So, today it was confirmed that the Jordanian pilot captured by ISIS was burned alive.
Apparently they did it on January 3rd, and just released the video today.
Here is a link to the uncensored photos and video:

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/02/03...in-a-cage/

Predictably, social media, news comments, and pundits are alive with rage. Popular sentiments include desires for vengeance against these "foolish savages." People have said ISIS has fucked up and angered the well armed nation of Jordan that doesn't have the human rights induced restraint of the USA. People are saying that this is further evidence we need to fully engage and wipe out these evil monsters.

People are stupid and wrong. A strong Jordanian response is exactly what ISIS wants. They are trolling/attention whoring. It plays very well for their recruiting and world view. Dragging more countries into the morass, especially when those countries have their own religious issues and factions/instability is absolutely what they want.

Simply put, we shouldn't be in the Middle East at all. Shale oil is fine for the USA. The budget for NASA is about 18 Billion, the new military budget is 530 Billion with an extra 50 or 60 Billion requested for the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. Let's realign our priorities and not get trolled by ISIS. It's not the problem of the USA. Let the Shiites, Sunnis, and whoever else fight out their differences over whose imaginary friend is the coolest.



** On an unrelated note, I really really wish I knew how to edit video as well as they do. The technical value of the production seems very good to me. I wonder what they use.

who is we?

those muslims, such a peaceful bunch they are

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:28 PM)ChazKGB Wrote:  

who is we?

The USA. We've basically been in some degree of active combat there since I was a kid, and now I'm approaching my mid 30s.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:29 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

those muslims, such a peaceful bunch they are

Look up My Lai, it wasn't that long ago.
ISIS and Muslims do not have a monopoly on extreme and deliberate savagery.
People of all the major superstitions have plenty of horrific actions.
I wonder when the USA will learn its lesson and only fight wars of necessity.
Probably no time soon. Wars are a profitable business. And the rise of atomic weapons made large scale war between major powers very unlikely. So, wars of necessity are unlikely for a major nuclear power. That means we need wars of choice to flex our muscle and keep the military industrial complex well fed. And the more well fed it is, the more it gets used. The Pentagon has considerable momentum in its voracious consumption of resources. To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Quote:Quote:

People are stupid and wrong. A strong Jordanian response is exactly what ISIS wants. They are trolling/attention whoring. It plays very well for their recruiting and world view. Dragging more countries into the morass, especially when those countries have their own religious issues and factions/instability is absolutely what they want.

Sorry, this is complete nonsense. It reminds me of the President saying they were a bunch of amateurs. Weeks later they controlled large swathes of Syria and Iraq and were whipping the Kurds (who are tough as nails). Every time someone advocates ignoring a terrorist group after they attack and make gains I have to wonder what in the hell they're thinking.

This 'you're playing right into their hands if you respond' stuff and every variation thereof is extremely naive.

You don't defeat an enemy by ignoring them.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:35 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:29 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

those muslims, such a peaceful bunch they are

Look up My Lai, it wasn't that long ago.
ISIS and Muslims do not have a monopoly on extreme and deliberate savagery.
People of all the major superstitions have plenty of horrific actions.
I wonder when the USA will learn its lesson and only fight wars of necessity.
Probably no time soon. Wars are a profitable business. And the rise of atomic weapons made large scale war between major powers very unlikely. So, wars of necessity are unlikely for a major nuclear power. That means we need wars of choice to flex our muscle and keep the military industrial complex well fed. And the more well fed it is, the more it gets used. The Pentagon has considerable momentum in its voracious consumption of resources. To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.

One of those superstitions is the belief that Americans always have to do something and can do no wrong.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:38 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Sorry, this is complete nonsense. It reminds me of the President saying they were a bunch of amateurs. Weeks later they controlled large swathes of Syria and Iraq and were whipping the Kurds (who are tough as nails). Every time someone advocates ignoring a terrorist group after they attack and make gains I have to wonder what in the hell they're thinking.

This 'you're playing right into their hands if you respond' stuff and every variation thereof is extremely naive.

You don't defeat an enemy by ignoring them.

