[Dusty]

(05-24-2014 12:59 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Obamacare is just an extension of feminism. It raises men's insurance rates to subsidize women's insurance rates.

I want less feminism in our country, not more.

[The Beast1]

I see Obamacare as a last ditch effect to prop up the GDP as the real economy is slowing down. Zerohedge has a few articles detailing how the massive influx of money spent on it is propping up the ailing GDP to hide the recession that is brewing underneath.

I'm all for healthcare reform, but what was given is pretty disgusting.

[It_is_my_time]

(05-24-2014 01:18 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

I see Obamacare as a last ditch effect to prop up the GDP as the real economy is slowing down. Zerohedge has a few articles detailing how the massive influx of money spent on it is propping up the ailing GDP to hide the recession that is brewing underneath.

I'm all for healthcare reform, but what was given is pretty disgusting.

IMO, the rollout was telling for how this will "work".

The websites cost probably 10 to 20 times more than if they were created in the private sector rather than by govt. contractors. Then they didn't even work. 6 months later they still have problems.

That isn't even using Obamacare, that is just signing up for it.

Maybe after the 2014 election, if Obama becomes a lame duck president, they can get most of it thrown out. But I think it is a pipe dream. I think it is here to stay, until it completely fails. And we will all suffer the consequences of a 2,700 page bill that no one read and was passed by the National Organization for Women backed Democrats.

[Sp5]

(05-24-2014 09:49 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-24-2014 04:50 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Unless you're a Social Darwinist, you probably agree that people should get health care, even if they are too old, retarded, crazy or crippled to work. It would seem to be a step backwards in human development to have people dying of appendicitis because they could not pay for the surgery. On the other hand, why pay $500,000 for a heart transplant for an 85 year old guy?

Social Darwinism is necessary to a certain extent. You cannot forever use the strong to support the weak.

Eventually the strong run out of resources or fail to breed in sufficient numbers to support the weak, or the weak simply outbreed the strong.

Dysgenics is real and it's happening at a breakneck pace in America. It is part of the reason America is doomed to go broke at current trends.

I support free healthcare for children, which is really cheap and has a large return on investment, but to say older people have some kind of right to healthcare is just nonsense. Fully functional adults should be expected to take care of themselves.

What perplexes me more than anything is that you have people who claim to be atheists running our government, yet they also claim people have fundamental rights. What are they talking about?

Without God, the only policy that makes sense is utilitarianism. Maximize pleasure, minimize pain. Giving healthcare only to children accomplishes this, because children just need some vaccines, a bit of care from the mother, and bam they are good to go for nearly 60 years after reaching adulthood.

Supporting some guy with 1 million dollar treatments so he can live for another 2 years is an absurd waste of public resources.

Of course I agree that massive expenditures for geriatrics is wasteful. I might feel different about that in a few years, though. And there's often some guy that digs in with the doctors and makes them keep grandma going another miserable week at the price of $200,000. Of course cost control was derided as "death panels."

Genetics is not that simple. There are plenty of children of poor parents with Mensa level IQs, so money is no measure of the "strong" or the "weak." Unfortunately, even the very bright poor do not always get the breaks that a dull rich kid gets.

[speakeasy]

(05-24-2014 09:51 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Additionally, if you truly believe that men should be in control of a country, universal healthcare for everyone just means women need men even less. Women should be expected to pay for their own shit or find a man who will pay for them.

What makes you think women don't pay taxes? Are you aware that women are now the majority in the workforce and have a lower unemployment rate and higher educational attainment? I'm not cheer leading female dominance, I'm just saying that you talk like women are parasitical.

(05-24-2014 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

That opposite of what you said is true.

In the old days, only the most pussy of men kept a job for the health insurance.

Not when you've got a wife and kids.

Quote:

Women are the ones who need healthcare the most, which means they would keep the job for the health insurance.

Do you have any stats on that? That women use healthcare more than men? That is outside of childbirth which is obviously a necessity for society.

Quote:

In Obama's new America, now EVERYONE needs to keep their job, because healthcare is insanely expensive, and you get fined for not having health insurance.

