[WestIndianArchie]

We're on the same page game wise. For me though, and I'm guessing most players the alternatives on any given night are

- fucking some chick you've already fucked
- staying at home and taking care of business
- going back out on the prowl
- another date with this chick you haven't fucked

New Pussy > Old Pussy

But then you got time and cost considerations...

All of these things rarely line up.

But the second part,

After she gave you "the run around"...(which is how must guys view it)

The first bang is probably decent, but it's the next few bangs that tend to be the real pay off. But then the high you get from fucking a new chick peters out as the novelties wear off and you start to deal with incompatibilities.

I think you need at least 3-4 more before all the accounts are settled.

If you get into a mini-LTR, in my experience, cost per notch climbs.

WIA

(10-18-2014 05:26 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Not a booty call directly but just tell her to come chill at yours.
Cook up some food, have some wine and go for the bang.

You have already wined and dinned her, plus you got the BJ. No more bars or clubs. Time for one-on-one in a place that is very suitable for having sex. I think a fourth date outside of your apartment is not ideal and is probably heading towards provider vibe even if you get the bang. I am not doubting your game but you are setting up a bad precedent with so many drink dates pre-bang.

(10-18-2014 04:45 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

She's already gotten sexual, just no fucking.

So if CPN is on your mind, you'd go for broke and do a bootycall text?

At best, she's sipping/eating/smoking whatever you have on hand.

So 4 dates, but you only outlayed for 3?

(10-18-2014 04:26 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Movie and a bottle of wine at yours. Late enough and with a good day selection (you working in the morning?) that she will be staying over. She comes straight to yours (no more drink dates), stick with your usual game and escalate straight off the bat. From writing this post it seems you know you may have already over invested.

At this stage she has been on several dates and either knows if she wants to fuck you or not. Don't pursue anymore. You have other girls in the rotation so withdraw a bit and try get her chasing if possible.

Bottom line I would invite her straight over and escalate hard. If she wants to fuck she will, if not you know you are being played. She has already decided which type of guy she sees you as you just have to find out for yourself. Hard escalation will let you know.

[Atlantic]

Let me put this this way:

What do you have to gain by any more dates?

You have already shown her what kind of guy you are, you have already got her interested and you have already got her sexual.

You stand to lose (possible off night, bad date, money, time) and have only very little, if anything, to gain on top of your current position.

Your place or hers. Bang. Solidify your position and then see what you want after that.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 05:33 PM)Teddykgb Wrote:  

Pussy only gets me instant gratification after having sex. As much as having a 9.2 on my arms out in public sounds cool it also sounds like a lot of work. I would definitely try to fuck her but I'm not going to spend all that much more time on her than I would a 7.

Go on one more date if you really feel that you are that close to getting the bang. Then you can squash this whole thread with how it turns out.

So effort/laziness is a factor.

The plot thickens.

WIA

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

I opt for the overnight stay to hedge my bets as it were

This way she knows I'm not hitting it and kicking her out pronto afterwards, no walk of shame. She's thinking of the afterglow cuddling.

Also, after I've dove into her orifices to my heart's desire she might have some pancakes waiting for her in the morning.

[Sourcecode]

(10-18-2014 04:37 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 04:29 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

Roosh did a post in 09
http://www.rooshv.com/true-cost-per-notch
The true cost per notch is your total expenses for life divided by girls banged

You can't just factor the dates..You have factor your logistics also.

I did it for my three month trip in Budapest.
I spent roughly 4500dollars for 3
For 17 notches it comes out to about 265 dollars per lay.
That factors my apartment cost, travel expenses and such..

I could lie and say I spend next to nothing. My average date cost me less than 20 dollars. Lots of dates could be free considering they were tinder matches or the girl brought her own alcohol.


But I don't think you should look at it as just the cost per days a when,a lot of other factors go into getting the date

In the travel context that makes sense, but if you're living someplace, you shouldn't count the overhead.

I'm not living in this particular apartment because access to women.
I pay rent because I need a place to live.


WIA

You need a place to live.. but that is still a factor in total cost.
Every factor goes into a bang.
Even if you chose a location next door to your job for money purposes.. it still factors into how much you will spend on the dates

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 05:37 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Let me put this this way:

What do you have to gain by any more dates?

You have already shown her what kind of guy you are, you have already got her interested and you have already got her sexual.

You stand to lose (possible off night, bad date, money, time) and have only very little, if anything, to gain on top of your current position.