They are not our enemy. They are not our problem. The USA has an overwhelming military capacity to protect its own territory against any enemy. Using military force and endless amounts of lives and money in a Middle East quagmire does nothing to make us safer. We've tried it again and again.
Also, they are not a terrorist group. They are an organized guerrilla group with religious overtones that uses terror as one of many military tactics.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:41 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:38 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Sorry, this is complete nonsense. It reminds me of the President saying they were a bunch of amateurs. Weeks later they controlled large swathes of Syria and Iraq and were whipping the Kurds (who are tough as nails). Every time someone advocates ignoring a terrorist group after they attack and make gains I have to wonder what in the hell they're thinking.

This 'you're playing right into their hands if you respond' stuff and every variation thereof is extremely naive.

You don't defeat an enemy by ignoring them.

They are not our enemy. They are not our problem. The USA has an overwhelming military capacity to protect its territory against any enemy.
They are not a terrorist group. They are a guerrilla group.

You don't even know what terrorism is. Terrorism is a tactic. As soon as any group uses terroristic tactics they're terrorists. ISIS is a terrorist group.

Furthermore, they are our problem. We broke Iraq and we're still dedicated to breaking Syria. Us fucking up Iraq is the reason why they've succeeded. If we were an honorable nation we'd apologize to the people of Iraq and decisively help them and the other nations in the region wipe them out (which we are doing to some extent).

Owning up to your mistakes and trying to fix them is part of being a man.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:35 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:29 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

those muslims, such a peaceful bunch they are

Look up My Lai, it wasn't that long ago.
ISIS and Muslims do not have a monopoly on extreme and deliberate savagery.

Make an excel spreadsheet. Label it "Atrocious acts by organized military groups"
Make column One USA.
Make column two France.
Make column three Britian.
Make column three Germany (*slight giggle*)
Make column four ISIS
Make column five Al-qaeda
Make column six Taliban

Put an "1" in each column as you can find and reference atrocious acts by each individual group.

Tell me what the top three columns are, and what they have in common.

Feel free to change the groups, I'm sure you get the point.



not to mention that if your gonna fight a war, do everything you can do to make sure it's not on your home soil.

Furthermore comparing an incident like My Lai, which basically involved rogue units engaging in mass murder and was largely stopped by a courageous helicopter pilot and his men, to what ISIS routinely does is ridiculous.

Americans sometimes do heinous and terrible things, but in general we try not to and we usually try to prosecute the perpetrators. Whereas groups like ISIS do not give a fuck.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:49 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:35 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:29 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

those muslims, such a peaceful bunch they are

Look up My Lai, it wasn't that long ago.
ISIS and Muslims do not have a monopoly on extreme and deliberate savagery.

Make an excel spreadsheet. Label it "Atrocious acts by organized military groups"
Make column One USA.
Make column two France.
Make column three Britian.
Make column three Germany (*slight giggle*)
Make column four ISIS
Make column five Al-qaeda
Make column six Taliban

Put an "1" in each column as you can find and reference atrocious acts by each individual group.

Tell me what the top three columns are, and what they have in common.

Feel free to change the groups, I'm sure you get the point.



not to mention that if your gonna fight a war, do everything you can do to make sure it's not on your home soil.

No, I don't get your point.
Overall, the USA has a higher body count than everyone else on the list combined.
Do you have any idea what France did in Algeria in the 50s and early 60s? Their level of savagery was medieval.
Britain is the least guilty, but the RAF bombing of Dresden was still awful.
Also, Al Quaeda doesn't really fit with the others. It never had an organized army, just a bunch of loosely affiliated cells/franchises and one truly major attack, which was largely successful due to luck on their part and appalling incompetence by multiple US government agencies.
The Taliban and ISIS are probably the most sophisticated in terms of their use of force. They have both been successful in the face of a much better armed and funded foe. The chance of either posing a real threat to the USA is also approximately 0%.

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:49 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:35 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 04:29 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

those muslims, such a peaceful bunch they are

Look up My Lai, it wasn't that long ago.
ISIS and Muslims do not have a monopoly on extreme and deliberate savagery.

