Quote: (04-14-2014 01:46 PM)Maciano Wrote:
What's dishonest is first arguing Putin wasn't hot for E-Ukraine from the get-go & Crimea was a historical wrong set right, and now arguing Ukraine & West provoked Russian aggression so now must bleed for their sins.
They did not provoke Russian aggression, they provoked Russian response. Now we may argue that soft power response was possible, but soft power is privilege (as i argued earlier), not an option. Soft power only works when no one challenges hard power. By assuming Russian will buy western guarantees in Crimea, they challenged Russia's determination to utilize real military power.
Russians did not have option to chose when to react in Crimea. They could have done it now or never. Because later, when Kiev would suddenly in couple of years cancel lease of Sevastopol for blabla reasons, it would be too late to intervene.
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Russia has a history of treating its neighbours like shit, ranging from treating them like satellite states to all-out mass murder for some kooky cause their leaders were hot for at the time. Ukraine, Baltics, Poland, etc. don't fear their hegemonic neighbour for nothing. That's why NATO's expanding: these countries WANT to be in NATO, because it sucks so much to be in Russia's sphere of influence.
I don't argue Polish or Baltic desires to be members of NATO. However, they suffered at the hands of Germans too, so "yeah Russians treated them badly" is not a valid argument. Because Germans treated them badly X3, and yet they are in NATO. It's interest and ideology. Enemy of that ideology is Russia too (they way they perceive it, and Poles are quite passionately bitter and hateful towards Russians). Just check their newspaper headlines.
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I commend the Russians for straightening themselves out after communism and feel bad the way their country got plundered in the 90s, but what's happening now is not justifiable.
From perspective of a Swiss or Chinese yes. From perspective of American and Russian, it is very justifiable.
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The Russians should take some lessons in humility from the Germans,
Germans cannot afford anything else but to be humble, because of their very poor strategic position. Russians don't want to be humble, particularly not towards satellite states of Eastern Europe.
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they've shown sincere regret in word and deed, real change towards their neighbours after '45
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Well, they did bomb Yugoslavia. And are still quite proud about it. Change is rather cosmetic.
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The Russians never showed any humility for those they wronged or aggressed against. They impoverished half of the European continent for their moronic mix of imperialism, Stalinism and similar shit that never did anyone any good. There's a reason why a country like Poland is way behind Belgium.
Show me one, just one nation that showed humility, and that it did not do so because it was defeated. Germany was defeated, so was Japan, so was Serbia, so was Italy, so were Hutu in Rwanda etc etc. America never showed any regret or humility for it's deeds. Because America never lost. So yeah, if i was landlocked country in central Europe, i would show humility too.
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Yeah, our media is a laughable puppet show who focus on Putin's harsh line re gays, Greenpeace et al, but that's missing the other show that's playing: real Russian aggression. And it must be stopped harshly.
Give me one good reason to stop Russian aggression. And now i don't want "because it is morally good" kind of justification. I want benefits.
And I'm not talking only about Russians. Give me one good reason to stop Americans in Afghanistan, give me a good reason to stop French in Africa.
I don't want west to defeat Russia, or Russia to defeat west. For my own reasons, some of them selfish, but i don't. I don't further western expansion into EE. West wants to expand in Africa or Middle East ? Fine, go ahead.