CIA torture report published
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“The barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity.” - Napoleon
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“The barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity.” - Napoleon
"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
Americans should be more worried about socialist Obamacare and immigration executive action than how some terrorist is being treated at Gitmo.
Quote: (12-09-2014 11:05 PM)Soberane Wrote:
Americans should be more worried about socialist Obamacare and immigration executive action than how some terrorist is being treated at Gitmo.
Not necessarily. The torturing in Gitmo foreshadows a State that would torture its own citizens unless its stalled. Just look at the militarization of police and the attempt to prosecute thoughtcrime. Imagine where we might be in another decade or two.
Quote: (12-09-2014 11:05 PM)Soberane Wrote:
Americans should be more worried about socialist Obamacare and immigration executive action than how some terrorist is being treated at Gitmo.
I'm not some bleeding-heart who gives a shit about the well-being of a person who plots to kill Americans. However:
-Not everyone tortured was a terrorist. Some people are wrongly detained.
-Many believe torture is ineffective at obtaining accurate info to thwart potential attacks.
-This kind of thing could cause American POWs to be treated less humanely.
Does anyone know the dollar amount wasted on socialized healthcare per year vs. the dollar amount wasted on starting wars with a socialized security force per year? I am curious to see how the numbers compare.
Quote: (12-09-2014 11:49 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:
Does anyone know the dollar amount wasted on socialized healthcare per year vs. the dollar amount wasted on starting wars with a socialized security force per year? I am curious to see how the numbers compare.
One thing is for sure though that whichever number comes out to be higher the American taxpayer is still the loser no matter what.
This thread involves a serious subject and deserves careful consideration. These two articles go into great detail on the extent and duration of the CIA's torture program:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30401100
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/20...toyou.html
The reports are revealing. They show, among other things:
*Systematic CIA lies to Congress about its program.
*A lengthy list of torture techniques, including sleep deprivation, physical torture of various forms, and denial of the most basic human rights.
*A secret rendition program to get around various US laws, whereby the CIA would outsource its more brutal torture to accomplices around the world.
All in all, this is a shocking indictment. I am starting to draw uncomfortable conclusions when I connect this report with what we already know is part of the US domestic culture:
*Massive NSA surveillance over all of us.
*Deliberate erosion of our privacy rights with the collaboration of "Big Data", cell phone companies, and other big business entities.
*Criminalization of nearly everything.
*Silencing of dissent with SJW talking points
*Deliberate program to undermine masculine identity and culture in the US
*Increasing evidence of police militarization
*Loss of opportunities for upward mobility
We can't avoid looking at reality in the face any longer. The US is transitioning into a full-fledged authoritarian system. Totalitarianism is not a pipe dream: it can happen here, if it hasn't already happened.
It doesn't matter against whom the CIA torture program was directed. "But they were terrorists!" someone might say. That does not matter. When it comes to talking about systems of control and authority, what matters is capabilities, not intentions. Intentions can change on a dime. Yesterday it was directed against some Afghans. Tomorrow it will be directed against citizens, and called something else.
Q
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30401100
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/20...toyou.html
The reports are revealing. They show, among other things:
*Systematic CIA lies to Congress about its program.
*A lengthy list of torture techniques, including sleep deprivation, physical torture of various forms, and denial of the most basic human rights.
*A secret rendition program to get around various US laws, whereby the CIA would outsource its more brutal torture to accomplices around the world.
All in all, this is a shocking indictment. I am starting to draw uncomfortable conclusions when I connect this report with what we already know is part of the US domestic culture:
*Massive NSA surveillance over all of us.
*Deliberate erosion of our privacy rights with the collaboration of "Big Data", cell phone companies, and other big business entities.
*Criminalization of nearly everything.
*Silencing of dissent with SJW talking points
*Deliberate program to undermine masculine identity and culture in the US
*Increasing evidence of police militarization
*Loss of opportunities for upward mobility
We can't avoid looking at reality in the face any longer. The US is transitioning into a full-fledged authoritarian system. Totalitarianism is not a pipe dream: it can happen here, if it hasn't already happened.