Make an excel spreadsheet. Label it "Atrocious acts by organized military groups"
Make column One USA.
Make column two France.
Make column three Britian.
Make column three Germany (*slight giggle*)
Make column four ISIS
Make column five Al-qaeda
Make column six Taliban

Put an "1" in each column as you can find and reference atrocious acts by each individual group.

Tell me what the top three columns are, and what they have in common.

Feel free to change the groups, I'm sure you get the point.



not to mention that if your gonna fight a war, do everything you can do to make sure it's not on your home soil.

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:02 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Furthermore comparing an incident like My Lai, which basically involved rogue units engaging in mass murder and was largely stopped by a courageous helicopter pilot and his men, to what ISIS routinely does is ridiculous.

Americans sometimes do heinous and terrible things, but in general we try not to and we usually try to prosecute the perpetrators. Whereas groups like ISIS literally do not give a fuck.

Point of clarification: where does the Iraq War fit in here?

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:04 PM)Grange Wrote:  

Point of clarification: where does the Iraq War fit in here?

An idiotic, wrongheaded military invasion and toppling of a dictator who kept his country mostly stable.

You can theorize about all the reasons you think it happened (oil, racism, military industrial complex, whatever) but historically what I described above is what it is.

What I don't like about the blame America first crowd is you can never win with them. They have a grievance no matter what you do. Prop up a dictator who keeps his country stable? "America supports dictators!" Topple them? "America is an imperialist nation!" Try to clean up the mess? "It's not our problem!" People start getting killed? "Look at what you did, America!"

They're usually left-wing political opportunists who pretend to be morally superior to everyone else which is, of course, complete horse shit. But that's politics. The dirtiest player wins the game.

It's hard imaging these guys existing in the time of Genghis Khan or Stalin. They would just get wiped out. They exist only because their adversaries are weak.

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:10 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

It's hard imaging these guys existing in the time of Genghis Khan or Stalin. They would just get wiped out. They exist only because their adversaries are weak.

Exactly right. Research what the Mongols did to the Hashashins.

Just awful.

People who join ISIS are like the SS or Cheka, enemies of the human race.

So Volando, your essentially saying that ISIS and the American military have the same moral compass?

Chechens are psychopaths. Them and crazy Albanians in Kosovo. They pool so much money from prostituting young girls, and use that same money to kill people. Insane people.

ISIS conducts gang rapes, which were recently reported by escapee survivor.

All those people need to be brought to justice.

But Islam is not an enemy. Most of the people are just members of the religion and try to live peaceful life. I hate thinking that people back them into the corner with stereotypes. Create a monster where none was.

@VVVV: Your "unrelated" endnote about the video's production quality tells a lot about your ignorance of the situation. It appears professional quality because it is. ISIS is that well funded and organized. You see triviality in an indicator of significance.

Jordan has been "in the morass" since Syrian refugees started flooding their country. Do you think that one of the Middle East's poorest (and more progressive) countries wants to be at war? Perhaps there are elements of ISIS capability, brutality, and geopolitical influence that you do not fully appreciate.

This only got out of control because of the proxy war going on in Syria. The fact of the matter is, if the U.S. were competent about regime change, then they would have never intervened in Syria. I can acknowledge other countries like Saudia Arabia, Turkey, and even Israel supporting the opposition to Bashar Al Assad; but the U.S. was clear about him having to go at the beginning.

Syria is a mess to the point where some people believe the country may turn into another Afghanistan or even Somalia. Too many different factions are fighting each other. A large chunk of the country does not have any power source. Thousands of people are starving. Massive crime waves are occur all the time. There are just too many issues here. Most importantly however is that there is no sign the war is ending anytime soon. The competent way or America to go about this would have been to intervene in 2011 or early 2012. I'm referring to ground troops and overt support, not the covert stuff that was going on. The wait was too long and you can see the results; another quagmire.

I honestly believe the U.S. should have just left Syria alone. The average "Moderate" Syrian does not support American troops in the region. They want Palestinian rights and do not recognize Israel. They want the Golan Heights back. They also want sharia. Again, these were the main people fighting Assad before groups like Al Nusra and the Islamic State took over. There was no clear strategy. That seems obvious to me.

