[Enigma]

I'm talking, of course, about the forum's favorite sitcom, Seinfeld.

I've been watching through the seasons and just finished up four. But I can't decide who has the best game of the three main (male) characters.

At first glance, Kramer might be the pick. He pulls tons of girls and at one point, George makes a comment along the lines of him being able to "have sex without dating". Makes that lesbian chick fall in love with him. Kramer's frame is great and he has his own little reality. Also a bit of a bad boy/counter culture thing going.

But he also has some weak moments. For instance, when he breaks up with that girl but then begs for her to take him back, crying and on his knees. Also, in one of the last episodes of season 4, he falls in love with that handicap chick immediately, buys her a new wheelchair, then she dumps him because he's a "hipster doofus".

Jerry pulls the best quality by far. He seems to meet stunners everywhere. He's also got fairly high standards and a very don't-give-a-fuck attitude much of the time, like breaking up with the hottie from his gym because he thinks her breasts are fake.

But he can also be very supplicating at times. The incident where the girl hit-and-runs his neighbors car, and he pays the damages. Reading scripts with the dumb actress broad. Tracking the Calvin Klein model down at work when she doesn't return his calls.

Then there's George. Obviously he doesn't have the most obvious game, yet he pulls woman after woman, all of whom are much more attractive than him, despite being bald, fat, jobless, and completely neurotic.

I wouldn't call him a player per se and his internal game is terrible, but there's definitely something to be said about his abilities with women.

Overall, it's really hard to choose. If I had to pick, I'd probably say Jerry has the best overall game, given the quality he manages combined with his career success. But then Kramer has the most raw game, the ability to stimulate a woman's emotions and get her into bed immediately.

A good example is the girl that won't kiss Jerry after however many dates, but then Kramer ends up having sex with her because of "the snub" and his aggressiveness. Yet Jerry still consistently gets the hotter girls, and probably wouldn't go for half the girls Kramer hooks up with.

What do you guys think?

[RawGod]

Oddly to me, I remember women saying that they found Jerry unattractive. To me, he's an idealised version of a regular guy back in the '90s. He doesn't have to think about game, he just gets women "being himself". He doesn't pedestalize women, and he didn't have to psyche himself into being some kind of player. Just a moderately attractive guy in the big city, doing his thing. A normalcy which has become rare since then.

Kramer is a weirdo who quite plausibly pulls lower-quality girls through being uninhibited.

As for George, half the time the joke is that he's womanless and complaining about it, the other half of the time he gets a woman out of central casting who in real life he wouldn't be dating, and I think that's part of the joke too.

[Mister X]

Jerry. Because he has internal game plus fame and a little money.

Outside of a later episode where he completely falls apart over a girl (just for lulz) he really doesn't care.

This is all you need to know - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9W_jW4e_uY

George has no game at all. The complete antithesis of it, actually. He gets women because it's a sitcom and not reality.

[WestIndianArchie]

[jariel]

(01-21-2015 10:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

it's a sitcom and not reality.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Just a little theory, these characters are reflective of Freudian levels of behavior: ID, Ego, SuperEgo

Kramer/ID: Kramer is a pure, unaltered, hedonistic caveman. He runs caveman game and his erratic nature drives out the primal instinct in women. In the "Frozen Yogurt" episode, he seduces the chemist on by saying "test tubes, huh?", that's not a great opener by our standards. He loves smelling like the beach and cigars; Pheromone seduction. He had sex with Elaine's roommate to tribal music and dancing. His painting is described as a brute, uncivilized and unintelligent but with dignity. He cares not for what is etiquette or societal restraints, that's why he thought telling a girl she needed a nose job was a favor to her. He like natural things, fruit, and has conspiracy theories against governing societies and corporations. In "The Contest", he was the first one to masturbate. He's perfectly fine with stealing from Jerry, shoplifting and stealing gloves from hospitals. In "Dinner Party", he admits he doesn't carry his wallet because he can charm others into paying for him. In short, he is a modern day hedonistic caveman who lives by his own primal rules. That's why as men we love him, we understand Kramer not with our minds but our balls.

Jerry/Ego: Perfect balance between ID and SuperEgo. He's rational but isn't too neurotic. He's a typical man, and that's what he's meant to exemplify. He is sensitive to racial tensions, then buys a cigar store Indian. Seinfeld's comedy is all social critique and observation humor; what better way than to blend in?

