[Nomad77]

I have finally come to understand my primary discontent with American women: they are mostly Takers. They take your attention, they take your time, they take your validation, they take your money, and they also take your dick. And what do they give in return? (As one latin girl told me) The pleasure of their company.

When was the last time some girl you know gave you a massage or cooked you a meal? When was the last time a girl did something for you that didn't have any benefit for her? When was the last time a girl did something for you when you hadn't done anything for her and she wasn't expecting something in return? When was the last time a girl actually gave you something without you first giving her something? Even something as small as sharing something with you or expressing a concern about your health? It's very rare to meet a girl these days that are willing to give you anything. They are all more than willing to take everything they can get though.

So I have come to understand this is one of my main issues with American girls. So how do I filter for this? How can I detect if a girl has the potential to be a giver? I didn't have a way until something hit me recently. I won't go into the story but basically if a girl can't show some real appreciation and gratitude for something you have done for her. She won't be able to give you much else. She won't be a Giver. Think about it for a moment. If you do something for a girl and she can't even express some sincere gratitude why would she want to give you anything else? Showing appreciation for something someone has done for you is the lowest form of giving. If you can't even do that how you are going to give anything more than that.

So this is the test: do something for a girl or give her something. It could just be a few drinks, dinner, you help her review some paper etc. If she can't thank you sincerely and mean it you won't be getting much of anything from this girl: she's a taker and not a giver. It's that simple!

Let me give you two recent examples:

Grabbing a bite with the Mexican actress. The bill came. She put down some money on the table. I put down my credit card. She then took her money back! I didn't say anything - just how I am. So I ended up paying for the meal. Did she thank for me this? Nope, she's not a giver.

Lunch with the Rabbi daughter. She asked if she was paying for herself or if I wanted to pay. I said, don't worry about it, I will take care of it. She thanked me but then she did something even more insightful. We didn't eat all of the food so we were taking the left over to go. There was a whole loaf of bread on the table. I told her to take it. She goes, no, we should share it and broke it in half. Do you think she has the potential to be a giver?

A giver is not only important for a decent relationships but they are also the girls I like best in bed. A giver in bed will be more concerned about your pleasure. A taker will be ONLY concerned about her own and that is how most American girls are in bed. I can tell you from a lot of personal experience you DO NOT want to get involved emotionally with a girl that is not a giver. You will end up regretting it.

[Kaizen]

Amen.

I now know a Nomad thread just from the title. Keep it up.

[eradicator]

(09-27-2014 09:07 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

So I have come to understand this is one of my main issues with American girls. So how do I filter for this? How can I detect if a girl has the potential to be a giver?

date more yoga women. go to yoga retreats, concerts, get involved. the quality of women i meet through yoga is much higher than your average american woman.

[Nomad77]

The yoga girls are definitely better. I was dating one until recently. Unfortunately she had some personal problems from previous relationships - baggage.

[Brodiaga]

Unfortunately it's not just American girls. A Russian friend of mine made this observation a few years ago and it stuck in my head: men are givers and women are takers. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are few and far between.

The reason why girls from poorer countries may appear nicer and more "giving" is just the balance of supply and demand. They have to be nicer with men because well-off, eligible men are harder to come by. They can't be takers all the time because there's not that much to take in the first place.

[jariel]

[simondice]

What if she's investing?
I consider myself lucky, last times I could think where a girl paid for drinks or made me favors WITHOUT me offering anything were American women. Did they want dick? sure, but it wasn't like they were expecting anything in return (other than sex). These are 7 girls in hotness too. More generous than Latinas actually, Latinas give of themselves usually after sex, NEVER before.

[Nomad77]

It doesn't count and I will tell you why. Women view those kinds of things as a power play. They are trying to say that they don't need a man and that they are financially independent. They are not buying you drinks because they give a shit about you. They are doing it to show you they can. It's a way of flashing their money. The same way men buy women things. As women become more like men they also act more and more like them.

[ryanf]

(09-27-2014 09:11 PM)Kaizen Wrote:  

Amen.

I now know a Nomad thread just from the title. Keep it up.

Ha, was going to remark something similar. When I see it, I know some pragmatic, practical advice will follow.

