[Moma]

Are there any of you who are extroverts and/or salesmen and need help with game? If so, why? I strongly believe that there is a correlation between game and being an extrovert. I think that the learning curve between acquiring game is less steep for an extrovert and a salesperson.

This is because game involves recognition of emotions (the lizards) and tweaking those emotions accordingly for gains.

As an extrovert, your emotional energy is usually high and with high energy, you create an abundance. Even if you are a beta white knight, with knowledge of game (the truth) you can manipulate that abundance to supplement you in a favourable sense.

So to conclude, my question is: Why would any of the true extroverts here or salesmen (face to face salesmen not over the phone jesters) have an issue with the actualisation and application of game?

[AntiTrace]

Because as a salesman you can always fall back on the excuse that maybe the customer just didn't like the product your selling.

In game, that product is you, and that scares a lot of people.

[PrimeTime32]

As a guy who has crushed it in sales and been called a natural born salesman. I come off a lot better in person than I could ever hope to achieve in writing or over the internet. I personally have found that I'm much more comfortable talking to women or people I have no physical attraction to than women who I'm actually attracted to. It has taken me a long time and I'm still working on it to get over this and this has probably been my biggest mental block. If you have advice or any tips to get over it then I'm more than welcome to hear it.

[AntiTrace]

(10-29-2014 06:31 PM)PrimeTime32 Wrote:  

As a guy who has crushed it in sales and been called a natural born salesman. I come off a lot better in person than I could ever hope to achieve in writing or over the internet. I personally have found that I'm much more comfortable talking to women or people I have no physical attraction to than women who I'm actually attracted to. It has taken me a long time and I'm still working on it to get over this and this has probably been my biggest mental block. If you have advice or any tips to get over it then I'm more than welcome to hear it.

curious, why do you think that is?

[Moma]

(10-29-2014 06:31 PM)PrimeTime32 Wrote:  

As a guy who has crushed it in sales and been called a natural born salesman. I come off a lot better in person than I could ever hope to achieve in writing or over the internet. I personally have found that I'm much more comfortable talking to women or people I have no physical attraction to than women who I'm actually attracted to. It has taken me a long time and I'm still working on it to get over this and this has probably been my biggest mental block. If you have advice or any tips to get over it then I'm more than welcome to hear it.

You have to objectify lizards. When you put them on a pedestal that's where the problem lies. If you can visualise them as creatures..the same as any other..that's where you can work the magic. Dissect them for what they are. They are not angels. When you personalise them, that's when the clouded feelings kick in.

I remember when I was younger, I grabbed a porno mag from the Indian shop. Took it home and went through it. I used to be this guy engrossed in fantasy. I saw a gorgeous lizard in there. An angel on the first page. I turned the page. The same lizard had a man in her mouth and another in her from the back. At the climax of it all, she was dp'd by the dudes.

It's not easy, bro but if it were, you would have another obstacle in life. If you want to lay down an approach list, do so and we can dissect it. I'm planning on doing one myself (an approach list and mindset prior to, during and after).

[PrimeTime32]

While typing this I didn't get a chance to read your response AntiTrace but I generally agree with your statement. One part is work and you are selling a product but the other part also includes is selling yourself which people underrate because people usually won't buy things from people they don't trust. The weird thing is that I usually nail job interviews and I sell myself well. Then again that is professional and I guess I'm able to compartmentalize in the extreme sense. As I've said previously this is/ was a huge mental block but using the numbers game has helped me get over that fear of rejection/ failure mostly but i feel like I'm not maximizing my potential still.

[PrimeTime32]

Haha Moma I couldn't agree more man. Over the years I have learned to do this but still there's that voice in the back of your head due to all of that conditioning. I'm in my late 20's and everyday that voice becomes more and more faint. Of course this forum has helped a lot.

[Moma]

(10-29-2014 07:12 PM)PrimeTime32 Wrote:  

Haha Moma I couldn't agree more man. Over the years I have learned to do this but still there's that voice in the back of your head due to all of that conditioning. I'm in my late 20's and everyday that voice becomes more and more faint. Of course this forum has helped a lot.

