[speakeasy]

^^^ Groups like Indians may be successful in the US because of selection bias in which ones are allowed to immigrate. Poor Mexicans and Central Americas can walk across the border, but if you're Indian, the only way here is a very expensive plane ticket which is out of reach for most the population. Thus those that make it here will be skimmed off the more educated and well-off demographic.

If it was a matter of Indians being smart and industrious, then India should be a first world country.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(01-29-2014 04:13 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

^^^ Groups like Indians may be successful in the US because of selection bias in which ones are allowed to immigrate. Poor Mexicans and Central Americas can walk across the border, but if you're Indian, the only way here is a very expensive plane ticket which is out of reach for most the population. Thus those that make it here will be skimmed off the more educated and well-off demographic.

If it was a matter of Indians being smart and industrious, then India should be a first world country.

India is a very young country and has over 1 billion people. Even though we call anyone from there an "Indian," the truth is it's an extremely ethnically diverse country (over 2,000 dif ethnic groups), has a whole host of religions, and only became a single nation state in 1947. I think the fact that it has been able to maintain a democracy - the world's largest - in light of all of that craziness is pretty remarkable. Consider the fact that unlike the US, which has friendly neighbors, India is surrounded by antagonistic states actively seeking to destabilize it (i.e. Pakistan, and even China).

This is a short informative clip about the place that's worth watching.

Cubans are also a highly successful minority group. They currently have three US senators in three different states (wildly disproportionate to the actual number of Cuban-Americans), and slightly more members in the house of representatives. They also have many people in high-level state and federal government positions, as well as being extremely successful in business. They have the highest income and educational attainment of any hispanic group, and the ones born in the US surpass Caucasian-Americans in both of those categories.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Just a quick word about the so-called free market.

If someone is setting the rules and can hire some people at minimum wage but others at below, that's not a free market.

That's a rigged market. A market that's being deliberately manipulated so those in charge can avoid the labor laws our grandparents fought for.

The fact that the politicians and business tycoons who run this racket then turn around and BLAME the very citizens they're screwing for "racism" is beyond immoral. On top of that, the citizens being accused of "racism" are getting accused when they point out others have broken the law by entering the country illegally.

What kind of a topsy-turvy situation is this? It's getting more like a Shakespeare farce than reality.

As I said earlier, the real racist is the one who is paying the below-poverty wages, not the one who is pointing that out.

[Menace]

The Indians that come to the US are the elite of the Indian population and are NOT representative of the average or even slightly above average Indian. I believe this is often generally true of immigrants from non-bordering countries unless they got in via some kind of asylum claim.

[speakeasy]

The thing with the Cubans is that it was mostly the white, wealthy Cubans that fled Castro and had everything to lose under Marxism. These white Cubans were also extremely racist against black Cubans. The ones that came here were the ones who were well off in Cuba. Same thing with Persians. They are tons of rich Persians in LA. They were the elite that fled the Islamic Revolution. And they had a lot of money.

[Suits]

(01-29-2014 05:03 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Just a quick word about the so-called free market.

If someone is setting the rules and can hire some people at minimum wage but others at below, that's not a free market.

What's stopping Americans from working illegally under-the-table for below-minimum-wage payments?

Quote:

That's a rigged market. A market that's being deliberately manipulated so those in charge can avoid the labor laws our grandparents fought for.

True, but reality is a bitch.

Quote:

On top of that, the citizens being accused of "racism" are getting accused when they point out others have broken the law by entering the country illegally.

Which law currently on the books is being violated by the undocumented entry of these non-documented immigrants?

Quote:

As I said earlier, the real racist is the one who is paying the below-poverty wages, not the one who is pointing that out.

How is giving poor Mexicans a much desired job racist? America has always been a place where people who were willing to work hard could come to to improve their chances of success.

It is the communists who have a problem with success occurring in proportion to a man's effort.

These hard working Mexicans understand the American dream well.

That being said, it really is unfair to those you strive to enter and work in the US legitimately.

We gotta do something about the way they keep sneaking in.

[speakeasy]

^^^ Is suits just trolling us with this libertarian pipe dream?

[draguer]

Being outside of the US, all I generally hear on this is soundbites on the media so it's interesting to hear different perspectives.

[durangotang]

(01-29-2014 06:18 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

^^^ Is suits just trolling us with this libertarian pipe dream?

Libertarians remind me of Ray from Rain Man. You can show them a video like the one posted above in Los Angeles where an entire culture and civilization has been replaced in 50 years time, and they keep mumbling about the free market, as if there is nothing else in life besides "rational self-interest" and hedonism at the cheapest price point. Your culture, language, ethnic group, traditions and future can disappear, but hey you got your lawn mown for 1/2 price, so that's rational because just think of how much pleasure can be bought with the price difference. It's tragic.

Just watch the following scene, and every time Ray mentions buying his "boxers at K-Mart," substitute those words with "free market" and you'll understand the totality of most libertarians thought process:

[Slim Shady]

(01-29-2014 04:13 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

^^^ Groups like Indians may be successful in the US because of selection bias in which ones are allowed to immigrate. Poor Mexicans and Central Americas can walk across the border, but if you're Indian, the only way here is a very expensive plane ticket which is out of reach for most the population. Thus those that make it here will be skimmed off the more educated and well-off demographic.