[Basil Ransom]

Great post, entirely in agreement. This is why I'm not friends with girls. If anything, girls are even BIGGER takers as friends. They may not make you for pay things as much as they would as a lover, but otherwise it's the same. You're putting in just as much energy but not getting anything back - even with a taker, sex is not enervating, but entertaining a taker is.

One thing you can do is demand the girl give YOU a gift.

I do this by insisting that the girl drive to me for the first date. I did this initially because it makes it much easier to bang, but it also has the ancillary effect of filtering out some of the takers. Still, this isn't a big deal to most girls, and most takers will put up with that.

Another thing you can do is select a date spot that's BYOB, and ask her to bring something.

I'd like to hear other methods for demanding gifts, especially early on. You just have to figure out how to do it smoothly.

[WestIndianArchie]

Is that you Reed Richards?

Dr. Doom here.

1) I don't think Taker/Giver is a useful measure here.
2) Based on the 2 above scenarios
- Quality girl/Quality relationship minded Nomad
- TREATS 2 chicks to din din
- WAITS for them to reach for the check
- DECIDES that how they handle the payment 1st meal is a test of give/take

Seems to me you spotted these Takers after they took something from you, and not before.

I guess one meal is better than an entire lifetime of work, but if I was pre-disposed to finding these "takers", I'd like for it to be before I took them out to dinner. Even if you go cheap and ethnic for the meal, 2 ten dollar plates, plus 2 non-alcoholic drinks and tip is gonna be ~30 bucks.

3) Keep in mind that the world over, even in super male-centric societies, that 1st meeting is supposed to be a dude providing for a chick. It's a token gesture that says to her, "Yo if things pop off, and we get together, I can take care of you and whatever kids we may have."

______________________________

Experiences with givers

1) My Jewish homey said on the first date, his gal brought a coupon.

They married and have a kid, seem to be happy. (although he's definitely beta

2) When I was in Japan, met this chick through a friend. Me, My Boy, and her did some site seeing.

Would you believe this woman (20's at the time), cooked a meal for 3, carried it with her, and served us?

If only I spoke Japanese...

She's not married.

3) In the States, at a concert. I'm sweating like a MRA Activist at a Oprah convention. This Persian chick that I sorta know out of nowhere came up to me and gave me some cold water.

I'll never forget it.

Also not married.

On a personal note, this is probably a big reason that I like waitresses, they bring me food and drink before I shell out...lol.
________________________________

How we used to spot Giver's back in the day.

You roll up to her spot in your car.
You open the car door for her.
She gets in.

As you round the car, she reaches over and unlocks your door.

This was immortalized in the film A Bronx Tale, but it was well known at the time.

With keyless entry, the Automotive industry has yet dealt another blow against the common man.

______________________________________________

How do you do this today?

Gauge her response times to your texts?

I don't know. I just assume that they're all takers and recognize that it's gonna be like that until I die.

It's been my experience that a chick is willing to share the burden after a few dates, but it truly is a BURDEN with some of them. Or they say some slick shit like, "It's my treat".

When I come out the pocket, it's my DUTY.

WIA

[Nomad77]

The key point I am making here is to look to see if the girl can express gratitude for something you or someone else did for her. If she cannot acknowledge and express gratitude then she is not going to be able to give much of anything. Asking a girl to explicitly do something is not a good test because they will just do it because you are sort of calling them out on good behavior. The true mark of a giver is when a girl does something of her own accord, when she is not pushed into doing something.

As I told this girl: I know you give me massages but have you ever given me a massage without me asking you for one?

Of course it would be great to spot them as early as possible but I would gladly pay for some drinks or whatever and know who I am dealing with. For me this is a cheap price to pay to know this. Unfortunately, you can simply assume that most girls these days will be mostly takers. What really gets to me is not that they take. Is that the now take and don't even feel they need to say thanks. This is the level of entitlement girls have these days.

[Basil Ransom]

I still find girls will consistently say thank you but I don't put much stock in that. Anyone can say thank you.

Also, girls aren't necessarily consistently a taker or a giver. They can be a giver in one area and a taker in another. I dated a Latina who would almost initiate text message conversations and ask me how my day was and such. She always meant it, and was always giving positive energy. Even when she was feeling ill, she was cheerful in talking to me. But she also insisted on other people shuttling her around everywhere. Still, I'd class her as a giver - she understood that there are certain realms where I would give, and others where she would.

So a girl's status as a giver or a taker is strongly mediated by outside factors.