Prime if I recall, you are a Naija man residing in London, abi? Initially in London, I was meek but forced to really up the ante off of road game. Carnival was boot camp for me.
Maybe try 3 chirps a day? if you do 3 chirps a day consistent for 3 months, I'm sure you will be very different.

[PrimeTime32]

Moma that is a great goal and I will achieve it. Is it cool if I PM you my results? Warning it'll be ugly at first.

[Moma]

(10-29-2014 07:33 PM)PrimeTime32 Wrote:  

Moma that is a great goal and I will achieve it. Is it cool if I PM you my results? Warning it'll be ugly at first.

You certainly can PM me the results. Don't worry about the buttas, beauty can often begin with uglification. As you get comfortable, your natural salesman skills will come in and you will get decent ROI's. They say in America to always ask for the sale.
So with these lizards, if it's road game, ask for the sale (number).
If it's nightclub, invite them back (if you are into SNL). If not, ask for number and set up date. I'm not sure how high the flake rates are in London but some say, call as opposed to texting. Phone calls telegraph boldness and masculinity and texting is effeminate.
Limit the texting to confirmations such as 'Yes, I'm on my way now' or 'The address is blah blah SE19 etc".

If you follow those principles, I'm CERTAIN the 3 chirps a day will pay out.

[Pinocchio]

Most of the best salesman are actually introverted. Read quite by Susan Cain. Most of world's greatest inventions/ products/ business and world leaders are introverted or created by introverted men.

[GLethal85]

I've been in car sales since 2010 and have it pretty down pat. I know EXACTLY how to talk to customers, how to get them excited, how to find the right car for them and how to make the entire process smooth.

I can get them to pay attention to me, I can lead them and i can DEMOLISH just about any objection they throw at me.

The less exciting truth about sales is that it's honestly a lot of making phone calls, writing emails and setting appointments. However my phone voice is ridiculous. I sell plenty of cars over the phone too.

Anyway...

Women are a different ball game. They are not coming up to me needing something that I can help them with. There's too much shit to overcome like cell phone and friends cockblocking. I put myself out there and don't get much back. Online dating too complete waste. Flake city.

Also I work so I have to rely on nightgame. I work every Saturday from 9 - 5 in the car biz and at the end of the day im tired. Connecticut in general is pretty shitty for game as well

I am an awesome salesman and I have shit performance with women. I would describe myself as an introvert who can turn on extrovert switch and happily enjoy myself.

[TheFinalEpic]

Being an introvert/extrovert has nothing to do with your ability to be a social human being. It has to do with how does one recharge; if you use energy to be around people, you are an introvert; If you gain energy from being around others, you are an extrovert. Everyone can learn to be a social person, but being out in public either sucks your energy or provides you with it.

[LeBeau]

(10-29-2014 05:50 PM)Moma Wrote:  

So to conclude, my question is: Why would any of the true extroverts here or salesmen (face to face salesmen not over the phone jesters) have an issue with the actualisation and application of game?

This shows ignorance regarding sales, many jobs still require the ability to sell over the phone.

The same way you can lose a girl or a potential client with your body language/presence in person, you can also ruin your chances over the phone with your voice and conversation abilities.

There's too many generalizations in the opening post in this thread for it to be truly applicable.

[Vaun]

(10-31-2014 11:18 PM)LeBeau Wrote:  

(10-29-2014 05:50 PM)Moma Wrote:  

So to conclude, my question is: Why would any of the true extroverts here or salesmen (face to face salesmen not over the phone jesters) have an issue with the actualisation and application of game?

This shows ignorance regarding sales, many jobs still require the ability to sell over the phone.

The same way you can lose a girl or a potential client with your body language/presence in person, you can also ruin your chances over the phone with your voice and conversation abilities.

There's too many generalizations in the opening post in this thread for it to be truly applicable.

I would agree. Usually the most critical moments in the sales process happen on the phone when discussing details around closing a deal(dollars, legal, work performed, etc). Face to face sales where you 'close' the deal and get someone to pay immediately or sign immediately is just transactional sales, i.e. low dollar, small deal size. More used car sales than selling commercial real estate.

