I’m about to describe a situation totally alien to you. To be honest, I’m not entirely sure that you can help me because the reality that I live in is far removed from anything you’ve likely ever experienced. Nonetheless, human nature is human nature and so I’m hoping that your knowledge of human nature will give me some insight into my problem.
I’m a conservative Muslim guy who was born and raised in North America (no I don’t have a massive beard and I don’t wear a kufi everywhere). In Islam, premarital relationships are obviously forbidden; in fact it is to the extent that even physically touching a non-family member of the opposite sex is sinful. Masturbation and pornography are also considered sinful. Living in a North American context where girls are half-naked on the streets, on TV and in movies, you can imagine how difficult trying to maintain my chastity has been. I’ve suffered an existence incomprehensible to even the most frustrated of average chumps. Sometimes my life feels like a dialogue between Sméagol and Gollum on whether they should kill Frodo in his sleep and take the Ring. “When will this be over? I can’t go any longer. THE THIRST. THE THIRST IS TOO GRE – No! I must be a good little Muslim boy and do what I’ve been taught; I must maintain my chastity until I graduate from a good university, get a stable income and then marry a well-mannered religious virgin wife who will respect me as head of our household.”
I’m now in my 3rd year of university and it will take me at least another 4 years before I have some semblance of financial stability such that I could get married. I don’t think I can wait that long and thus I have come to your feet in desperation seeking some advice.
There is this pretty Muslim girl that I like, she’s my older sister’s friend’s younger sister. She’s just entered university. I won’t go into my whole life story here, but basically this girl is very interested in me, to the point where she even told my sister to tell me that if I was thinking of getting married to consider her. Now the significance of this cannot be overstated; you see in the Muslim community a girl risks a lot by making the first official move. I should make clear, according to the Shariah there is nothing wrong with a woman approaching (in fact the Prophet Muhammad’s first wife Khadija proposed to him and he remained monogamous with her until her death 28 years later.) Culturally, however, it’s a considered VERY taboo. In the warped minds of our immigrant elders, a girl approaching is like her waving a flag and shouting “I’M DESPERATE, WILL ANYONE MARRY ME?!” Of course I don’t think along these lines, but I wanted to emphasize that she took a risk in approaching me not only because I might reject her, but because if I was a loud mouth and told the world then it would really tarnish her name.
All of this happened before I read up on Game, and in retrospect it is clear to me now that certain actions of mine inadvertently served as DHVs. I basically played very very watered down Game correctly around her, so I guess I have a bit of natural talent in me that was never expressed in my loser high school days due to my religion. I say that very modestly; I am far from “good with women,” but perhaps I have I’m good with a certain type of woman (i.e. Muslim girls who wear a hijab and thus have never been cold approached before in their life, and who are looking for a religious Muslim man).
“Great,” you might be thinking. “You got the girl to chase you, what’s the problem? Marry her already!” Except one problem, and this is why I have come to you now. You see, marriage in the Muslim community is a family affair. My problem is her father. The issue is that according to Islam one of the duties of the husband is to financially support his wife and the duty of the wife is to sexually satisfy her husband. Now the girl is totally down to forgo her some of her rights for a couple of years until I get financial stability while maintaining her end of the bargain. This is not unheard of in the Muslim community, but it is uncommon. The problem is that her father is not down for that arrangement; he’s not going to risk the future of his little girl on “potential.” I have yet to approach her father, but I know this problem exists because she herself mentioned it. Plus, my sister is friends with their family (they have like a bunch of girls, my sister knows all of them) and this issue has come up in past for them. In fact a buddy of mine (also still in school) proposed to one of the girls and was shot down because of the financial stability issue. It felt like being on the frontlines and feeling your friend get shot in the face by an enemy bullet that you know could have easily hit you if the enemy soldier had just tilted his rifle an inch.
Basically this game is bigger than the girl herself; I have to game her entirely family and most importantly her father. I’d like your advice on how to do this, but I’ll also include some relevant advantages and obstacles.
Obstacles
•The obvious; they are dead set on requiring a man with a steady job IN ADDITION to being very religious and practising, coming from a good family, and a whole bunch of other criteria.
•Her father works abroad is home only a few weeks every year. This incidentally makes her oldest brother the resident AMOG, but gaining his favour will only indirectly gain favour with the father. It’s difficult to say whether that will be enough to get the father to budge.
•They have rejected guys that according to their strict criteria would seem like better prospects than me. Maybe I’m just undervaluing myself though.
•The target girl’s sisters know that she likes me, but the girl is too afraid to bring it up to her parents/her oldest brother because she thinks they’ll shoot down her suggestion.
•Me and the girl’s communication is very limited and we haven’t talked about this beyond her message which was sent through my sister in which she expressed her initial interest.
•Traditionally game tactics are basically moves by which the man attempts to project high value, while he may or may not actually possess that value. With a father who is considering the future of his daughter’s life, it is difficult to feign value; you actually have to have high value. And if he considers a man without a steady job of lower value; how exactly do I project an image of high value?