If you have low income you don't get fined. I'm a freelancer, I pay my own. And my healthcare dropped for similar coverage.

I think we'd be better off if we unhinged employment health coverage altogether. Ultimately you are still paying for your coverage with an employer, it just comes out of your paycheck and you make less than you otherwise would. You also don't have a choice of what provider your employer signs up for. It makes things like a career change more difficult. Nobody should have to panic about their health if they get laid off a job. Social Darwinism sounds great in theory, until you end up the one that gets layed-off and end up having a ruptured appendix. Being unfortunate doesn't mean you are lazy or a social parasite. Anyone can fall on hard times.

Quote:

However, getting a full-time job with benefits is now harder than ever, thanks to Obama's anti-business policies

What specific legislation has Obama passed that is anti-business?

[Switch]

I don't understand why the US doesn't stop spending billions of dollars on the military and take some of that money and just give everybody free healthcare. It would save a lot more lives than preventing terrorism or whatever the heck we're doing in the middle East these days.

[RexImperator]

Sometimes markets work and sometimes they fail to produce a good outcome. Look at how the drug companies (i.e. Pfizer) shut down the development of antibiotics just as nightmarish resistant bacteria are on the rise. Antibiotics, used once, just aren't that profitable compared to therapeutic drugs you take for life.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

(05-24-2014 10:20 AM)Sawyer Wrote:  

Re: Undocumented workers and the medical system

"Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985, hospitals are obligated to treat the uninsured without reimbursement."

"According to the report, between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services became unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals verge on closure, the author writes."

Link

I read the actual report this article was based on. It was about as reliable as sensationalist "journalism". It was written by a lawyer and used the exact same tactics as the article, scary anecdotes tenuously linked to some statistics. There was no real quantitative analysis.

How much are the healthcare costs of immigrants costing the US taxpayer and private hospitals? How much are they paying towards healthcare in taxes? If there's a huge difference there and it's significant compared to total US healthcare spending then we can call them the elephant in the room. So far, I can't find any reliable numbers for this. The estimates either come from anti-immigrant groups or pro-immigrant leftists.

There are about 15 million illegal immigrants in the US. If we assume all of them lack health insurance and their yearly average healthcare costs are $10,000, then that's a cost of $150B per year to treat illegals. Let's double this number to $300B to cover healthcare costs of their children. That's $300B vs. about $2.5T in total US healthcare spending. It's definitely not a trivial expense and it does border on being significant but all of my assumptions tend to increase the cost to treat immigrants versus what is probably reasonable.

US per capita healthcare costs are closer to $8,500 annually. Illegal immigrants certainly cost less than this because they tend to be younger. Even Hispanics with chronic conditions such as diabetes tend to be less expensive to treat than non-Hispanics with the same conditions.
For sure, many illegals manage to get social security numbers and do end up paying taxes and getting health insurance so my assumption of 100% uninsured is definitely wrong.

[darklightdispatch]

(05-24-2014 09:51 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Additionally, if you truly believe that men should be in control of a country, universal healthcare for everyone just means women need men even less. Women should be expected to pay for their own shit or find a man who will pay for them.

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Universal healthcare is a fairly significant way of removing men from society and replacing them with the government. Men will still be the principal suppliers of healthcare via taxes, but they will have zero authority over (or even knowledge of) who they're working to support. In the long run, expect this to contribute to male disengagement from society.

[bacon]

In this clip the architect behind Obamacare, Johathan Gruber, openly talks about the deception involved in getting Obamacare passed and the stupidity of the American people.

[The_CEO]

Easy to comparison shop plans here:

https://www.healthsherpa.com/

[Dr. Howard]

(11-11-2014 09:37 PM)bacon Wrote:  

In this clip the architect behind Obamacare, Johathan Gruber, openly talks about the deception involved in getting Obamacare passed and the stupidity of the American people.

If this guy was 20 years younger he'd work for Gawker. What a pure example of 'the end justifies the means'.