[Moma]

(10-31-2014 11:18 PM)LeBeau Wrote:  

(10-29-2014 05:50 PM)Moma Wrote:  

So to conclude, my question is: Why would any of the true extroverts here or salesmen (face to face salesmen not over the phone jesters) have an issue with the actualisation and application of game?

This shows ignorance regarding sales, many jobs still require the ability to sell over the phone.

The same way you can lose a girl or a potential client with your body language/presence in person, you can also ruin your chances over the phone with your voice and conversation abilities.

There's too many generalizations in the opening post in this thread for it to be truly applicable.

The reason I mention face to face is that I believe a large percentage of how you do with the lizard is with your face to face interaction (which is usually done initially). Whether it is SNL etc.
By the time, you get her on the phone, hopefully, you should be just playing anti-fcuk it up game.
I used to have a problem with talking too much on the phone. I engage too much in intellectual talk (not trying to come off as a creep) and I feel it would dry up the knickers. These days I try to be neutral on the phone and move them to a date as fast as possible. I am thinking I should experiment more and try and turn it up sexually and see where I get with that.

I have done sales so I have an insight in what I am talking about. I've never been good at sales. I tried it when I moved to the States and I actually did pretty well because I have a British accent.
I didn't like it in Toronto and I didn't like it in London.

Here is my sales experience:

In England I sold:

Face to face -

1) appointments in London for window installations (not the operating system) and I sucked at that. Young blonde lizards killed it cos most of the homeowners were thirsty men who were hoping to fcuk.
2) Gym memberships in High Wycombe (door to door). Didn't do that well at it.

Over the phone -

1)Timeshares in Lanzarote. Did absolutely crap at this.
2) Some kind of discount at Debenhams. Did alright at this and had housewives cackling saying I sounded like Ali G.

In Toronto, I didn't do any face to face.

Over the phone -

1) Subscriptions to the Globe and Mail - Did terribly at this, the people we targeted didn't need it and I couldn't overcome their objections. Those who did well at this were the lizards. Women trust women and men hope to fcuk.

2) Discounts to medical for Americans to Americans. This I did ok in.
3) Discounted phone service to Canadians. I did badly at this. All the lizards killed it in this job. People that came to mind that I remember killing it:
Some ghetto lizard from Regent park who didn't even use rebuttals. She just delivered her pitch and moved on. The fact that she sounded female alone (which falls in line with the fact that women trust women and men just wanna fcuk).
Some young black lizard (who got fcuked by one of the Bajan guys who got hired same time as me) killed it just fcuking around on the phone.
Some Jamaican lizard fresh from yard who had the blatant accent (plus gold cap to match).
Some black gay guy with an effeminate tone.

My point in the listing of the above is to show that I have been in the sales industry. It's the easiest job to get while you are trying to keep your head above waters.

If you are a true salesman that can sell a myriad of stuff from sh!t that people want, to sh!t that there really isn't an interest in via cold calls i.e. door to door sales on goofy sh!t like timeshares to broke people then the conversion to getting lizards is the same.

If you want to convert your ability sell to game, obviously the product you have got to flog is You. Obviously from sales, you are used to dealing with huge volumes so rejections shouldn't bother you. You won't see the Nos as a negative but merely the opportunity to gather more information.

Get her comfortable, ask probing questions, find a need and then pitch your product. Same process as how you sell your cars or your over the phone shyt. The reason I have discounted the over the phone pitch in this is because:

How many people in here do phone dating? As in, you go through the phone book and try to get dates from cold calling the numbers there? I would guess a very low amount hence I discount that skillset here.

Even if you had a great phone voice, if your body language is awkward in person and you have a smile like Arnold Schwarzenegger with cramps, your svelte phone voice will probably not overcome the weird visuals the lizard is getting from you.