Advantages
•My sister is friends with all of the daughters of the target family
•My father is really good friends and very well liked by the target father, as well as the eldest son (i.e. the current AMOG)
•I demonstrated that I am really good with kids and so the AMOG’s wife likes me because her 3 year old son always sings my praises in front of her. This also gave me higher value with her sisters and so overall within the target girl’s Female Social Matrix.
oI don’t think I have yet had a positive affect on the girl’s mother
•The eldest son really likes me and thinks fairly well of me. I see him fairly often.
•One of the daughters of said family has reached her 30’s while still being unmarried (they rejected the proposals that came her way, but I don’t know the details of her life story.) This has instilled a sense of fear in the younger daughters and presumably the family because they realize that rejecting an offer could mean a bleak future.
•Outside of the money issue, I’m actually considered somewhat high value in the Muslim community due to many factors (practising, involved in organizing youth events, knowledgeable, good family etc.) I do fit the bill for a lot of the things that religious conservatives screen for in spouse selection.
Every advantage and obstacle I’ve listed here has occurred before I read about Game; meaning all of this happened just naturally. As you can see, a good deal of her family already likes me. But I don’t feel like I’m in a position to go for the kill, her father doesn’t even know my name and he has very strict ideas about marriage, and I think his oldest son, even though he really likes me, is on the same boat as the father.
Basically I have to convince her oldest brother and her father that it is in the girl’s best interest to marry me before I’ve attained financial stability. How do I go about this? This doesn’t necessarily have to be a 1 approach thing, I see the AMOG fairly regularly although I’ve only interacted with the father like once. I feel like I have to convince them non-verbally of this before I can go in for a verbal approach. I do have a logical argument as to why it’s in their best interest (I really believe it is), but my gut tells me it won’t fly because they aren’t going to be ready to listen to that kind of talk. Especially coming from a young man, I mean I don’t know what it’s like to be a father, they’d think. So what advice can you give me for exhibiting non-verbal cues that would lead them to the belief that it is in their best interest to marry their daughter to me?
What about during the actual approach? Any body language tips? When you go for a girl you typically want to project alpha male dominance; is it the same when approaching her father who himself is the alpha of his family (or in his absence his eldest son)? Would this cause him to feel threatened? At the same time if I display submissiveness, isn’t that going to make him trust me even less because then it might further the image that I am incapable of taking care of the girl?
Is there any way for me to get the mother involved and to use the girl’s Female Social Matrix to my advantage?
Just writing this has already helped me organize my thoughts a lot better. If you have any insights I’d appreciate it.
Also I'm not a paid member so I probably won't have access to this forum to reply to further questions for very long. But I will read the advice.
I’m a conservative Muslim guy who was born and raised in North America (no I don’t have a massive beard and I don’t wear a kufi everywhere). In Islam, premarital relationships are obviously forbidden; in fact it is to the extent that even physically touching a non-family member of the opposite sex is sinful. Masturbation and pornography are also considered sinful. Living in a North American context where girls are half-naked on the streets, on TV and in movies, you can imagine how difficult trying to maintain my chastity has been. I’ve suffered an existence incomprehensible to even the most frustrated of average chumps. Sometimes my life feels like a dialogue between Sméagol and Gollum on whether they should kill Frodo in his sleep and take the Ring. “When will this be over? I can’t go any longer. THE THIRST. THE THIRST IS TOO GRE – No! I must be a good little Muslim boy and do what I’ve been taught; I must maintain my chastity until I graduate from a good university, get a stable income and then marry a well-mannered religious virgin wife who will respect me as head of our household.”
I’m now in my 3rd year of university and it will take me at least another 4 years before I have some semblance of financial stability such that I could get married. I don’t think I can wait that long and thus I have come to your feet in desperation seeking some advice.
There is this pretty Muslim girl that I like, she’s my older sister’s friend’s younger sister. She’s just entered university. I won’t go into my whole life story here, but basically this girl is very interested in me, to the point where she even told my sister to tell me that if I was thinking of getting married to consider her. Now the significance of this cannot be overstated; you see in the Muslim community a girl risks a lot by making the first official move. I should make clear, according to the Shariah there is nothing wrong with a woman approaching (in fact the Prophet Muhammad’s first wife Khadija proposed to him and he remained monogamous with her until her death 28 years later.) Culturally, however, it’s a considered VERY taboo. In the warped minds of our immigrant elders, a girl approaching is like her waving a flag and shouting “I’M DESPERATE, WILL ANYONE MARRY ME?!” Of course I don’t think along these lines, but I wanted to emphasize that she took a risk in approaching me not only because I might reject her, but because if I was a loud mouth and told the world then it would really tarnish her name.
All of this happened before I read up on Game, and in retrospect it is clear to me now that certain actions of mine inadvertently served as DHVs. I basically played very very watered down Game correctly around her, so I guess I have a bit of natural talent in me that was never expressed in my loser high school days due to my religion. I say that very modestly; I am far from “good with women,” but perhaps I have I’m good with a certain type of woman (i.e. Muslim girls who wear a hijab and thus have never been cold approached before in their life, and who are looking for a religious Muslim man).