Does she have a decent job? No? Then expect her not to pay for much.

Does she like to cook? She will cook for you unprompted.

But in general, I agree, girls can be classed as givers and takers.

Sometimes you have to lead girls and tell them to be a giver. I'd rather be with a girl I can nudge into taking than a girl who effusively thanks me but that's it.

[Nomad77]

I agree, thank you doesn't mean much. You have to look at their face and to see how much they really mean it. This is why a thank you text means practically nothing.

What I have found is that a girl can be very giving to her kid, pet, best friend etc. but not to you. This is just a general test that I have found to be useful in my experience. Maybe you can train a girl to be more giving but that is going to entail some extended work. This is the kind of stuff we are taught as children growing up.

[Basil Ransom]

(09-28-2014 01:35 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

What I have found is that a girl can be very giving to her kid, pet, best friend etc. but not to you.

I think this is a result of the local sexual market. In a place like Miami especially (or so I hear), guys are throwing tons of freebies at girls. That is the norm for them. So her giving something to you, who is just another male suitor, is just unnecessary. Getting wined and dined in a lopsided way is what she knows, and simply how things are done.

A girl who is a good person may overcome this and still thank you regardless, but... it's like this chick I met who insists she never pays to get in anywhere in Vegas. And I'm sure there are thousands like her - it goes from that to, "I never pay for dates (because I've never had to and every decent guy in the past has)." If you meet a model via bottle service, you're not going to suddenly start splitting the checks on date 1 or 2.

[jariel]

(09-28-2014 01:41 PM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

I think this is a result of the local sexual market. In a place like Miami especially (or so I hear), guys are throwing tons of freebies at girls. That is the norm for them.

Basil, you've heard correctly.

Remember when they filmed Jersey Shore on South Beach?

Angelina met some Cuban dude, and he was simpin' hard. Dude was buying her gifts, taking her to fancy restaurants, the whole nine. Then she ends up hooking up with Vinny one night on the way home from the club, and the whole time the two of them swore they hated each other.

So the dude she hated got some play, while the dude who was ready to put the world on his credit card for her, got played.

Latin dudes can be players by nature, it's a culture thing, but just because you can have more than one chick, doesn't preclude you from being a simp, and usually the simpin' is employed to cover up the fact that you're a player -- I'll go into how girls use this on another post.

How much you're expected to simp will depend on what culture the girl is from. Some girls will actually get turned off by the simpin', meanwhile some will play you to the left if you don't; your average Dominican girl will have much lower expectations than your average Colombian girl.

But, let me speak on this topic generally, because I did want to do that and address Basil's comment.

This whole giver/taker concept has something to do with socioeconomics, culture, and your mentality.

I've always believed the way you start is the way you finish. If you invite a chick to come out with you, the expectation is that you pay for whatever the event is. I don't disagree with a woman who shares that mentality. However, I think that at some point, perhaps even before the actual interaction, you have to get her to invest in some way, even if it's a small thing.

Here in Miami, most of our dates take place at clubs. You meet a girl, get her number, hit her up, you're headed to some club that's dope, she's welcome to come along, even bring a friend if it's going to be you and a homie. There's obviously going to be drinks and probably something to burn, so you need altoids.

You let her know that's needed, she picks that up on the way. If you're pre-gaming and need chaser, she picks that up on the way, anything, even small, but you make her put down on something so you establish that she's going to have to put down on something.

I don't like to deal with really poor chicks, e.g. unemployed chicks, young, single mothers. They won't have any money to contribute to the night whatsoever, so the expectation is automatically that you're going to pay for everything. I would say the only time I go against this thought process is when I'm dealing with hot, young girls. I don't expect a 19-year old to have bread, but I do expect her to get on all fours at the end of the night, and I know she will after a night of doing some shit that her peers can't do with her.

I've been doing something for years on girls who do have money, and I'm happy to share this trick with you guys. This trick only works if you don't look like a guy who is broke, that means your fashion game is on point, your appearance game is on point -- in Miami, you can add the fact that you drive a certain car.

"I lost/left my wallet."

It's an old excuse, usually employed by broke dudes who can't pay and it forces the girl into a bad spot. Now, you're going to use it, and it's going to work for you, because again, you don't come across as a guy who doesn't really have money.