It doesn't matter against whom the CIA torture program was directed. "But they were terrorists!" someone might say. That does not matter. When it comes to talking about systems of control and authority, what matters is capabilities, not intentions. Intentions can change on a dime. Yesterday it was directed against some Afghans. Tomorrow it will be directed against citizens, and called something else.
Q
We've tortured prisoners for centuries. This is nothing new.
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:04 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:
We've tortured prisoners for centuries. This is nothing new.
Hotwheels is back! Haven't seen you check in for a while, H...
And yes, torture has a long history. Absolutely.
But so too has every evil an extensive lineage. Longevity confers no moral value to torture.
The US, almost alone among nations, thinks of itself as uniquely moral or special. It has a long tradition of political democracy and freedom. And what is happening here flies in the face of that tradition. It is important for me to express an opinion against it.
If I had been a CIA employee, and had been ordered to do those things, I would have resigned. There are limits to things. There is a moral structure to the universe, a sense of what is acceptable and what is not. And this is just beyond the pale.
To its credit, the political system here in the US exposed it. That is the only positive thing to come out of this. I doubt this sort of soul searching would be done in Asia or Africa.
But if we claim to hold ourselves to a higher standard, then we need to call things what they are.
I watch with a deep sense of unease the slow, steady slide of the US's political and social culture into a pit of ignorance and tyranny. And this torture scandal ties into that.
Yo QC, are you sure it's not much like trends in violence where we simply have a larger magnifying glass by which to view the world?
I'm sure police brutality, torture, and other injustices were worst in the past than now. I feel like the proliferation of cell phones, internet, and other technologies, have really helped distribute the power among netizens as oppose to take it away.
In many ways, being so connected serves as a major deterrence for bad behavior. One cell phone video or leaked document could mean the end of your career and reputation.
This is a power that normal citizens have, not just the government. Really we're lucky a few ambitious and quirky academics brought along the idea of the internet all the while selling to the government that by having a distributed node network, we'd be safer from a nuclear attack. That's how they got funding.
But you never hear anyone say, man I'm so grateful the govt created this awesome way of life where I can mingle with like minded people that isn't limited by physical proximity.
I'm sure police brutality, torture, and other injustices were worst in the past than now. I feel like the proliferation of cell phones, internet, and other technologies, have really helped distribute the power among netizens as oppose to take it away.
In many ways, being so connected serves as a major deterrence for bad behavior. One cell phone video or leaked document could mean the end of your career and reputation.
This is a power that normal citizens have, not just the government. Really we're lucky a few ambitious and quirky academics brought along the idea of the internet all the while selling to the government that by having a distributed node network, we'd be safer from a nuclear attack. That's how they got funding.
But you never hear anyone say, man I'm so grateful the govt created this awesome way of life where I can mingle with like minded people that isn't limited by physical proximity.
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:43 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:04 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:
We've tortured prisoners for centuries. This is nothing new.
Hotwheels is back! Haven't seen you check in for a while, H...
And yes, torture has a long history. Absolutely.
But so too has every evil an extensive lineage. Longevity confers no moral value to torture.
The US, almost alone among nations, thinks of itself as uniquely moral or special. It has a long tradition of political democracy and freedom. And what is happening here flies in the face of that tradition. It is important for me to express an opinion against it.
If I had been a CIA employee, and had been ordered to do those things, I would have resigned. There are limits to things. There is a moral structure to the universe, a sense of what is acceptable and what is not. And this is just beyond the pale.
To its credit, the political system here in the US exposed it. That is the only positive thing to come out of this. I doubt this sort of soul searching would be done in Asia or Africa.
But if we claim to hold ourselves to a higher standard, then we need to call things what they are.
I watch with a deep sense of unease the slow, steady slide of the US's political and social culture into a pit of ignorance and tyranny. And this torture scandal ties into that.