[Dr. Howard]

(11-12-2014 12:58 AM)The_CEO Wrote:  

Easy to comparison shop plans here:

https://www.healthsherpa.com/

good site, though there are also a few religious loopholes I'm planning to share with the forum in january. $150/month for tits deluxe and $45/month for very basic coverage for the church going members of the RVF.

You read those numbers right, just waiting on the year to close to see if the loopholes survive the gov't spending bill.

[heavy]

My sister, single mother of 3, was told by her insurance guy he basically can't sign her up for a normal plan because through the gov't plan, for $5 per child and a couple hundred per month for herself, she can get EXCELLENT health coverage including free doctor and dental visits and cheap scripts.

She makes really good money (don't wanna disclose) as a part-time nurse.

Complete separation of resource usage and cost. If that doesn't concern you I don't know what would.

[heavy]

Sister update...this is her situation:

"I can't bring myself to apply for $5 a month state healthcare insurance which my kids qualify for next year. It's what's killing our country.
It'll make me not want an income over 52k a year, and it will eventually teach my kids they don't need to pay for healthcare. It's a liberal trap and it's a big draw.
Afraid my principles are gonna win out. Foolishly principled.
I literally can't bring myself to finish the applications. Maybe in a day or two. I kept putting it off. Now I know why I'm putting it off.
I actually have no choice. Next year our government forces the state insurance on anyone in my demographic who makes below 52k. I CANT buy their insurance separately."

What a great system. So even though she wants to be a more productive member of society, even though she wants to teach her kids the value of hard work and a dollar....the system is going against that. Bold applied by me of course.

Edit: Of course I said "yep, foolish, just take it". But she's more bull-headed than me. And of course she considers the lesson for her girls.

[Dr. Howard]

(11-24-2014 09:05 AM)heavy Wrote:  

Sister update...this is her situation:

"I can't bring myself to apply for $5 a month state healthcare insurance which my kids qualify for next year. It's what's killing our country.
It'll make me not want an income over 52k a year, and it will eventually teach my kids they don't need to pay for healthcare. It's a liberal trap and it's a big draw.
Afraid my principles are gonna win out. Foolishly principled.
I literally can't bring myself to finish the applications. Maybe in a day or two. I kept putting it off. Now I know why I'm putting it off.
I actually have no choice. Next year our government forces the state insurance on anyone in my demographic who makes below 52k. I CANT buy their insurance separately."

What a great system. So even though she wants to be a more productive member of society, even though she wants to teach her kids the value of hard work and a dollar....the system is going against that. Bold applied by me of course.

Edit: Of course I said "yep, foolish, just take it". But she's more bull-headed than me. And of course she considers the lesson for her girls.

Is she in a state that agreed to expand medicare?

[DjembaDjemba]

I love my Canadian free healthcare system. The downsides are wait times, but the upside is everything else. I don't have to worry about going bankrupt from the medical bills if I get a serious illness. If I fall and break my leg I get patched up for a total cost of $0.00. If some bitch burns me I can get get the dick zits zapped off for $0.00, and my medicines would be covered by my work plan (if I work for an employer), minus a deductable of 10%.

Whats insane is how Americans pay $500-600 a month for some bullshit plan full of holes while the rest of the developed world pays nothing. And what's amusing is you'll say "you pay more taxes". However we don't, depending on the state it's very likely we pay the same taxes.

[Sonsowey]

^Bro you must be a beta.

[catoblepa]

don't know about Obamacare specifically but I'm pro free healthcare, I'm still an eurofag after all

[It_is_my_time]

(11-24-2014 12:08 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

I love my Canadian free healthcare system. The downsides are wait times, but the upside is everything else. I don't have to worry about going bankrupt from the medical bills if I get a serious illness. If I fall and break my leg I get patched up for a total cost of $0.00. If some bitch burns me I can get get the dick zits zapped off for $0.00, and my medicines would be covered by my work plan (if I work for an employer), minus a deductable of 10%.

Whats insane is how Americans pay $500-600 a month for some bullshit plan full of holes while the rest of the developed world pays nothing. And what's amusing is you'll say "you pay more taxes". However we don't, depending on the state it's very likely we pay the same taxes.