“Great,” you might be thinking. “You got the girl to chase you, what’s the problem? Marry her already!” Except one problem, and this is why I have come to you now. You see, marriage in the Muslim community is a family affair. My problem is her father. The issue is that according to Islam one of the duties of the husband is to financially support his wife and the duty of the wife is to sexually satisfy her husband. Now the girl is totally down to forgo her some of her rights for a couple of years until I get financial stability while maintaining her end of the bargain. This is not unheard of in the Muslim community, but it is uncommon. The problem is that her father is not down for that arrangement; he’s not going to risk the future of his little girl on “potential.” I have yet to approach her father, but I know this problem exists because she herself mentioned it. Plus, my sister is friends with their family (they have like a bunch of girls, my sister knows all of them) and this issue has come up in past for them. In fact a buddy of mine (also still in school) proposed to one of the girls and was shot down because of the financial stability issue. It felt like being on the frontlines and feeling your friend get shot in the face by an enemy bullet that you know could have easily hit you if the enemy soldier had just tilted his rifle an inch.
Basically this game is bigger than the girl herself; I have to game her entirely family and most importantly her father. I’d like your advice on how to do this, but I’ll also include some relevant advantages and obstacles.
Obstacles
•The obvious; they are dead set on requiring a man with a steady job IN ADDITION to being very religious and practising, coming from a good family, and a whole bunch of other criteria.
•Her father works abroad is home only a few weeks every year. This incidentally makes her oldest brother the resident AMOG, but gaining his favour will only indirectly gain favour with the father. It’s difficult to say whether that will be enough to get the father to budge.
•They have rejected guys that according to their strict criteria would seem like better prospects than me. Maybe I’m just undervaluing myself though.
•The target girl’s sisters know that she likes me, but the girl is too afraid to bring it up to her parents/her oldest brother because she thinks they’ll shoot down her suggestion.
•Me and the girl’s communication is very limited and we haven’t talked about this beyond her message which was sent through my sister in which she expressed her initial interest.
•Traditionally game tactics are basically moves by which the man attempts to project high value, while he may or may not actually possess that value. With a father who is considering the future of his daughter’s life, it is difficult to feign value; you actually have to have high value. And if he considers a man without a steady job of lower value; how exactly do I project an image of high value?
Advantages
•My sister is friends with all of the daughters of the target family
•My father is really good friends and very well liked by the target father, as well as the eldest son (i.e. the current AMOG)
•I demonstrated that I am really good with kids and so the AMOG’s wife likes me because her 3 year old son always sings my praises in front of her. This also gave me higher value with her sisters and so overall within the target girl’s Female Social Matrix.
oI don’t think I have yet had a positive affect on the girl’s mother
•The eldest son really likes me and thinks fairly well of me. I see him fairly often.
•One of the daughters of said family has reached her 30’s while still being unmarried (they rejected the proposals that came her way, but I don’t know the details of her life story.) This has instilled a sense of fear in the younger daughters and presumably the family because they realize that rejecting an offer could mean a bleak future.
•Outside of the money issue, I’m actually considered somewhat high value in the Muslim community due to many factors (practising, involved in organizing youth events, knowledgeable, good family etc.) I do fit the bill for a lot of the things that religious conservatives screen for in spouse selection.
Every advantage and obstacle I’ve listed here has occurred before I read about Game; meaning all of this happened just naturally. As you can see, a good deal of her family already likes me. But I don’t feel like I’m in a position to go for the kill, her father doesn’t even know my name and he has very strict ideas about marriage, and I think his oldest son, even though he really likes me, is on the same boat as the father.
Basically I have to convince her oldest brother and her father that it is in the girl’s best interest to marry me before I’ve attained financial stability. How do I go about this? This doesn’t necessarily have to be a 1 approach thing, I see the AMOG fairly regularly although I’ve only interacted with the father like once. I feel like I have to convince them non-verbally of this before I can go in for a verbal approach. I do have a logical argument as to why it’s in their best interest (I really believe it is), but my gut tells me it won’t fly because they aren’t going to be ready to listen to that kind of talk. Especially coming from a young man, I mean I don’t know what it’s like to be a father, they’d think. So what advice can you give me for exhibiting non-verbal cues that would lead them to the belief that it is in their best interest to marry their daughter to me?
What about during the actual approach? Any body language tips? When you go for a girl you typically want to project alpha male dominance; is it the same when approaching her father who himself is the alpha of his family (or in his absence his eldest son)? Would this cause him to feel threatened? At the same time if I display submissiveness, isn’t that going to make him trust me even less because then it might further the image that I am incapable of taking care of the girl?
Is there any way for me to get the mother involved and to use the girl’s Female Social Matrix to my advantage?
Just writing this has already helped me organize my thoughts a lot better. If you have any insights I’d appreciate it.
Also I'm not a paid member so I probably won't have access to this forum to reply to further questions for very long. But I will read the advice.
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