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:43 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:
The US, almost alone among nations, thinks of itself as uniquely moral or special. It has a long tradition of political democracy and freedom. And what is happening here flies in the face of that tradition. It is important for me to express an opinion against it.
Why do Americans see their country as special in that regard? Greece had democracy 2000 years ago. France has had democracy longer than America. England has had it for about 400 years. In fact the vast majority of countries are democratic , there's nothing unique about it. In fact when you look that slavery was only abolished in America later than serfdom was abolished in Russia you wonder where the moral self satisfaction comes from.
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:43 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:04 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:
We've tortured prisoners for centuries. This is nothing new.
Hotwheels is back! Haven't seen you check in for a while, H...
And yes, torture has a long history. Absolutely.
But so too has every evil an extensive lineage. Longevity confers no moral value to torture.
The US, almost alone among nations, thinks of itself as uniquely moral or special. It has a long tradition of political democracy and freedom. And what is happening here flies in the face of that tradition. It is important for me to express an opinion against it.
If I had been a CIA employee, and had been ordered to do those things, I would have resigned. There are limits to things. There is a moral structure to the universe, a sense of what is acceptable and what is not. And this is just beyond the pale.
To its credit, the political system here in the US exposed it. That is the only positive thing to come out of this. I doubt this sort of soul searching would be done in Asia or Africa.
But if we claim to hold ourselves to a higher standard, then we need to call things what they are.
I watch with a deep sense of unease the slow, steady slide of the US's political and social culture into a pit of ignorance and tyranny. And this torture scandal ties into that.
Hey QC. Yeah, back for now. Good to see you're still bringing it.
The only point I was making is that this is not some slide into archaic methodology that signals a coming authoritarianism at home. It's always gone on in past conflicts.
Hell, Americans shot plenty of prisoners in WWII. Just because a man is American does not mean his base instincts are removed at birth. The difference now is the news reaches a wider audience, and more importantly, that audience can discuss and comment on it with not only their neighbors but with people around the world.
It's also much easier for the media to take the publics "tempurature" on any given subject.
Quote: (12-10-2014 01:41 AM)The Ligurian Wrote:
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:43 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:
The US, almost alone among nations, thinks of itself as uniquely moral or special. It has a long tradition of political democracy and freedom. And what is happening here flies in the face of that tradition. It is important for me to express an opinion against it.
Why do Americans see their country as special in that regard? Greece had democracy 2000 years ago. France has had democracy longer than America. England has had it for about 400 years. In fact the vast majority of countries are democratic , there's nothing unique about it. In fact when you look that slavery was only abolished in America later than serfdom was abolished in Russia you wonder where the moral self satisfaction comes from.
Good points, Ligurian. (Are you Genoese, I wonder?)
Every young country believes itself to be unique and special. To compare the New World to the Old is like comparing a teething infant to a wizened sage.
The average American is admittedly an ignominious, truculent clown, ignorant not only of his own history but of that of most of the world. Middle America is a hive of Babbitt-esque figures, smug in their own sense of superiority but lacking in real refinement.
The lack of aggressive neighbors in its borders, the protection offered by two oceans, and the bounty afforded by an unspoiled wilderness gave the US major advantages over the Old World.
If it is arrogant and foolish, it is forgivable to some extent.
On the other hand, don't get too smug over there in Europe, either. There are plenty of assholes in Europe, too. More than enough, in fact, to go around.
I've found most Europeans to be quite ignorant of America. Most of them do have a superficial knowledge of what they "think" American culture is, but this often proves on examination to be only a superficial level of awareness. To really know a country, you have to know its literature, history, and language, and you must have visited there. Most Europeans haven't done their homework on America. When you talk to them, you can just feel it.
The worst point about the torture depicted in these reports is not in just the act itself - it's certainly vile but it's no worse than that of many other countries - but the immense hypocrisy displayed when this same USA goes around lecturing the world on human rights, ways to run a society and so on.