George/SuperEgo: Neurotic, anxious, insecure and economical. In the "Red Dot", he buys a defect cashmere sweater to save face and money. He's driven hours to scream a comeback at his co-worker. He's anxious about his choice of foods in company. In "The Outing" he forces Jerry to act homosexual so he can dump his girlfriend with the moral advantage. He buys toxic wedding invitations to kill his fiance. His wallet is a foot thick because he will need every receipt and coupon. Every one of his actions are for personal gain, but intend to be "socially correct". Unfortunately, he always overextends and makes a fool out of himself. He is indifferent to nothing; everything is about his image. He creates prestigious personas to meet women; Art Vandalay the architect/importer/exporter? George is what an extremity of concern for societal restraints can do to a man.

Verdict:

George Constanza only gets so many notches for entertainment value, nobody like him is "supposed to get laid." The episodes where his neurotic behavior is overextended is a formula for awkward/cringe humor. Anomaly. No actual game.

Jerry Seinfeld is an observer and typical beta. He does expensive dinners and movie premiers. His redeeming value is his Tonight Show/NBC fame and his sense of humor.
Fame Game

Kosmo Kramer is one mysterious man. He's tall, lean, muscular and head full of hair. He has the ingenuity for the pull, and the criticisms for the push. He's free-spirited, a bad boy, lone-wolf and charismatic. Height Game, Cave-Man Game, Mysterious Game, Charm Game, Humor Game.

Agreed? Not to mention, he's already red-pill.

[Enigma]

(01-21-2015 10:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

George has no game at all. The complete antithesis of it, actually. He gets women because it's a sitcom and not reality.

Well, for one, we're just having fun here.

Two, the show and the characters are based on real people, George being Larry David. I know Elaine in particular is based on ex-gfs of both Jerry and Larry, and without going too far into Seinfeld trivia territory, I wouldn't doubt that many other characters were based on women from David's love life.

Part of the joke with George is that he's fairly social and charming in certain situations, but then he overthinks it and becomes a mess. For instance, saying things like "it's all downhill from here" after making a good first impression or convincing Jerry to pretend he's not funny so he doesn't overshadow George in front of the Asian lawyer chick.

The mere fact that he approaches women, understands certain aspects about dating, and has a sense of humor means he is beyond "no game at all". For example, when he's complaining to Jerry that he doesn't have "hand" in one relationship, then breaking up with the girl to get it back. Or how he talks about being good with women he doesn't like but bad with women he does like.

[Enigma]

(01-21-2015 11:36 PM)thyalmightyrhino Wrote:  

Verdict:

George Constanza only gets so many notches for entertainment value, nobody like him is "supposed to get laid." The episodes where his neurotic behavior is overextended is a formula for awkward/cringe humor. Anomaly. No actual game.

Jerry Seinfeld is an observer and typical beta. He does expensive dinners and movie premiers. His redeeming value is his Tonight Show/NBC fame and his sense of humor.
Fame Game

Kosmo Kramer is one mysterious man. He's tall, lean, muscular and head full of hair. He has the ingenuity for the pull, and the criticisms for the push. He's free-spirited, a bad boy, lone-wolf and charismatic. Height Game, Cave-Man Game, Mysterious Game, Charm Game, Humor Game.

Agreed?

Some really good points, but I don't really agree overall. Kramer, yeah. George, I talked about above.

For Jerry, I think his "total package" -- the money, success, car, etc. -- are part of his game. That's why he pulls higher quality than the jobless, fairly sloppy Kramer. Also, there are tons of examples of him being the opposite of beta with women.

Even if you look at him and Elaine, he just treats her like one of the guys. And when they start having sex again, she's the one who gets emotionally attached.

I just think the dating culture was different back then, which is why he does the dinner/movies type thing. If you notice, he always gets girls back to his place and pushes for sex fairly early. Not to mention that he still rejects marriage in his 30s.

[Bizet]

George, obviously.

[lycosidae]

They all have their own kind of game and show alpha qualities, though they have faults that make them human. If you want to see a beta sitcom, watch How I Met Your Mother -- the male characters are so beta they cast a gay to be the player on the show.

(01-21-2015 10:17 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

I'm talking, of course, about the forum's favorite sitcom, Seinfeld.

I've been watching through the seasons and just finished up four. But I can't decide who has the best game of the three main (male) characters.

At first glance, Kramer might be the pick. He pulls tons of girls and at one point, George makes a comment along the lines of him being able to "have sex without dating". Makes that lesbian chick fall in love with him. Kramer's frame is great and he has his own little reality. Also a bit of a bad boy/counter culture thing going.