If it was a matter of Indians being smart and industrious, then India should be a first world country.

I discuss 3 main issues here:

1)There has been a craziness in India about coming to India. This was huge in the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc, but thankfully it is a bit lower today. People would go back to visit India, and boast and amaze their relatives about the greatness of this country. People are learning the truth that America may no more be the greatest nation in the world/provide the greatest lifestyle.

Still, the proportion of Indian immigrants who are not Doctors or Scientists, or in Finance, etc , who are poor/lower-middle class, who take on massive massive debts, sell their life, just to get to this country is still great with delusional dreams.

Even immigrants is high paying white collar jobs with college degrees etc have to do the same, or more work than their "Citizen" colleagues, but for much lower pay. they work on H1-B visas, and bust their ass for years, often leaving their families back home, waiting for a green card so that they can get equal(ish) pay. Being someone from a highly competitive country like India (and probably China, etc) it takes MUCH longer to get a Green card, sometimes 10 years, after you have been living in the USA. At this point you are under constant threat, because the instant you lose your job/your project ends, you can be sent back to India, and it's all for nothing.

With that background, I am completely against illegal immigrants getting a free pass. At the most they can be sent to the very back of the Green Card process, because realistically, how are you going to enforce millions of illegals out of the country?

2)Now, my BIGGEST problem is with the college admissions/aid process.

I remember there were some cases where the children of illegal immigrants were given resident status. I think these kids were not even born in the states, just were brought here at an early age. There was a very emotional campaign during the last election about how this was a big emotional problem. Rick Perry was very much against this, and that is the correct policy.

Why? I lived in the same US state throughout HS on a visa, no greencard. My scores etc were good enough to get me a full ride to the state university. I didn't end up going there however, because not only would I have had to pay full tuition and not get the scholarship, but I would have had to pay full OUT OF STATE tuition. So instead of $0, by merit, I would have had to pay ~$40k a year. 160k$ for college extra. For being legal. FUCK THAT.

3) With Narendra Modi almost locked to take over power this year in India, the road to being the new superpower/ not taking shit from the US/Pakistan/China is on.

[Bushido]

If I was in power these would be my policies:

- Repeal all minimum wage laws.
- Get rid of permanent welfare for otherwise fit and healthy people.
- Make legal immigration much easier for skilled or otherwise motivated foreigners who speak English. These people should be welcomed with open arms.
- Heavily fine and imprison any employer responsible for employing illegals. Their assets would be frozen too to hit their business.
- Automatically deport any illegal caught working and deny re-entry to the country for a decade.

(01-29-2014 09:42 AM)Blaster Wrote:  

Bluntly, the fear is the free market will decide that these jobs aren't worth a living wage. Poverty will grow.

If these jobs don't pay a living wage then nobody would do them. That's why free market principles work.

Even in China wages are beginning to rise as people demand more for their working day, which is why some manufacturers are moving out to cheaper countries.

[Hencredible Casanova]

I see a lot of guys talking like employees when they really should think like an owner. If you own a business, you hire the hardest working guy for the lowest price possible. I'm not going to spend a dime on some entitled, unproductive Americunt who is going to try to sue me or start a union so he or she doesn't have to do shit and still get paid. Fuck that.

Plus any increase in the cost of labor gets passed on down to the consumer. Labor costs go up, prices go up, and so do taxes btw. Fuck that.

If I was in charge of a labor-intensive industry (construction, farming, even hotels) I would take the immigrant any day. Besides, if you've lived in America for generations, you should be gaming the system or figuring out some kind of hustle that works for you. If you're worried about fresh immigrants as some kind of competition, your problems probably don't end there.

Look at Roosh. Immigrant parents and he's overseas while still getting US money. That's hustle. Figured it out much quicker than a lot of his countrymen.

The US is one of the easiest places to do business for this reason. In a lot of European countries it's damn hard to fire somebody and service sucks shit.

[Merenguero]

(01-29-2014 08:19 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

The US is one of the easiest places to do business for this reason. In a lot of European countries it's damn hard to fire somebody and service sucks shit.

I think in a lot of countries in general it's hard to fire somebody. I receive these calls every day from people who lose their jobs and want to sue. My response is generally, "The United States is a free country. Employers almost always have the right to fire people with some limited exceptions."

[Suits]

(01-29-2014 08:19 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Look at Roosh. Immigrant parents and he's overseas while still getting US money. That's hustle. Figured it out much quicker than a lot of his countrymen.

Seriously, why is any one on this forum even concerned about hard-working South Americans accepting low paying jobs?

The US is a lost cause, everyone on this forum should be in the process of relocating to a third world country where they will live a king as they earn US dollarssssss and spend only local currency.

Join me -- Beijing, February 2014.

[ElJefe]

As much as the US is a lost cause, a lot of guys in here are still patriots.

Why?

Because patriotism is one of the most noble male qualities. It represents the hitherto greatest development of the masculine emphasis on loyalty (a trait developed to maximize successfully passing on genes). It allows for coordinated action on a great scale with little loss of efficiency.