All the extroverts or sales people I knew were very good at getting lizards. I distinctly recall going to collect a West Indian associate (a friend of someone I used to date) from Pearson airport. Immigration weren't going to let him through cos the dogs smelt ganja on him. We got him through and took him to some casino in Ontario to begin his Canadian experience. Not even two hours into being a fresh Canuck, I observed the guy light up a square and stare intensely at one of the lizards in our circle and begin his pitch.

That to me is the mark of an extrovert. I also remember a Gambian cat in the UK who pulled some nice lizards. He looked 'African' as some of you lot claim but he had a very friendly, trusting face and I always saw him rolling with some nice lizards. He gave off a nice, fun energy and I could easily see how that translated to lizards. I remember being at his place and he brought a pretty St Lucian lizard through.

What I am trying to say is that, extroverts and salesmen are not dampened by the No's. Unless you bonafide salesmen look like absolute gargoyles, I should imagine the translation to game to be the same.

Remember that we've established that looks don't matter enough to rule you out of the game.

I know a guy from Toronto that looks like a photocopy of Idi Amin that has white lizards practically flying at him. So unless you say that Idi Amin is a very good looking guy then we can safely dismiss looks.

So since we've ruled out looks and we can see the direct correlation between being an extrovert or great face to face salesman AND game, then why do you with these qualities struggle to actualise OR apply game principles?

[Moma]

(10-31-2014 05:17 PM)GLethal85 Wrote:  

I've been in car sales since 2010 and have it pretty down pat. I know EXACTLY how to talk to customers, how to get them excited, how to find the right car for them and how to make the entire process smooth.

I can get them to pay attention to me, I can lead them and i can DEMOLISH just about any objection they throw at me.

The less exciting truth about sales is that it's honestly a lot of making phone calls, writing emails and setting appointments. However my phone voice is ridiculous. I sell plenty of cars over the phone too.

Anyway...

Women are a different ball game. They are not coming up to me needing something that I can help them with. There's too much shit to overcome like cell phone and friends cockblocking. I put myself out there and don't get much back. Online dating too complete waste. Flake city.

Also I work so I have to rely on nightgame. I work every Saturday from 9 - 5 in the car biz and at the end of the day im tired. Connecticut in general is pretty shitty for game as well

I am an awesome salesman and I have shit performance with women. I would describe myself as an introvert who can turn on extrovert switch and happily enjoy myself.

Do you do much day game? Hit on lizards in Walmart, Walgreens or CVS? I won't lie, location does matter a great deal..some cities are definitely tiresome.
Do you like talking to people though?

[Deluge]

(10-29-2014 05:50 PM)Moma Wrote:  

So to conclude, my question is: Why would any of the true extroverts here or salesmen (face to face salesmen not over the phone jesters) have an issue with the actualisation and application of game?

I'm highly extroverted and social, and people would tell me I'm a natural born salesman or should be a politician or lawyer giving speeches etc. growing up. It's definitely a huge help, but it doesn't mean you don't need to learn game. You may have less approach anxiety starting out then most people, but you still have it and need to do enough approaches to get past it just like everyone else. You may be more charismatic in conversation from the outset then most people, but you've still got a way's to improve before you actually have tight game. It makes the learning curve a lot less steep, but there's still a lot to learn and a lot of skills to sharpen. I've only ever met one man who was born with the personality to truly, instantly kill it with women.

[Moma]

Deluge, that's exactly what I mean. There are certain tools or personalities that make it easier for one to pick up a skillset. If you tall, with a great vertical leap and good hand eye coordination, then becoming a decent basketball player will be easier. Doesn't mean that work doesn't have to be put in, it just makes the acquisition of normalcy in that profession an easier process.