But he also has some weak moments. For instance, when he breaks up with that girl but then begs for her to take him back, crying and on his knees. Also, in one of the last episodes of season 4, he falls in love with that handicap chick immediately, buys her a new wheelchair, then she dumps him because he's a "hipster doofus".

Jerry pulls the best quality by far. He seems to meet stunners everywhere. He's also got fairly high standards and a very don't-give-a-fuck attitude much of the time, like breaking up with the hottie from his gym because he thinks her breasts are fake.

But he can also be very supplicating at times. The incident where the girl hit-and-runs his neighbors car, and he pays the damages. Reading scripts with the dumb actress broad. Tracking the Calvin Klein model down at work when she doesn't return his calls.

Then there's George. Obviously he doesn't have the most obvious game, yet he pulls woman after woman, all of whom are much more attractive than him, despite being bald, fat, jobless, and completely neurotic.

I wouldn't call him a player per se and his internal game is terrible, but there's definitely something to be said about his abilities with women.

Overall, it's really hard to choose. If I had to pick, I'd probably say Jerry has the best overall game, given the quality he manages combined with his career success. But then Kramer has the most raw game, the ability to stimulate a woman's emotions and get her into bed immediately.

A good example is the girl that won't kiss Jerry after however many dates, but then Kramer ends up having sex with her because of "the snub" and his aggressiveness. Yet Jerry still consistently gets the hotter girls, and probably wouldn't go for half the girls Kramer hooks up with.

What do you guys think?

[JCIZZLE]

Jerry overall.

[MMM]

Kramer, of course, the natural, who has the "kavorka," a Latvian word for "the lure of the animal."

[Merenguero]

(01-21-2015 11:52 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(01-21-2015 10:53 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

George has no game at all. The complete antithesis of it, actually. He gets women because it's a sitcom and not reality.

Well, for one, we're just having fun here.

Two, the show and the characters are based on real people, George being Larry David. I know Elaine in particular is based on ex-gfs of both Jerry and Larry, and without going too far into Seinfeld trivia territory, I wouldn't doubt that many other characters were based on women from David's love life.

Part of the joke with George is that he's fairly social and charming in certain situations, but then he overthinks it and becomes a mess. For instance, saying things like "it's all downhill from here" after making a good first impression or convincing Jerry to pretend he's not funny so he doesn't overshadow George in front of the Asian lawyer chick.

The mere fact that he approaches women, understands certain aspects about dating, and has a sense of humor means he is beyond "no game at all". For example, when he's complaining to Jerry that he doesn't have "hand" in one relationship, then breaking up with the girl to get it back. Or how he talks about being good with women he doesn't like but bad with women he does like.

A few years ago, there was a guy named Mike Costanza, who claimed that the George character was based on him and that the show showed him in a negative light. He sued the shows creators for $100 million and was unsuccessful. The George character may or may not have been based on that guy.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(01-22-2015 03:36 AM)MMM Wrote:  

Kramer, of course, the natural, who has the "kavorka," a Latvian word for "the lure of the animal."

Kramer has more Game exemplified.

Jerry can pull more and better women because he is more good-looking, successful and has strong Game himself.

The question is who has most Game? Kramer has to have more in order to pull women of similar quality as Jerry. But since Jerry himself approaches women non-stop himself and drops them generally after a few days, I don't think that a Kramer could ever compete with a Jerry.

On the other hand Kramer has worse looks, no job, no known income, does not go on dates, mostly does not promise them anything and still gets laid consistently. His cost per notch must be under 5$ while Jerry goes out on traditional dinner dates, cinema dates and uses his wits, charm and Game.

Kramer wins hands down - you simply cannot beat his Skittles Game - in fact he would probably beat the Skittles Guy since he spends nothing on his women - not even a bag of Skittles.

[talldarkandhairy]

All three get far more and higher quality women than they ever could in real life. Because Seinfeld is much sharper than anything Hollywood usually churns out, it tries to make an in-joke out of it rather than get you to actually believe that a beautiful girl really falls for a stuttering overweight nerd just because he's been in love with her for ages.

Jerry - being decent looking, tall and financially successful - would have some chance of doing as well in real life.

The other two are lost causes. Kramer is actually deranged and somewhat frightening. It's only Jerry's moderating effect that makes his behaviour look amusing.

[tallandblonde]

(01-22-2015 12:44 AM)Bizet Wrote:  

George, obviously.