It's impossible to have respect for such a country and, consequently, to ever view its intentions as genuine and positive. It would be like Saddam Hussein touring the world promoting a ban on chemical weapons. No one would ever take him seriously.
Come to think of it, that already happened...
It's impossible to have respect for such a country and, consequently, to ever view its intentions as genuine and positive. It would be like Saddam Hussein touring the world promoting a ban on chemical weapons. No one would ever take him seriously.
Come to think of it, that already happened...
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It's true there has always been torture, as Hotwheels said. Prisoners were tortured by waterboarding in the Philippine War, WW II, and Vietnam. There were some prosecutions of what were regarded as rogue soldiers because of it, but also many blind eyes to it.
What is different about this time, and indicative of the trend towards tyranny that QC described, is that this time they tried to make it legal this time. It was authorized from the top in a formal system. It may have also been used to torture admissions out of prisoners to be used to justify the Iraq war.
It removed the USA's moral authority to speak about human rights violations for a generation.
I downloaded the report, plan to look at it later.
What is different about this time, and indicative of the trend towards tyranny that QC described, is that this time they tried to make it legal this time. It was authorized from the top in a formal system. It may have also been used to torture admissions out of prisoners to be used to justify the Iraq war.
It removed the USA's moral authority to speak about human rights violations for a generation.
I downloaded the report, plan to look at it later.
Quote: (12-09-2014 11:18 PM)monster Wrote:
Quote: (12-09-2014 11:05 PM)Soberane Wrote:
Americans should be more worried about socialist Obamacare and immigration executive action than how some terrorist is being treated at Gitmo.
Not necessarily. The torturing in Gitmo foreshadows a State that would torture its own citizens unless its stalled. Just look at the militarization of police and the attempt to prosecute thoughtcrime. Imagine where we might be in another decade or two.
The problem is, the Democrats who pretend to be outraged by this are the very same people who strongly supported the NSA spying and even worse the Indefinite Detention Act. This faux outrage by them after these moves towards a police state is laughable at best.
All the while they are digging for unlawful activity by the CIA, and finding nothing, they help cover up unlawful activity in the IRS and the EPA, which is already being used to target and harass Americans.
Some information just doesn't belong in the public domain. This is the CIA, of course they push the boundaries of their legal authority, and the public (or at least the government) should be made aware of their activities. But that doesn't mean Joe Couchgeneral in Columbus, Ohio should know which specific interrogation techniques are used.
Remember, these are legitimate threats. They don't interrogate Iraqi farmers who plant IED's on the road, they're high level, high value terrorists with vast insight into the organizations we're fighting against. With torture, there's at least a chance they'll divulge information, rather than having zero chance at all by not torturing them.
There were two young guys in the 101st captured near Baghdad during the height of the insurgency. They were tortured without mercy (legitimate torture, like having body parts chopped off, rather than being exposed to loud music or kept up past their bedtime). Their dicks and balls were shoved into their mouths while they were still alive. When they were finally killed, the insurgents crammed artillery shells into their chest cavities so any American troops recovering them would also be killed.
And the public is complaining we lose the moral highground by stripping prisoners and making them run through a hallway while getting slapped? Research what our enemies do to us, including state enemies, make a comparison, then pass judgement.
Just as internet access can hardly be considered a "human right" when half the worlds population wakes up and eats dirt for breakfast, this needs to be put into proper perspective; what do our enemies do, what should we do against it?
Remember, these are legitimate threats. They don't interrogate Iraqi farmers who plant IED's on the road, they're high level, high value terrorists with vast insight into the organizations we're fighting against. With torture, there's at least a chance they'll divulge information, rather than having zero chance at all by not torturing them.
There were two young guys in the 101st captured near Baghdad during the height of the insurgency. They were tortured without mercy (legitimate torture, like having body parts chopped off, rather than being exposed to loud music or kept up past their bedtime). Their dicks and balls were shoved into their mouths while they were still alive. When they were finally killed, the insurgents crammed artillery shells into their chest cavities so any American troops recovering them would also be killed.