Because we are patriots, we care about what our country. What it was and what it's becoming.

[Hotwheels]

(01-29-2014 08:50 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

As much as the US is a lost cause, a lot of guys in here are still patriots.

Why?

Because patriotism is one of the most noble male qualities. It represents the hitherto greatest development of the masculine emphasis on loyalty (a trait developed to maximize successfully passing on genes). It allows for coordinated action on a great scale with little loss of efficiency.

Because we are patriots, we care about what our country. What it was and what it's becoming.

Not nearly patriotic enough however.

Other countries support their home industry while many here revile our own.

[Blaster]

(01-29-2014 08:13 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

(01-29-2014 09:42 AM)Blaster Wrote:  

Bluntly, the fear is the free market will decide that these jobs aren't worth a living wage. Poverty will grow.

If these jobs don't pay a living wage then nobody would do them. That's why free market principles work.

"Living wage" is basically a term of art meaning "wages that can support a specific baseline standard of living as defined by society."

People will work for less than a "US living wage" if their conditions are better than the conditions they left behind in their country of origin. This might be good for them, but it's bad for the people who now have to compete.

Jimbo the Janitor earns enough to live by himself in a modest 1-bedroom apartment in a lower-class but reasonably safe neighborhood. After migrants arrive, Jimbo loses his job to a guy sharing a 1-bedroom apartment with 3 other men in a dangerous neighborhood. Jimbo gets a part-time job at Burger King and moves into his parents basement and spends the rest of his life playing World of Warcraft.

In other words: average standard of living is going down.

[ElJefe]

Well, I was really just talking about the manosphere.

We espouse masculine qualities and are fighting a silent war to restore respect for them (paging ROK). It is only natural many of us are patriotic. It would be strange if we were not. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori and all that.

As for supporting industries. Well, consumers buy shit, and what they buy is shaped according to preferences, the most powerful being quality for price. Sure, some people buy goods to support a noble cause, but for most of our budget, we are rational in that sense.

I wouldn't blame people for maximizing their happiness under the current incentive structure. It's the politicians who design the incentive structure, and I blame them! Politicians are, however, products of universities and intellectual drivel that comes from there, and the reason why it's drivel is because of, among other things, the cultural hijacking of our academic system by progressive elements. Antonio Gramscii put his finger on this process in the early 20th century in his writings.

In a modern economy what matters not is control of capital, it is control of the flow of information.

Restoring America, if such a goal exists, involves a serious showdown with large swathes of the academic world, including a regular butchering of the humanities and social sciences. Libertarianism is useless unless protected by the cultural hegemony of conservatism.

[Blaster]

Quote:

I see a lot of guys talking like employees when they really should think like an owner. If you own a business, you hire the hardest working guy for the lowest price possible.

I'm trying not to think like an employee or an owner, rather trying to look at the system's dynamics.

As an owner, you can move a factory overseas to increase your profit margin by a little bit, which might mean earning enough in the next year to invest in some real estate you've had your eye on. Meanwhile, the factory shutdown devastates the local economy. While you can claim that the offshoring move was best for everyone in the long run, it's unwise to simply ignore those negative consequences and pretend like they don't matter at all, which is what free market nutbags usually do.

[Bushido]

(01-29-2014 09:22 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(01-29-2014 08:13 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

(01-29-2014 09:42 AM)Blaster Wrote:  

Bluntly, the fear is the free market will decide that these jobs aren't worth a living wage. Poverty will grow.

If these jobs don't pay a living wage then nobody would do them. That's why free market principles work.

"Living wage" is basically a term of art meaning "wages that can support a specific baseline standard of living as defined by society."

People will work for less than a "US living wage" if their conditions are better than the conditions they left behind in their country of origin. This might be good for them, but it's bad for the people who now have to compete.

Jimbo the Janitor earns enough to live by himself in a modest 1-bedroom apartment in a lower-class but reasonably safe neighborhood. After migrants arrive, Jimbo loses his job to a guy sharing a 1-bedroom apartment with 3 other men in a dangerous neighborhood. Jimbo gets a part-time job at Burger King and moves into his parents basement and spends the rest of his life playing World of Warcraft.

In other words: average standard of living is going down.

That's why immigration needs to be both legal and in tune with economic trends. If the economy is bad you shut the doors. Minimum wages distort the market and encourage employers to go the illegal route.

In a way this is similar to the pointless war on drugs in that our governments actually help promote criminal activity. It's economic insanity and creates a dangerous underclass instead of proud 1st generation citizens.

[Sonsowey]

Of course people who have grown up here should be treated as citizens.

The fact that illegal immigrants are here in such numbers probably wont change though. It is simply too beneficial to business interests to have illegal workers you can abuse and pay nothing. We got rid of slavery, introduced a minimum wage, and now scumbag businessmen who cant bear to pay someone 7.50 an hour are happy as clams that there are about 12 million illegal workers who they can rely on to work obediently without having to pay them very much or pay taxes on them.

The Republican party definitely will not do anything to actually deport illegal immigrants or give them a legal right to work here, the entire point is to have an underclass that our laws do not apply to.