Your place or hers. Bang. Solidify your position and then see what you want after that.

Where you are
- hours spent on 3 occasions
- dollars spent on 3 occasions
- unknown amount of time communicating with the chick to pull her initially, and then set up said dates

What you gain by going out on the date
- Given that she's already gave you a hummer, a bang with a chick that you think is smoking hot, not just run of the mill fuckable
- she could turn into a regular, and be on your rotation
- whatever benefits she might have as a person (LOL)

What you lose by not pursuing
- the time and money already spent with nothing but a blow job to show for it

Penny Wise and Pound Foolish?

Or totally rational, and understand that sunk costs are a fallacy.

WIA

[Atlantic]

Quote:

We're on the same page game wise. For me though, and I'm guessing most players the alternatives on any given night are

- fucking some chick you've already fucked
- staying at home and taking care of business
- going back out on the prowl
- another date with this chick you haven't fucked

New Pussy > Old Pussy

But then you got time and cost considerations...

New pussy always trumps old pussy for me. And my game tactics take that into account...

I line up and date girls during the day - noon till 8pm. Coffee dates, lunch, walks - whatever.

Then when she is at the point where she is DTF I clear a space for her on the night shift. Nighttime is only for girls who I have already fucked or I am 90% sure are going to put out. I rarely get burnt.

I don't do anymore night dates with girls who I am not nearly certain I will be fucking that night. Its a waste of my time.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 05:39 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

You need a place to live.. but that is still a factor in total cost.
Every factor goes into a bang.
Even if you chose a location next door to your job for money purposes.. it still factors into how much you will spend on the dates

I think of the apartment as a business suit (non-deductible)
- I have to wear it to work
- I bought it for work
- I'll wear it other places

Versus a Uniform (deductible - cost of doing business)
- buy it, have to wear it, can't wear it other places

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

WIA

[Akula]

(10-18-2014 05:38 PM)MY DETROIT PLAYAS Wrote:  

I opt for the overnight stay to hedge my bets as it were

This way she knows I'm not hitting it and kicking her out pronto afterwards, no walk of shame. She's thinking of the afterglow cuddling.

Also, after I've dove into her orifices to my heart's desire she might have some pancakes waiting for her in the morning.

I hear you but man I really prefer sleeping alone, and after tossing and turning all night I'm usually too exhausted the next morning anyway esp if I drank too much. I told my girl tonight I had to leave at 11 to meet a friend who's having problems so that I could sleep alone

Pancakes are pretty good though.....

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

@Akula

That's cool - but in my scenario won't be much sleeping anyways

[Teddykgb]

Of course laziness effort comes in to play.

At some point I would rather focus my time and effort on something more fruitful if nothing is panning out.

I guess that is what makes us all different. We all have different perspectives on if something is still worth chasing after.

I also work very early in the morning on week days (waking up around 4am) so staying up until 1 or 2 am on a weekday is not very appetizing for me.

[DarkTriad]

(10-18-2014 04:27 PM)Mister X Wrote:  

So, I have a few comments.

1.) I would cut down the amount of drinks you're paying for date 1

2.) Light dinner with wine? For a second date with a girl I'm not official with? No.

3.) Dinner at your place, I like that

I don't know what your stance is on texting -- I don't use it "just to set up dates" as you're missing out on a great opportunity to build comfort, seduce, and overall get her more worked up over you.

Personally I would do it this way:

1.) First date: Drinks (2-3 rounds max)

2.) Coffee date/lunch date/ice cream date/walk in the park or some other activity date -- one of those

3.) Dinner and a movie at my place

Throughout all of this, your texting game should let you know whether this girl is ready to hook up with you or not. Flirty banter, sexting, naught pics, any of those. Again, if you're one of those too cool to text guys, you're just making things more difficult.

I understand she's a 9 -- regardless, dropping hundreds of dollars on a girl you're just starting to get to know...personally I wouldn't do it.

If it's a girl who has come to expect that kind of treatment, then you'll be dropping that kind of money for as long as you decide to see her.

She needs to know you're the prize. Being with you is the prize. Not the lifestyle. Not expensive nights out on your dime.

"1.) I would cut down the amount of drinks you're paying for date 1"

Cut down on the drinking on Date 1? With todays flake rate? That's the one thing you shouldn't mess with. Nowadays you've got to pushing for the knockout on the first day.

Plenty of time to cheapen things up after she's already addicted to the cock.