And the public is complaining we lose the moral highground by stripping prisoners and making them run through a hallway while getting slapped? Research what our enemies do to us, including state enemies, make a comparison, then pass judgement.
Just as internet access can hardly be considered a "human right" when half the worlds population wakes up and eats dirt for breakfast, this needs to be put into proper perspective; what do our enemies do, what should we do against it?
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:01 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:
It doesn't matter against whom the CIA torture program was directed. "But they were terrorists!" someone might say. That does not matter. When it comes to talking about systems of control and authority, what matters is capabilities, not intentions. Intentions can change on a dime. Yesterday it was directed against some Afghans. Tomorrow it will be directed against citizens, and called something else.
Q
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Ok back to the torture side. Some of the stuff they did hardly seems so bad as other forms of torture. For instance: loud music, sleep deprivation, keeping them without food (they did get water and the protein shake Ensure, to keep them alive but stimulate hunger), pushing into walls, humiliation, and water boarding. That list seems pretty weak, but yes, is a form of torture.
Can anyone here think of any better ways to extract information from a potential hostile enemy? I'm actually curious about this.
Can anyone here think of any better ways to extract information from a potential hostile enemy? I'm actually curious about this.
Quote: (12-10-2014 12:01 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:
It doesn't matter against whom the CIA torture program was directed. "But they were terrorists!" someone might say. That does not matter. When it comes to talking about systems of control and authority, what matters is capabilities, not intentions. Intentions can change on a dime. Yesterday it was directed against some Afghans. Tomorrow it will be directed against citizens, and called something else.
Q
The American Conservative: Torture is also Big Government
Quote:Quote:
But the case for limited government is weakened when those making it ignore or defend torture, testicle-crushing, and waterboarding, complaining only about big government when someone proposes spending taxpayer dollars to help people. And I say that as someone who has written a book arguing that seemingly benign and compassionate government spending can curtail individual freedom.
It is difficult to take someone seriously who thinks the imprisonment of human beings in cages and the behavior of government agents with guns have less impact on personal freedom than the capital-gains tax rate.
Quote:Quote:
Can anyone here think of any better ways to extract information from a potential hostile enemy? I'm actually curious about this.
If you look at torture historically, the enemy must accept that his life will be ended at the hands of his captors. Only then can he make a conscious decision to either prolong the inevitable through excrutiating pain, or end it quickly and with mercy by divulging what he knows.
Guantanamo prisoners know that they'll face tough times, but that they'll never be killed. They know the CIA can only get away with so much. For them, it's a waiting game, and they have nothing to lose, so they don't rat.
And that's precisely why interrogation hasn't been effective in the war against Islamic terrorists. If these guys know they're going to die, and fear for their families lives as well, they'll squeak the first chance they get.
"The program allowed the psychologists to assess their own work — they gave it excellent grades — and to charge a daily rate of $1,800 each, four times the pay of other interrogators, to waterboard detainees. Dr. Mitchell and Dr. Jessen later started a company that took over the C.I.A. program from 2005 until it was closed in 2009. The C.I.A. paid it $81 million, plus $1 million to protect the company from legal liability."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/world/....html?_r=0
That's just fucked up. Even for the USA, even for the CIA, that seems particularly cynical.
Folks, this is why we can't have extra legal death/torture squads. They tend to be run by people who care about absolutely nothing but themselves (not that uncommon), AND have no qualms whatsoever about using any and all methods to get there. True sociopathy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/world/....html?_r=0
That's just fucked up. Even for the USA, even for the CIA, that seems particularly cynical.
Folks, this is why we can't have extra legal death/torture squads. They tend to be run by people who care about absolutely nothing but themselves (not that uncommon), AND have no qualms whatsoever about using any and all methods to get there. True sociopathy.
"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
An important point in Volando's Napoleon quote, reiterated in this new report, seems to be getting lost: the torture didn't work.
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