Quote: (07-25-2014 12:58 PM)NY Digital Wrote:
Quote: (07-25-2014 12:52 PM)HankRearden Wrote:
http://therightscoop.com/israeli-ambassa...-a-target/
Okay? Do you have anything to add?
Palestinians are losing all of their homes and they have nowhere to live. Israel's constant bombing of all of the Palestinian infrastructure is sapping them completely dry. Using the argument, "because Hamas!" to justify bombing buildings and killing/injuring/misplacing civilians is a freaking war crime.
Actually, I have plenty to add. As a lawyer, and probably one of the few people on this forum with a grasp of international law, I can tell you that it is Hamas -- not Israel -- who continues to violate international law flagrantly.
By firing indiscriminately at civilian centres and then using women and children as human shields, Hamas commits a double war crime. They even admit it.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/ta...fault.aspx
After reading the thread on this forum about Jews and Israel I have become seriously disheartened by the undercurrent of anti-Semitism that exists on this forum.
I purposely didn't post there, and after this I will not post again here. I don't care what any of you believe, and you are free to continue believing what you choose; I know my opinions probably won't change yours either; and even if they do, I truthfully can't be fucked to type out two thousand words daily. The only topic I bother arguing about with people in real life is Israel, because I know I'm right -- and it matters -- regardless of whether history will agree with me or not. I feel like I owe it to them to write this post.
I'll make a few points here which you all can respond to if you choose to, but I won't add anything after. If you really want to continue feel free to PM me. I would even be happy to chat over Skype.
I was in Israel two months ago. I also went to Jordan and Turkey then. I visited the West Bank then as well.
This is what I have to say:
1) Hamas is a terrorist organisation. What is it do you think they want? This isn't asked often, is it? What does Hamas want?
A) Do they want to be free from the "Israeli Occupation"?
There is no Israeli occupation in the legal sense of the word. Be careful not to conflate the West Bank with Gaza, as they are two entirely different matters. Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely in 2005, uprooting 12,000 Jewish settlers who fought the IDF, forcing the IDF to literally drag their own people out of their homes, all in the effort for peace. Israel left behind 3,000 greenhouses as a token of good will to help the Palestinian economy. Obviously they were all burned down immediately. Soon after, the Gazans democratically elected a terrorist group, Hamas. Israel controls the borders to ensure that weapons don't get in and prevent suicide bombers into Israel. So far this measure has been greatly successful in reducing terrorism against Israel. Is it ideal for Gazans to have these restrictions against them? Of course not. I'm not an idiot. But obviously Israel cannot let them roam with absolute freedom if it means its own citizens will die. Let's be clear, this war has nothing to do with an "occupation".
B) Is it because Hamas wants land?
Again, no.
Read this to see excerpts with commentary about the Hamas charter. If you don't read this then you should not be able to comment about Hamas. Forget the guy's commentary, just take Hamas' words for themselves...
http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/22/9-thin...s-charter/
The Palestinians had an offer for land in 1947, far more than they have ever been offered since and rejected it. They rejected it in 1967 again, and multiple times in the past 20 years.
C) What does Hamas want?
Hamas wants the extermination of the Jewish people -- every last Jew from Tel-Aviv to New York to Buenos Aires to Shanghai -- and ALL of the land of Israel. They will not stop until they achieve this.
This puts Israel in a rather bizarre situation. Hamas wants to destroy Israel... how is Israel to proceed? How can Israel make peace with a group that won't recognise it's right to exist? How can Israel agree to a ceasefire when Hamas will just store up rockets again and wait until the next time?
2) The Current Conflict
If Hamas had the opportunity they would kill the maximum number of Israelis, and Israel has the opportunity to kill the maximum number of Gazans — and they don’t.
The conflict was started because Hamas kidnapped three Jewish teenagers (15 minutes from where I was staying, while I was there), and killed them and left them in a field. Israel went into the West Bank to search for them. The IDF is fierce about never leaving an Israeli behind, and even fiercer when it comes to their own soldiers (often trading over a thousand convicted Palestinian prisoners for a single Israeli -- demonstrated their devotion to the value of life).
Did Israel push too hard in the West Bank? Was it a pretext for military movements? Who knows. I happen to think it was justified; others think it was not. The truth is their action can hardly be criticised. Imagine what would have happened if Israel didn't push hard? Or did nothing? Desperate times call for desperate measures. And even if you believe Israel went too far, it by no means justified the Hamas response, all the way in the Gaza strip.
Hamas began a campaign of rocket launches, nearly
100 before Israel began to retaliate.
Can you imagine what it's like for a country to be hit by a
single rocket, let alone 100?
Now, you might have read about Israel's Iron Dome program that can, for $50,000 per strike, potentially take down rockets. This is true. Thus, the brunt of Hamas rockets were not killing people or causing massive damage. But guess what?
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.
That is NOT the way that international law works, let alone common sense. Saying "oh, Israel totally overreacted because they could deflect the rockets," is retarded. No country is expected to tolerate a single terrorist strike against it, let alone countless ones.
