utilizing any and all methods to deal with 13th century barbarians. You can't reason with people like this. They are fanatics and should be dealt with as such.

This story always warms my heart I don't know if it's true or not and Russia probably denies it to this day but something tells me it probably happened before.

Quote:

In October 1985, specialist operators from the KGB's Group "A" (Alpha) were dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon. The Kremlin had been informed of the kidnapping of four Soviet diplomats by the militant group, the Islamic Liberation Organization (a radical offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood). It was believed that this was retaliation for the Soviet support of Syrian involvement in the Lebanese Civil War.[9] However, by the time Alpha arrived, one of the hostages had already been killed. It is alleged that through a network of supporting KGB operatives, members of the task force identified each of the perpetrators involved in the crisis; once these had been identified, the team began to take relatives of these militants as hostages. Following the standard Soviet policy of not negotiating with terrorists, some of the hostages taken by Alpha were dismembered, and their body parts sent to the militants. The warning was clear: more would follow unless the remaining hostages were released immediately. The show of force worked, and for a period of 20 years no Soviet or Russian officials were taken captive, until the 2006 abduction and murder of four Russian embassy staff in Iraq.

This is really how you deal with fanatics. You don't even need to identify the main executioners just find out who the top 50 ISIL guys are and roster up their families and friends worldwide. Work from the top down until you find someone they actually care about. There is no moral high ground here, you simply have to do what is necessary and at the end of the day wash your hands of this entire bloody mess.

[RexImperator]

^^^ the Col. Kurtz method

[El Chinito loco]

(02-03-2015 08:23 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

^^^ the Col. Kurtz method

History and current action elsewhere (Xinjiang) shows it works or continue to moralize and handwring while doing jack shit like most of the west is doing right now.

[Aer]

It's hard to follow the Geneva Convention when your ideology gives explicit details that break any and all codes of modern warfare.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-03-2015 07:39 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 04:01 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

** On an unrelated note, I really really wish I knew how to edit video as well as they do. The technical value of the production seems very good to me. I wonder what they use.

Out of curiosity: Am I misreading, or does this mean you tracked down and watched the video of this guy being burned alive? I can't even begin to wrap my head around that

I did. After seeing some screenshots, I wanted to see the full cut. I'm curious about what they do and why, and how they view themselves.
It is about 21 minutes long, and the first 15 minutes are propaganda about the bombing campaign and the apostate Arab allies of the United States and the Jews, etc etc. Everything is slickly edited and includes special affects.
It will definitely appeal to their target audience.
As for the execution bit, it wasn't anywhere near as gruesome as some of the stuff on Best Gore.

[Sourcecode]

I found a link online with the video.
I've seen some fucked up shit.
This is the current most fucked up.

One thing I have admit.. as fucked up as it sounds.. ISIS has a really good editor.
Not online in terms of skill.. but seriously.. who can sit down and edit a video like that.
Do you know how long someone had to sit infront of a computer to do that...

[Aer]

(02-03-2015 08:29 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 07:39 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 04:01 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

** On an unrelated note, I really really wish I knew how to edit video as well as they do. The technical value of the production seems very good to me. I wonder what they use.

Out of curiosity: Am I misreading, or does this mean you tracked down and watched the video of this guy being burned alive? I can't even begin to wrap my head around that

I did. After seeing some screenshots, I wanted to see the full cut. I'm curious about what they do and why, and how they view themselves.
It is about 21 minutes long, and the first 15 minutes are propaganda about the bombing campaign and the apostate Arab allies of the United States and the Jews, etc etc. Everything is slickly edited and includes special affects.
It will definitely appeal to their target audience.
As for the execution bit, it wasn't anywhere near as gruesome as some of the stuff on Best Gore.

Don't even remind me about this site. My roommate in college used to watch beheading videos and dare me too.

Chechnyan beheading still gives me nightmares

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-03-2015 08:15 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

This strategy only works for them when an administration is stupid enough to fall for it and commits large numbers of a conventional force to "win hearts and minds" on some half-assed democracy project while sending 18 year olds on pointless patrols to get blown up by insurgent IEDs.

What they don't expect and can't deal with is a completely asymmetric response. A wealthier developed nation fully committed to this course has the resources to fight insurgency properly. You don't deal with guerilla fighters by throwing conventional forces at them. That is..unless you want to go total war like the Russians did on Chechnya and just reduce everything to rubble and bodies. That's impractical in this situation.

What is practical is taking the kid gloves off and utilizing any and all methods to deal with 13th century barbarians. You can't reason with people like this. They are fanatics and should be dealt with as such.