Somebody will have to clean up ISIS eventually. Bashar's forces are incapable. They still haven't taken control of Aleppo from the rebels after these last few years. They move at a snails pace. They are even getting low on manpower to the point where they are forcibly conscripting young men to join. The Kurdish can hold their own but they don't have the numbers to do that. Besides, they are talking about an independent Syria Kurdistan similar to Iraqi Kurdistan. This will be a problem to some countries. ISIS has spread to Iraq and Lebanon and some of their fighters have killed people in Libya. It is spreading fast. There needs to be a joint effort to stop them. But who would those countries be?

Saudia Arabia and Iran currently have their proxies fighting there so they won't be allying together. Jordan alone isnt enough to stop ISIS even with a strong response. Israel won't do anything and if they tried, they would make things worse. Turkey would also make things worse if they intervened. The Iraqi security forces are trying but I don't think they can do it alone. Americans don't want another war. So seriously, who will stop them?

People are acting like ISIS are invincible. They are not.

This Jordan pilot had a gruesome death but it is what thousands of innocent Syrians have suffered at the hands of ISIS and other hardline Islamic groups. Where is the outrage for them? Men, women and children beheaded en-mass or fed into furnaces in one particular town in Syria. A butchers shop turned into a human death factory.

The west can claim how it hates ISIS but make no mistake, the powers that be knew these guys were coming and allowed them to get where they are now.

And yet US/NATO foreign policy wanted to destroy Syria, a secular country whose sovereign right to defend itself is being ignored because the head of state isn't a nice guy. I'm sure this insurgency wouldn't have reached its level if the US hadn't of trained and supplied the "rebels".

An armed and ready Syrian army on its border would have repelled these insurgents far better than that pathetic excuse for an Iraqi army. And lets not forget how Iran is mixed in with all of this and have provided more help than these US-led air strikes.

I would pay more taxes out of my paycheck for drones to just fly around and kill them more often then hopefully they already are.

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:10 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:04 PM)Grange Wrote:  

Point of clarification: where does the Iraq War fit in here?

An idiotic, wrongheaded military invasion and toppling of a dictator who kept his country mostly stable.

You can theorize about all the reasons you think it happened (oil, racism, military industrial complex, whatever) but historically what I described above is what it is.

What I don't like about the blame America first crowd is you can never win with them. They have a grievance no matter what you do. Prop up a dictator who keeps his country stable? "America supports dictators!" Topple them? "America is an imperialist nation!" Try to clean up the mess? "It's not our problem!" People start getting killed? "Look at what you did, America!"

They're usually left-wing political opportunists who pretend to be morally superior to everyone else which is, of course, complete horse shit. But that's politics. The dirtiest player wins the game.

What I meant specifically is does a wrongheaded invasion that ends up with hundreds of thousands dead count as atrocity or mass murder?

It does to ISIS's target audience.

Quote: (02-03-2015 06:12 PM)Grange Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:10 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote: (02-03-2015 05:04 PM)Grange Wrote:  

Point of clarification: where does the Iraq War fit in here?

An idiotic, wrongheaded military invasion and toppling of a dictator who kept his country mostly stable.

You can theorize about all the reasons you think it happened (oil, racism, military industrial complex, whatever) but historically what I described above is what it is.

What I don't like about the blame America first crowd is you can never win with them. They have a grievance no matter what you do. Prop up a dictator who keeps his country stable? "America supports dictators!" Topple them? "America is an imperialist nation!" Try to clean up the mess? "It's not our problem!" People start getting killed? "Look at what you did, America!"

They're usually left-wing political opportunists who pretend to be morally superior to everyone else which is, of course, complete horse shit. But that's politics. The dirtiest player wins the game.

What I meant specifically is does a wrongheaded invasion that ends up with hundreds of thousands dead count as atrocity or mass murder?

It does to ISIS's target audience.

No, it doesn't count as mass murder because initially two armed groups took each other on. The US military vs. the Iraqi Army and then various rebel groups and terrorists like AQI. It's called war. Unfortunately innocent people are caught in the crossfire in every war, no matter how "just" or unjust you think the war is.

However, we don't go out of our way to deliberately attack them.