[WestIndianArchie]

I totally missed this post.

You're really coming with the good points

So on your accelerated time table, two things happens
- the chick in my scenario gives up the panties quicker
- she balks

In my scenario, cause it is my post of course, she's ready to bang on date 4.

(10-18-2014 05:01 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

I probably lose some bangs but I save a lot of time and effort.

I specifically set up the scenario as a 9.2, and you haven't had that level of fine in a while.

But if I read you correctly, her attractiveness and rarity are non-issues.

(10-18-2014 05:01 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

If you need to step things up put the money into you, not her

More gym, better diet, better style, better logistics, better looks (teeth, hair, skin), more comfortable apartment, better kitchen and cooking skills, better game (ebooks, audiobooks), better logistics.

So in my scenario, the 20-40 bucks you might spend on date 4 would be better spent that night on some Protein Powder?

"Sorry babe, headed to GNC"

It's better to invest "date" money now, on the hope that you'll pull a chick faster in 3 months after dieting and exercising even more than you already do?

WIA

[Vaun]

My personal limit on dates is $40. Thats for any type of girl. Money is almost always a non-factor for the best looking girls, who turn out to be the most rewarding. I actively try not to spend money for the best ones, but look for authenticity in the time we spend together. Spontaneity is key and I am often never wrong with it. Often the cheapest dates and experiences yield the deepest connections and memories.

I've fallen into the trap of old pussy trumping new pussy. Especially girls I've come to realize are not worth my time. They actually hold me back in a lot of ways, from new pussy, career growth and goal attainment. Like my entire life feels constricted because I am going back to something I dont want, or is wrong in the first place for whatever reason. Most of all it prevents me from getting the best pussy I can find. The life depreciation of hitting old pussy far outweighs taking a few extra dates to tap some new ass.

Figuring cost, or, opportunity cost, my greatest asset is time. And if I waste three hours, it affects much more than one evening. For me if a girl matches completely with what I want and find attractive in a women, I will put in the extra time, but not money.

[Atlantic]

Wait is this scenario real or hypothetical?

Either way I personally wouldn't go on date four^. Its not the money its the precedent. I dont want a girl who takes four dates to maybe fuck her. I want her chasing from day one or at least very receptive to my game. Four dates in my experience is excessive. Girls know and act on fucking a 'r selected' guy much faster than that. If I am not getting results it isnt more dates its more work, on me.

To me it doesnt matter about how hot she is. I have got burnt in the past and now I dont give a fuck. Im the prize, she gets one or two looks and then she can make a choice. Fuck or fuck off.

Where there may be some disconnect is I dont drink and I have limited amounts of time in town between rotations so I treat my time valuable. I got 6 girls right now on rotation, 3 solid, 1 Im about to drop and 2 who would fuck but I dont text that often. Some girl who requires four dates is way too much effort personally and it won't work out anyway with how my life is scheduled. I can be gone for three weeks on a job so that could mean gaming her for four months. Fuck that. I push fast and escalate fast because I have to.

Of course guys with different lifestyles will act according to their set up. My prior answers were to help you with this scenario but if its strictly hypothetical then in my case the above is my approach.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 06:15 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

My personal limit on dates is $40. Thats for any type of girl. Money is almost always a non-factor for the best looking girls, who turn out to be the most rewarding. I actively try not to spend money for the best ones, but look for authenticity in the time we spend together. Spontaneity is key and I am often never wrong with it. Often the cheapest dates and experiences yield the deepest connections and memories.

Figuring cost, or, opportunity cost, my greatest asset is time. And if I waste three hours, it affects much more than one evening. For me if a girl matches completely with what I want and find attractive in a women, I will put in the extra time, but not money.

So in my scenario you wouldn't have gotten to date 2?
Wouldn't have gotten the bj on date 3?

My take is that your approach is fine, because you never know what you've missed out on.

WIA

This below is an entirely different post that deserves exploration outside of this context.

(10-18-2014 06:15 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

I've fallen into the trap of old pussy trumping new pussy. Especially girls I've come to realize are not worth my time. They actually hold me back in a lot of ways, from new pussy, career growth and goal attainment. Like my entire life feels constricted because I am going back to something I dont want, or is wrong in the first place for whatever reason. Most of all it prevents me from getting the best pussy I can find. The life depreciation of hitting old pussy far outweighs taking a few extra dates to tap some new ass.

[Vaun]

(10-18-2014 06:15 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

My personal limit on dates is $40.