There's an old movie with John C. Reilly and Diego called "Criminal". In one of the scenes, Reilly teaches Luna that people are more apt to give you money when you look like you have it.

If you want to extract money from a girl who has money, it's easier to do it when you look like you have money as well.

My go-to excuse is I got in a workout before I met up with the girl, because I wanted to make sure I was looking good, feeling good, and ready to party all night long with her, and in my haste to get ready, I must have left it in my gym bag.

I say all of this with part smile, part politician-apologetic tone -- you have to learn how to apologize like a politician, which means you never say, "I'm sorry" -- and I end it with, "thanks for taking care of tonight for us, I got us next time for sure."

Then I compliment her shoes.

[Nomad77]

Good one, the only thing is, you have to go somewhere where they won't card you

[anonymous123]

@Nomad77 - I agree completely. I've been dating a South American, and she just randomly washes dishes. She thinks ahead "he loves his coffee, and all his coffee cups are dirty...I better wash them so they are ready in the morning".

It might sound like this is insignificant, but unlike an American, she is looking for little things that she knows I appreciate and wants to do them to make things nice.

[I've had the American, and the costly American divorce...got the t-shirt...not going to repeat]

[jariel]

(09-29-2014 12:24 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

@Nomad77 - I agree completely. I've been dating a South American, and she just randomly washes dishes. She thinks ahead "he loves his coffee, and all his coffee cups are dirty...I better wash them so they are ready in the morning".

It might sound like this is insignificant, but unlike an American, she is looking for little things that she knows I appreciate and wants to do them to make things nice.

[I've had the American, and the costly American divorce...got the t-shirt...not going to repeat]

It's rather refreshing when you have someone who actually just wants to make you happy.

These bitches we're dealing with are so selfish that they're more willing to ruin a relationship than nurture one so it can grow.

It's our job to initiate the relationship, where it goes from there is mostly on her. We don't just wake up one day and decide to leave, we look at the laundry list of bullshit they've hung out to dry and then we find someone else to do our laundry.

[WestIndianArchie]

(09-28-2014 02:56 PM)jariel Wrote:  

your average Dominican girl will have much lower expectations than your average Colombian girl.

I'd like to hear more on this topic.

WIA

[DJ-Matt]

(09-28-2014 12:42 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

How we used to spot Giver's back in the day.

You roll up to her spot in your car.
You open the car door for her.
She gets in.

As you round the car, she reaches over and unlocks your door.

This was immortalized in the film A Bronx Tale, but it was well known at the time.

With keyless entry, the Automotive industry has yet dealt another blow against the common man.

Which is why both of my vehicles lack power locks.

[youngblazer]

I'm lucky to be dating a "giver" girl. Some qualities I've noticed

1) She cares about her friends' well-being and tries to make them happy.
2) Likes to throw small parties/gatherings.
3) Likes to cook/eat-in.
4) Always does the dishes if I cook.
5) Somewhat artsy and occasionally makes crafts.
6) Has one pet
7) Tries to get to know people she hasn't met
8) Is sensitive emotionally
9) Does volunteer work
10) Enjoys paying for things when she can.

[Noir]

A lot of insightful and thought provoking posts.

To begin with, I think it would be more adept to apply this dichotomy of takers & givers to humans generally, not just women. This is ingrained into our culture and when we 'give', we expect rewards. This feeling of reward and obligation invariably leads to more takers as people don't make an effort or don't really care.

It just happens to be easier for women to 'take' when guys are constantly offering to 'give'. Of course, women are attracted to confidence, most guys get confidence through resources and they 'give' the resources to women. Women, especially where I come from are brought up to believe and expect this.

For the sake of discussion though, a few thoughts of mine.

a) her background and class. This is shitty but true. If she is used to being given things and being spoiled then obviously she is a taker. I have met Russian belters who came from nothing and expected the best treatment on account of their hotness. I have yet to meet a woman from a wealthy background who didn't expect the same though.


b) what image is she aware that she is 'selling'. This is kind of like your image at the poker table. Plenty of women I know purposely are 'takers' because they are laying down their frame and expectations. It becomes easy to gauge a guys interest through a material and emotional platform by how much they 'give'. How much does she think she can get away with? I do this with women too on both levels.


c) how do you 'affect' her image through your own image (her pinging off you). How does she view you (value) and how scarce are you (you could also probably apply demand elastic/inelastic). These two intertwined (with other smaller factors) will define how far from her 'baseline demands' she will stray. This applies to emotional more than financial which is also dependent on your age, I believe.


d) her past experiences. If her previous boyfriends tainted her with gifts and emotions and shit, she will probably expect the same. Then again, the attraction may exist because you're different from her ex boyfriends (your image).


e) location: where you met (5 star hotel pool vs karaoke bar), where you are out together (who is watching us), is it cheap enough for her to pay and still feel feminine etc. I have fallen for this as well, where I 'felt' obligated to pay for a girl on account that I knew the management.