LOL, you pay for it. You pay for it, no matter what you want covered. You have no choice. It costs you I am guessing an extra 10% of your income in taxes.

And your wait time is beyond silly. The average ACL wait time in the USA is 4 weeks, and in Canada it is 39 weeks. But permanent damage starts to set in after 12 weeks.

It really is not complex. Govt. is inefficient. Go to the DMV and watch a bunch of govt. workers in bad moods work as slowly as possible with complete hate for their job. It matters not, they have no competition, they don't have to try above the minimum effort. So the more the govt. runs/controls, the poorer the people will be and the worse the service is.

[philosophical_recovery]

How come the cost of health care in the US continues to increase, but the cost of technology in other industries has gone down? For example, the cost of computer hardware had dropped incredibly, and the capability has gone up by orders of magnitude, from a couple decades ago.

[Dr. Howard]

(11-24-2014 12:08 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  

I love my Canadian free healthcare system. The downsides are wait times, but the upside is everything else. I don't have to worry about going bankrupt from the medical bills if I get a serious illness. If I fall and break my leg I get patched up for a total cost of $0.00. If some bitch burns me I can get get the dick zits zapped off for $0.00, and my medicines would be covered by my work plan (if I work for an employer), minus a deductable of 10%.

Whats insane is how Americans pay $500-600 a month for some bullshit plan full of holes while the rest of the developed world pays nothing. And what's amusing is you'll say "you pay more taxes". However we don't, depending on the state it's very likely we pay the same taxes.

I saved $5k in tax in my first year moving from Canada to America. My US Federal tax bracket is %15 my state tax rate is %0 and 10% sales tax (In Canada it would be %22federal 9.15%provincial 1% health surcharge and 15% sales tax...so 25% vs. 37%). I buy my gas for about 2/3 the price of my relatives in Toronto and pay 1/4 the property tax as well.

I pay ~$500 per month for health insurance for my entire family ($150 if I were single) with no crazy cost sharing and a $500 deductible to keep hypochondriacs out of urgent care, I can go to any doctor I want and can usually get into a family doctor the next day and half about a 30 minute wait to get into urgent care. The health plan i had before this one also used to pay for my gym membership and split the cost of farmers market vegetables. Obamacare has gone a long way to taking away many of these options, vs making it better.

In America if some idiot wants to spend his paycheck on an Xbox360 instead of health and car insurance, he can do it. If he gets into a car wreck and is sued into eternity by the other party and can't afford his own physical thereapy...he chose to take on that risk.

In Canada, everyone gets to pay for all of the idiots. Eat cheetos all day, smoke cigarettes and never exercise? Don't worry taxes will pay your treatment. Drive drunk and kill a family? Don't worry, everyone is mandated to have expensive tits deluxe auto policies...the government took care of that. Want to earn $90k/year as a grade school teacher...don't worry, taxes will pay for that. You're an indian? don't worry, we'll pay for you to huff gas because we feel bad that your grandma went to a residential school.

In Canada you are asked to take care of everyone, In America you are asked to take care of yourself. The flipside of freedom is personal responsibility.

PS. I forgot about the Ontario Surtax of 20% on tax over $4418 which is anal rape on income over $85k.

[It_is_my_time]

(11-11-2014 09:37 PM)bacon Wrote:  

In this clip the architect behind Obamacare, Johathan Gruber, openly talks about the deception involved in getting Obamacare passed and the stupidity of the American people.

How are people still voting they are for Obamacare when the guy who designed it admitted it will not work?

[MidWest]

The reason why many people outside the U.S thinks our system sucks is because of this guy:

^^^^^ They see that movie and think "Good God those Americans I feel so sorry for them"


Quite honestly though I haven't really been affected by this Obamacare thing. I mean I still have my same health insurance before the law came about. I also have a separate package I get in college. I'll admit though that health care costs in the U.S. are very high and something needs to be done about that.

[placer]

I am for Obamacare. When I got laid off, enrolling for Obamacare cost less than half the price of getting comparable coverage via Cobra.