(10-18-2014 06:26 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

So in my scenario you wouldn't have gotten to date 2?
Wouldn't have gotten the bj on date 3?

Usually I will pursue date two if date one went like you describe. I honestly feel that almost all date 2's that I lose are ones that I walk away from.

But, almost always nowadays, sex happens before head.

The variable here is the woman. Is she really your 9? That in itself throws almost all other interactions out the window. I can say that has rarely happened for me. And when it does, I go to the ends of the earth to win her over and to get her to fall in love with me. In my early age I was the flowers, poetry whatever it took uber beta robot. Now I find that going the distance, while holding back(money, info, words, gestures) actually get you farther faster.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 06:24 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Wait is this scenario real or hypothetical?

It's a hypothetical scenario scrubbed from my real life. The part about having other plates to spin, means that this particular girl isn't your only possibility for sexual release - but you would prefer her for various reasons.

But my perspective on spending time or money while i'm with a chick is different than some. CPN is an interesting metric, one that captures a lot of aspects of the male mentality that I don't really address when I write about the game.

I was trying to frame something that I find to be non-transactional as something is very transactional and came up with the scenario.

A girl that's super hot, that you're digging, that both of you are vibing together...but doesn't give it up on 1st or 2nd night, but you do get a quality bj. Which in my experience means that sex is a foregone conclusion on the next meeting.

For guys with the CPN mentality, what do they do when the sex is probable but the principles of money and efficiency clash

Principle over Pussy? Pussy over principle

That's why I made the chick in this scenario be *among* the hottest you've ever dealt with,and thrown in the BJ and the pics as a kicker.

I'm making the appeal of the chick as good as it possibly could be.

There are still some that prefer the Principle over the Pussy.

What this thread has turned into is folks looking to avoid very simple questions.

"I wouldn't do it this way"
"I would spend less money"
"I would never spend that much time with a girl"
"My style of game precludes these sorts of scenarios"

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

(10-18-2014 06:24 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Either way I personally wouldn't go on date four^. Its not the money its the precedent. I dont want a girl who takes four dates to maybe fuck her. I want her chasing from day one or at least very receptive to my game. Four dates in my experience is excessive. Girls know and act on fucking a 'r selected' guy much faster than that. If I am not getting results it isnt more dates its more work, on me.

So the bj and the pics and the good vibe you have together count for nothing? And you're willing to write off the time and money already spent?

(10-18-2014 06:24 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

To me it doesnt matter about how hot she is. I have got burnt in the past and now I dont give a fuck. Im the prize, she gets one or two looks and then she can make a choice. Fuck or fuck off.

I respect a man of principle.
I'm not knocking or mocking your perspective at all.

I'm trying to shake your resolve.

What can I explain or illustrate that might soften up your stance?

Apparently nothing. You're a rock.

(10-18-2014 06:24 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Where there may be some disconnect is I dont drink and I have limited amounts of time in town between rotations so I treat my time valuable. I got 6 girls right now on rotation, 3 solid, 1 Im about to drop and 2 who would fuck but I dont text that often. Some girl who requires four dates is way too much effort personally and it won't work out anyway with how my life is scheduled. I can be gone for three weeks on a job so that could mean gaming her for four months. Fuck that. I push fast and escalate fast because I have to.

So in some sense, you have your principles because of necessity, not because of anything else.

You're leaving open the possibility of what you would do if you weren't living the same life.

Not that I care, one way or the other.

WIA

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 06:37 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Now I find that going the distance, while holding back(money, info, words, gestures) actually get you farther faster.

That's what i've found too.

One of the seducer's dilemma's

I have to be "cruel" to receive kindness.

WIA

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(10-18-2014 05:24 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Folks keep trying to dodge the questions and deal with things I'm not explicitly asking. Like trying to herd cats.

Take money out of the equation, you're still investing time.

Do you go on the 4th date?
And how much banging would make the "frustration" worth it?

Or do you stand on principal and next this 9.2 that you like and she gave you a bj, because you didn't fuck her in 3 dates or less?

WIA

For a HB9 investing more dates? Hell yes - I have Player friends who stay in the pursuit for a month or longer after some hot ass. Of course that is valid if she is worth it and has good reasons for not having given you sex after 3 dates.

Some girls are just relationship minded, conservative, Russian, going through some strange shit, still pining after her last major Alpha etc. The reasons for her restraint may be many.