The women who were 'givers' in my life were only giving because of the transactional basis of our relationship. I know that I provide a certain aspect of things and they provide back other things. I also take, hence I think an absolute dichotomy would be a bit extreme.

They pleased me because I provided them with stimulation, status and access to certain places at times. The ones who 'gave' financially were the ones who older, independent and wanted to frame the relationship as 'fun and playful' rather than serious.

I thought I met a woman who 'gave' unconditionally and that was because she did not need me in her life. She was 43, independent, wealthy and successful. She just wanted a boy toy for a while.

Wrong.

I gave her self-esteem and confidence and we would be the centre of attention every time we would go to a public place.

@jariel, I agree with your post 110%. If you don't pay up, some other guy will pay up.

He will be her piggy bank, you will be her sexual fantasy and some other guy will do her work for her.

Just do the same. Only your mother will give unconditionally.

[AneroidOcean]

(09-29-2014 12:18 PM)youngblazer Wrote:  

I'm lucky to be dating a "giver" girl. Some qualities I've noticed

1) She cares about her friends' well-being and tries to make them happy.
2) Likes to throw small parties/gatherings.
3) Likes to cook/eat-in.
4) Always does the dishes if I cook.
5) Somewhat artsy and occasionally makes crafts.
6) Has one pet
7) Tries to get to know people she hasn't met
8) Is sensitive emotionally
9) Does volunteer work
10) Enjoys paying for things when she can.

I do feel fortunate to be dating a girl who is a giver (along with the last three girls I dated). Some of the things I noticed them doing:

1) Always caring how I was doing, their default was to always ask how I was doing and seeing what they could do to help me before sharing any of their frustrations/issues they might be going through.
2) Cares about her friends and family.
3) Works her schedule around mine, goes out of her way to spend time with me.
4) Always offer to pay for themselves at minimum.
5) Cook/bake for me and bring me leftovers of good meals to make sure I don't go hungry. Obviously I wouldn't go hungry without that food, but they want me to have quality food.
6) Bring me very thoughtful gifts. Usually minor, but very much appreciated and completely unsolicited.
7) Offer to run errands or bring something on their way over to me. When I work late, when I end up not being able to meet them, when I have other things take priority, they are always accommodating/understanding and offer to come to me just to say hi/visit quickly or to reschedule.
8) Always very happy/appreciative whenever I do something for them, however small.
9) Does volunteer work (I hadn't even thought about this until it was posted by youngblazer but it's actually a GREAT quality shared by all three of the last girls I dated).
10) Always help me clean up after a party/BBQ/get together. Usually helping clean/support during the events as well. Always ask if they can invite their friends, bring only quality people to my events that add to the group. Big in my world to not bring drama/low value people around.

All have been giving in bed, but then I don't like to fuck entitled girls who think I should do everything for them. These girls are absolutely overjoyed with how I fuck them and absolutely deserve every orgasm I give them and love giving me orgasms. Never complain once when they don't get an orgasm and I just fuck them quick to get mine from time to time.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

Sounds like guys have their own filtering processes to determine which side of the fence a girl is on early into the interaction (small items ie 'bring rolling papers' etc)

Mine is similar in that I will use a few "low investment" outings to see where her head is at

Meeting up at an outdoor exhibit, grabbing a smoothie and walking through a scenic spot, clothes/shoe shopping (going dutch of course) - all things I enjoy doing

Fortunately, I've had one or two flat out reject these but fuck it it is a "screening process" for this very reason.

Then when it comes to ramping things up, and we have decided to hang out "for real for real" then I have no problem planning something and asking her to bring a bottle/food...it's more of a natural/organic progression

Then again, it's all about your target selection. I want a chick who doesn't mind breaking bread with cool ass guy