[ColSpanker]

I've sold :
1) Kitchen products in retail. Mostly women employees and the customers were also women. They seemed to get off on an older dude selling to them.
2) Club clothing in Philly to all kinds of freaks. The store owner was female and was convinced that a straight white guy couldn't sell. Showed her.
3) Major brand electronics. My best selling and the worst shark pool I ever encountered. We had all kinds of people walking in there to buy flat screen TV's, but mostly guys. Used to stand amazed as dudes from south of the border would pull out a roll and start peeling off hundred dollar bills. Nearly got into fist fights over customers.
4) Jewelry. Worst sales job I ever had. Thought it would help me with women. WRONG. Most of the lizards coming in there were getting hitched and had their beta chump boy friends with them. I would rather have five teeth extracted than do that job again.
Currently selling industrial maintenance until I can get the shit right on my own company.
My advice to people who are introverts (like I used to be) and want to do sales. Pay someone to yell insults at you for 1/2 an hour. If at the end of that time you are still smiling, you might do OK in sales.

[Sebastian]

Do you guys relate to this?

I believe your Intention doesn't matter at all. Only your 'Presentation' matters.

I was not good in sales. I am sure a guy with better skills could sell inferior products more than I do.

Guys get frustrated because they feel like women makes a decision without realizing the true side of him and choose a guy whom he thinks he is inferior (aka douche bag)

Good sales guy (or a player) knows how to fully expose a good side of product (himself) Plus he knows how to sell the Dream.

I think Average guys are underachievers just in displaying his true values.

[Cobra]

I used to have a desk job and made it quite high up the ladder into senior management. Then I switched to sales. My story kind of links to the OP topic so here's a link: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-34550.html

My initial thoughts: I'm an introvert in the sense that I can't just walk up to people consistently and engage them. When I do, I try my best to make it memorable. So, I can do it by programming myself to do it consciously. If I had not found the manosphere and used a red pill framed mindset, I could not have done it. I likely may have let my "ego" take control and stayed in my desk job and eventually become Controller or CFO of a company. I would have gotten the ego boost that most guys in my profession get from titles and upward mobility and been soothed by its comfort. Instead, I took a huge risk and forayed into sales; but took it because I was confident in myself and saw myself succeeding in the future using social skills, some of which I don't even completely have. That's a macro view.

Now for the micro-view from the trenches: I cold call every day. It's not easy. I tell my boss it's not easy. He knows it's not easy. So do the rest of the guys on my team. That's important, knowing that sales is hard. That's why most people don't do it. Hence, more important is having the balls to do it anyway. It also begs to be noted that given the rejections, it's hard to not let it affect you. But to liken it to cold approaching girls HELPS A LOT! It's funny, in the interview for the job, I likened it to cold approaching. You learn to fix what you can and work hard at it. On top of that, don't let the shit that's outside of your control fuck up your mindset.

My final thoughts: Doesn't matter if you're an extrovert or introvert. There are many things that could cause you to be unable to handle a "no" from a potential client no matter who you are. It could be ego, fear, insecurity, whatever. Also in my business, you can't be some high energy guy going around and pushing clients to buy stuff. It won't create lasting business. The key is "connecting," just like game. You want them to come back, right? You also want to show value to others through your existing transactions right (referrals)? I see it as more about putting yourself out of your comfort zone and selling yourself whether you're introverted or extroverted.

There are just as many extroverts that can't do it as there are introverts. I saw both an introvert and an extrovert fired at our firm in the last month because they couldn't make the numbers. The extrovert tried to rely on his energy but couldn't connect the product to the client's needs. The introvert was fired because, well he sounded weird and presented even worse in person. The extrovert's energy did not help him just as much as the introvert's knowledge and intelligence didn't help him.

[Pontifex Maximus]

(10-29-2014 06:28 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Because as a salesman you can always fall back on the excuse that maybe the customer just didn't like the product your selling.

In game, that product is you, and that scares a lot of people.

Agreed.

I've done door to door residential and business to business industrial sales to pay tuition, and now I got promoted to director so I no longer work territory myself. My top salesmen are ~75% introverts. My extroverted salesman usually require closing a sale before lunchtime to ride the emotional momentum throughout the day. It's a deadly dependent relationship. Introverts gain energy during alone time, so they can quickly re-adjust and re-energize their pitches in the brief minutes between venues.

In other words, introverts have "inner peace", or indirect game, which clients have a sixth sense for. True indifference cannot be faked. Extroverts have a killer ice-breaker, but an extrovert having a dry morning will dry up the territory for the whole team.