This story always warms my heart I don't know if it's true or not and Russia probably denies it to this day but something tells me it probably happened before.

Quote:

In October 1985, specialist operators from the KGB's Group "A" (Alpha) were dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon. The Kremlin had been informed of the kidnapping of four Soviet diplomats by the militant group, the Islamic Liberation Organization (a radical offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood). It was believed that this was retaliation for the Soviet support of Syrian involvement in the Lebanese Civil War.[9] However, by the time Alpha arrived, one of the hostages had already been killed. It is alleged that through a network of supporting KGB operatives, members of the task force identified each of the perpetrators involved in the crisis; once these had been identified, the team began to take relatives of these militants as hostages. Following the standard Soviet policy of not negotiating with terrorists, some of the hostages taken by Alpha were dismembered, and their body parts sent to the militants. The warning was clear: more would follow unless the remaining hostages were released immediately. The show of force worked, and for a period of 20 years no Soviet or Russian officials were taken captive, until the 2006 abduction and murder of four Russian embassy staff in Iraq.

This is really how you deal with fanatics. You don't even need to identify the main executioners just find out who the top 50 ISIL guys are and roster up their families and friends worldwide. Work from the top down until you find someone they actually care about. There is no moral high ground here, you simply have to do what is necessary and at the end of the day wash your hands of this entire bloody mess.

I just don't see murdering/torturing the family members and friends of the top fifty guys at ISIS as a winning strategy for a number of reasons. First, is it really possible to even identify all of the real shot callers? I doubt it. Second, even if it were possible to identify the top 50 guys, would blackmailing them cause them to attempt to disband ISIS? I don't think so, and I don't think their subordinates would obey such an order even if it were given (they'd have to know their commander was under duress from getting a box full of body parts). Third, what about killing them, what would happen then? Truth is, you would be lucky to kill even 15/50, and if you somehow had the ability to instantly kill all 50 tonight, ISIS would not disappear. Their operations would be disrupted for a few weeks, but within say 5 or 6 months, and probably less, many mid range guys would step up to the plate. They could be replaced. There is plenty of military talent in the area from the Sunni officer core of Saddam's army. We probably trained some of them.
They represent an ideology. You can't bomb away an idea.
Lastly, the heart of this matter is the Sunni - Shiite schism.
That is not going away.
Let them have their fun, this is not a fight where the USA can make a real difference, nor should it try. Unless something directly threatens our national security/territorial integrity or the lives of our citizens, we should stay the fuck out.

[JustlookingForAGoodTime]

Pretty messed up to be sure.

But as someone who has spent years following and collecting material about the situation in Mexico as well as other countries to the south, let me tell you this is nothing.

Not even close.

[TheWastelander]

I think these groups offer young muslim men in the west a purpose, cause and something to fight for and that's why many join up with them.

Meanwhile our governments offer young men nothing to fight for and actively shit on them. Who wants to sign up and fight for student loans, feminism, and faggotry? Instead of trying to direct the destructive and creative forces of the male youth they try to drug them right out of them and make them slaves to the system.

Western men are idle men, enjoying the pleasures they're allowed to enjoy for a limited amount of time by a thoroughly corrupt, diseased establishment. The noose is slowly tightening, however.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-03-2015 08:42 PM)JustlookingForAGoodTime Wrote:  

Pretty messed up to be sure.

But as someone who has spent years following and collecting material about the situation in Mexico as well as other countries to the south, let me tell you this is nothing.

Not even close.

Google: best gore mexican cartel chainsaw

[Easy_C]

This issue runs deeper than most of you have any idea.

I'll just leave this here. It's an older post, back when ISIS was just known as "syrian rebels"

"Syria-benghazi connection"

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/09/04...onnection/

[JustlookingForAGoodTime]

(02-03-2015 08:45 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(02-03-2015 08:42 PM)JustlookingForAGoodTime Wrote:  

Pretty messed up to be sure.

But as someone who has spent years following and collecting material about the situation in Mexico as well as other countries to the south, let me tell you this is nothing.

Not even close.

Google: best gore mexican cartel chainsaw

Got that video on the same day it came online. It was something new but the guy who got chainsawed had an easy death. The other guy was beheaded with what seemed to be the dullest knife in the world since it took seemingly forever for his head to be cut off. BTW-It was their own people (CDS) who killed them.

But even that's not the worst thing i've found or even heard of. One video of a guy bound and being systematically beaten to death with a baseball bat is pretty much the top of the list. Another has some guy being hung upside down, castrated, throat cut, then dismembered and bagged for disposal. The pictures of those who got skinned alive are also pretty brutal.