One of my all time favorite episodes. All George has to do is the opposite of what his instinct says and he gets the gf and a good job.

[Enigma]

(01-22-2015 04:41 AM)Merenguero Wrote:  

A few years ago, there was a guy named Mike Costanza, who claimed that the George character was based on him and that the show showed him in a negative light. He sued the shows creators for $100 million and was unsuccessful. The George character may or may not have been based on that guy.

They took his name from Costanza, but the character and his mannerisms were based on Larry David.

[lowside]

Jerry is a natural, so he pulls decent quality without much effort.

George is ugly and therefore has to put in the work. He makes his approaches and pulls from time to time. Not as good quality as Jerry though.

Kramer is this crazy guy that does his own thing without caring too much about what the ladies think. He attracts a very specific type of girl that would only be attracted to such a guy. Uknowingly he is a niche player.

[Seth_Rose]

I think it's pretty obvious:

[civpro]

There's the fantasy of TV, and then there's reality. Let's talk about reality.

Jerry. Most handsome, most successful, a mini-celebrity, funny, charismatic, outgoing, "normal". He's the winner and legit player potential as a given.

Kramer. Ugly old gangly weirdo. Would either go without or pair up with a matched ugly old tall woman. That said, he does have the benefit of being highly dimorphic: tall, hairy, wiry. Combine some kind of fame-based exposure (as Kramer is wont to stumble into) with this wolf-man/stalker thing and you might be a decent looking girl or two who fetishizes it cling onto him. You saw this with the twitter love for Trevor from GTA V, lol.

George. Fat, bald, short, old, neurotic. A veritable subhuman. While I do think that Jason Alexander has good facial bone structure, especially in the eye area, it is obscured by all these negatives. George would either be incel or married to a plump short ugly ball of a woman. He would benefit from roids and a makeover.

[Velebit]

(01-22-2015 07:55 AM)tallandblonde Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:44 AM)Bizet Wrote:  

George, obviously.

One of my all time favorite episodes. All George has to do is the opposite of what his instinct says and he gets the gf and a good job.

Opposite George Game

[Kamikaze]

A lot of great points already.

It seems some of us are favoring Kramer. I do believe he has good game. The kavorka is real. He's a charismatic dude and makes people feel good. He's also easily the best looking, thanks to his height and frame. No quarrels here.

But some are only giving Jerry fame-game credit. And we also don't credit him enough for lifestyle game. Don't you realize what Jerry is famous for? He's a successful comedian, and he does a specific type of comedy that is especially useful for game: he makes fun of everyday situations. Just think about his rambling skillz. He stands and talks about stupid shit in front of crowds for a living. You know the line we've all use to get into a girl's apartment at the end of a date... "can I use your bathroom?" Jerry came up with it! Jerry has the perfect mind, and temperament, for game. He is a true, learned player who surpassed Kramer. Kramer runs on instinct, Jerry on reason.

And George. George is the opposite of IDGAF, hence 0 game, except when he has sunk so low that he stops giving a fuck and goes against all his instincts. It's too bad because neuroticism is not always bad for game. He has a good mind for detail. The best example is when he sets up a situation for Jerry to achieve the impossible roommate switch by telling Jerry to ask his girlfriend for a threesome with her roommate, a truly ingenious plan. George would also not look bad at around 12% body fat, some muscles, and a shaved head, as hinted above. He is simply too neurotic to function normally, a true sociopath. If he could channel that sociopathy into something productive, he could do better, because he has an underrated mind.

In short,

Kramer = Natural
Jerry = Innovative Casanova
George = Sociopath, with hidden potential

Curiously, if you watch interviews of all of them in real life, including Larry David? I think LD wins HANDS DOWN on raw charisma, but Jerry still has that "salesman" quality that gives him the edge in overall game.

http://comediansincarsgettingcoffee.com/...-a-pancake

[Octavian]

(01-22-2015 03:36 AM)MMM Wrote:  

Kramer, of course, the natural, who has the "kavorka," a Latvian word for "the lure of the animal."

Right. Kramer's the natural with the Kavorka. Jerry has got generally nice guy game +an interesting status job that makes him the center of attention. George is everyman, the guy who's got to work hard for every bang and only has a tenuous hold at best on any girl.

[Tuthmosis]

I haven't even read the posts in this thread yet, and I can already tell I'm going to love it.

[MrXY]

Can't believe y'all are forgetting one of the most game aware episodes, in which Costanza becomes Bad Boy George

[video=youtube] http://youtu.be/CB1Pij54gTw[/video]