If you are Colin Farrell or Dan Bilzerian and your plate is filled with 8s, 9s and 10s - then you likely won't invest in a second date on a HB9.2, but for the non-famous guy - those 9s don't come that often and are thus worth it. And anyone claiming that his roster is filled with 9s via cold-approaching is lying.

[Ice]

(10-18-2014 06:15 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Money is almost always a non-factor for the best looking girls, who turn out to be the most rewarding. I actively try not to spend money for the best ones, but look for authenticity in the time we spend together. Spontaneity is key and I am often never wrong with it. Often the cheapest dates and experiences yield the deepest connections and memories.

Figuring cost, or, opportunity cost, my greatest asset is time. And if I waste three hours, it affects much more than one evening. For me if a girl matches completely with what I want and find attractive in a women, I will put in the extra time, but not money.

Yeah I agree. I don't really understand why people think that they have to invest more money in a 9.5 that in a 7. As Vaun said, I think really good looking girls actually care least about your money. They have enough guys buying them shit. And for a really good-looking girl it's quite easy to make money herself. Maybe not millions, but she won't be hurting for money. So that's why the whole question is more about time than money.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-18-2014 07:41 PM)Ice Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 06:15 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Money is almost always a non-factor for the best looking girls, who turn out to be the most rewarding. I actively try not to spend money for the best ones, but look for authenticity in the time we spend together. Spontaneity is key and I am often never wrong with it. Often the cheapest dates and experiences yield the deepest connections and memories.

Figuring cost, or, opportunity cost, my greatest asset is time. And if I waste three hours, it affects much more than one evening. For me if a girl matches completely with what I want and find attractive in a women, I will put in the extra time, but not money.

Yeah I agree. I don't really understand why people think that they have to invest more money in a 9.5 that in a 7. As Vaun said, I think really good looking girls actually care least about your money. They have enough guys buying them shit. And for a really good-looking girl it's quite easy to make money herself. Maybe not millions, but she won't be hurting for money. So that's why the whole question is more about time than money.

Keep in mind your time is worth something as well.
probably more than the dollars you spend.

[Laner]

I would do the fourth date. This is based on my past experiences, where instead of getting impatient on date 2 or 3 I stick around and go all in on date four.

I have found that I need more time to get the better looking women. I have struggled with getting ONS my whole life, and I have only banged one 9 in a bar an hour after meeting her. So of course I will play my odds and go for a fourth date.

I look at dates in the same way as business. I would be out anyways, likely talking shop with someone so why not a smoke show for drinks and a BJ.

I go out three or four times a week so no matter if I am spending money on a woman, a buddy, or just myself I consider that money gone the second I hit the pavement. My accountant thinks I should spend less on entertainment, and I know he is right, but the reality is that I know I am making money by being out. While not directly, having a reputation as knowing lots of people, ins to the best spots, all the while maintaining a friendly and charming personality is what makes people want to be invested in me. Having a 9 out for oysters and champagne on date four makes the dream I am selling all the more real.

[Vaun]

(10-18-2014 07:41 PM)Ice Wrote:  

(10-18-2014 06:15 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Money is almost always a non-factor for the best looking girls, who turn out to be the most rewarding. I actively try not to spend money for the best ones, but look for authenticity in the time we spend together. Spontaneity is key and I am often never wrong with it. Often the cheapest dates and experiences yield the deepest connections and memories.

Figuring cost, or, opportunity cost, my greatest asset is time. And if I waste three hours, it affects much more than one evening. For me if a girl matches completely with what I want and find attractive in a women, I will put in the extra time, but not money.

Yeah I agree. I don't really understand why people think that they have to invest more money in a 9.5 that in a 7. As Vaun said, I think really good looking girls actually care least about your money. They have enough guys buying them shit. And for a really good-looking girl it's quite easy to make money herself. Maybe not millions, but she won't be hurting for money. So that's why the whole question is more about time than money.

Where I live everyone has money. Its a given. And to be honest a dinner in a fancy restaurant is not that impressive unless the girl is coming from some small town. Its all about the man.

WIA - not dodging your question but this scenario is hard for me to imagine. I haven't had a girl say "no Ill just suck your dick" in a long time.

[el mechanico]

Quote:

1) Are you willing to invest more time money to bang a 9.2 on your scale?
2) After the first bang, how many bangs would you need to get a solid return on investment?

2 more? 10 more? 1 threesome? Anal on the 2nd bang?

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