Finally, Israel said enough was enough. It is time to stop the rocket attacks, to protect its citizens, and to take down Hamas.
The Death Count
The death count is massively lopsided, with far more Gazans dead than Israelis. To most, who know little of the conflict, reading "600 to 5" reeks of some evil being committed. I will tell you today that it is entirely irrelevant.
A) "Disproportionate" response
But Hank, isn't the response by Israel disproportionate? No. This word gets thrown around a lot. Put simply, you can lose a far wars and be Lebanon/Egypt/etc; but you can’t go 8 and 1 and be Israel. If Israel loses a war there will be no Israel. There will be another holocaust. (Does that word, "holocaust", unnerve many of you? I bet it does. I used it intentionally because I know how many of you probably love throwing that word without restraint, and then hating every time a supporter of Israel, or god forbid a Jew brings it up!)
Mayor Bloomberg has an excellent response to the disproportionality question. Watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_FtkFqFV3o
A proportional response by Israel to the attacks of the last seven years would mean that every time a rocket is fired by Hamas at an Israeli civilian center, Israel would respond by firing a rocket at a civilian center in Gaza. Israel, of course, rejected that, then and now.
B) Why is the Gazan count so high?
The Gazan count is high because Hamas wants it to be high.
Hamas wants its own people to die.
Hamas will not win this war against Israel, but they might win the PR war. Hence, there are countless examples of the Palestinians faking deaths and massacres (i.e. Jenin), and faking deaths or lying about deaths in the current war (
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenf...e-names/).
Hamas PURPOSELY hides its weapons stockpiles in hospitals, mosques, and schools. As shown, it even hid its weapons in UN schools on three separate occasions (see my above link in the original post I made). Do you know how fucked up this is? Do you have any idea, how sick, twisted, and disgusting it is to use a group of people as mere points to win in a public relations campaign? Again, this is a war crime to do, for obvious reasons. Legally, Israel is not at fault for hitting these targets.
Oh, and did I mention that Israel warns civilians first? Can you fucking believe this? Israel not only flyers the area telling civilians to leave, but also calls the house directly and tells them to leave beforehand to avoid getting injured? This RUINS the element of surprise, but Israel does it anyways to preserve Palestinian life. How many armies in the history of warfare have done this? Hint: very few.
And when Israel goes out of its way to minimise civilian deaths, what does Hamas do?
Hamas sends people back inside the houses to die.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,...84,00.html
Why did Hamas reject the recent ceasefire when it will clearly lose? Hence, even Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah in the West Bank has asked: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014...ederated=1
(Aside: Abbas, the 'moderate', also wrote his PhD on Holocaust denial. This is what it has come to, quite sadly.)
It wants more of its own people to die.
(How many of you have heard of the 1800 Palestinians starved and murdered by Assad recently? Right... it's only a big deal when Israel is involved. How many of you know about the REAL apartheid against the Palestinians in Lebanon? Or in other Arab countries?
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3770/l...theid-laws
Seriously guys, look into the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan/Syria/Egypt/Lebanon some time. Quite the shocker (or is it?)).
C) Why is the Israeli count so low?
Iron Dome; Israel building bunkers for its citizens all these years to protect them while Hamas built tunnels to sneak into Israel for attacks; Israel values the life of its citizens. Simple.
Hence the now infamous Hamas slogan: "We love death more than you (the Jews) love life" (
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/11/...love-life/)
D) Why is it irrelevant?
In the Gulf War I the Iraqis took 20x more casualties than US and its allies, so does this make the US immoral for pushing Iraq out of Kuwait? How about when the British bombed Dresden? Is that to be equated with the German bombings of Coventry? Almost always, the loser of a war suffers a disproportionate number of deaths. And about the apparent third of those killed in Gaza being children, how many military targets do you think there were in Dresden? What was the strategic benefit of that bombing? Literally zero, except to crush the German people. (Fear not, I finish this point below.)
I currently live in London which is very pro-Palestinian. But if Britain hadn't used disproportional force against the Argentinian army in the Falkland Islands they would now be known as the Malvinas.
There is no such thing as proportionate war. In war, you want to win.
Final Thoughts
I'm not a cold, or heartless bastard. I truly feel terrible for the children that have died in the conflict -- it's not their fault. It is, however, the fault of Hamas, who was democratically elected by the people of Gaza. It is they who diverted funds to stockpile weapons instead of textbooks, who have used radical Islam to brainwash its citizens to the point where a mother celebrated the death of her young son, and who continue to aim to destroy Israel.
I guess this really comes down to the crux of the conflict: one side wants peace, and the other wants war. There is no end for Hamas until there is no Israel. If you were in Israel's shoes, how would you respond? Offer more land? Stop building settlements? After reading the Hamas charter, do you still believe there is no peace because of settlements?
Alas, it was once said that if the Arabs put down their weapons tomorrow there would be peace with Israel. If Israel put down its weapons there would be no Israel.
I'll leave it at that folks.
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