I have a whole file i keep for those who don't have a clue what is going on down there.

[Vronsky]

In 1982 Hafez Al-Assad order his military forces to raze down the town of Hama, base of operations for the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, who were giving his Baathist regime a lot of trouble. After the siege, approximately 20,000 to 40,000 people were killed and Al-Assad was denounced everywhere in the Western world. But he had eradicated the disease of Islamism and Syria enjoyed a secular, albeit undemocratic, society up for almost 30 years until 2011 when under the guise of the Arab Spring, Islamists armies, initially backed and funded by the US and her Middle Eastern allies, started to tear the country in half. The result: 190,000 dead and more than 3 million Syrians fleeing to neighbouring countries living as refugees.

In hindsight, guys like Al-Assad and Saddam Hussein know exactly what needs to be done in order to eliminate destabilizing elements in their societies, and maintain power; go all Old Testament and smite those against you. They are not bound by rules of engagement like the Geneva Convention and since all parties come from the same culture they know exactly what needs to be done. It is terrible for groups like the Kurds in Iraq who suffered from Saddam's wrath after the Americans betrayed them in the 1990s but groups like Al Qaeda, and others of their ilk, could not even gain a toe-hold in Syria until 2011 when a power vacuum occured.

I bet you anything that Iraqis and Syrians wish a hundred-fold times to live under Assad's and Hussein's rule rather than the horrific chaos that their countries have been engulfed in.

[MidJack]

(02-03-2015 06:02 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

And lets not forget how Iran is mixed in with all of this and have provided more help than these US-led air strikes.

Since ISIS has massacred Yazidis specifically and put Shia holy sites in Iraq at risk, Iran is absolutely motivated to intervene, and the US appears to be non-interfering.

The common-enemy dynamic is interesting.

[El Chinito loco]

(02-03-2015 08:39 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

I just don't see murdering/torturing the family members and friends of the top fifty guys at ISIS as a winning strategy for a number of reasons. First, is it really possible to even identify all of the real shot callers? I doubt it. Second, even if it were possible to identify the top 50 guys, would blackmailing them cause them to attempt to disband ISIS? I don't think so, and I don't think their subordinates would obey such an order even if it were given (they'd have to know their commander was under duress from getting a box full of body parts).

You don't need to identify all or even most for it to be a viable strategy you just need for it to be a significant death lottery for every dirt farmer who joins them and every person who takes on the mantle of leadership. Systematically going through their ranks and picking them off works. They need to know there are significant consequences not just on their own group but their people and way of life. Insurgencies thrive on ancillary support from their community. The people who have befriended or are related to jihadists and their ilk need to know that even being casually connected to them is toxic to their well being.

There is no moral high ground to argue about..it simply must be done when someone is directly challenging not just your way of life but your civilization as a whole.

It worked in history and it works now. To be honest you seem to be engaging in the same sort of rationalized self defeatism that's become en vogue in the western media and academia. It's the hands thrown up in the air "nothing we can do, pack it in!" response to something that has been efficiently dealt with in the past and can be dealt with now.

Quote:

They represent an ideology. You can't bomb away an idea.
Lastly, the heart of this matter is the Sunni - Shiite schism.
That is not going away.

The idea that you can't kill enough of them to make a difference is defeatist. That simply isn't true. At the heart of every insurgency is a propaganda war. When you play within their rules set and do what they expect you to do (sit idlely and donate money to corrupt regimes hoping for change) or (send in peacekeepers to sit around and get picked off) then they easily win. They are going to blame the west and those allied to the west regardless of the severity of the response taken by the west. The softer western response legitimizes their movement while they lose absolutely nothing in return.

They expect a certain amount of political pandering and acquiescence to their movement. They want the west to back out and maybe even come to a long term pandering arrangement like the Saudis did with the Wahhabists. This is a huge mistake.

[tomtud]

The woman who will be executed, I would've dressed her in a bikini, no hijab or naked. Feed her only pork. Put her in the general male population in the prison and let her experience a train. Then as bricktop says from snatch,feed her to the pigs. I would do all of this with any islamic terrorist. Feed em pork, make them listen to jewish and christian preachers from tv (billy graham) etc etc etc. Not so Jesus can save them, but just for spite. To make them uncomfortable.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

I would imagine this is the most-appropriate thread to drop this in.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-31124900

[Travesty]

I agree with some other posts saying if you want to win this sort of fight you need to go after friends and family of the leaders first, then kill the leaders.

You need to send a message to any up and coming guys that everyone they love will be murdered if they keep following the same path. Just killing them is not enough.

Their brothers, cousins, sons, and nephews will pick up the slack otherwise.