Quote: (01-28-2014 01:16 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

Personally I could care less about illegals since they're mainly taking lawn mowing jobs, janitors, porta-potty cleaners(yes this is a job), or working at fast food places. We need a drudge class so why not let the illegals take the jobs that we really do not want to do. Let them have their citizenship and lower class jobs. If that's what they want let them have it.

Every railroad contractor I work with thanks you for your attitude.

Because of this mentality they are able to get away paying illegals 10 bux an hour to do a job that would pay $20 if not for their availability.

And no, these guys are not all doing manual labor all day long. They are running machines, driving trucks, etc.

This artificial downward pressure on wages impacts a lot more people than the guys mowing your lawn.

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

As I understand the situation is the same in other areas of construction.

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:37 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:24 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 07:27 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

You think so? I don't think that's true, Speak. Even if you go up to Quebec (Montreal), the vibe and culture is latin not anglo at all.

HC, surely you mean French, not Latin. Quebec is notoriously French and very protective of the French language and culture. Canada has always suffered from tensions between Quebec (French) and rest of Canada (British/Anglo) including two referendums on Quebec separating from Canada.

Even Montreal which is more diverse than the rest of Quebec is still pretty French in its culture and vibe.

I have no intention of getting involved in this messy thread and I am not arguing for or against your post, simply pointing out that in Quebec the culture is French, not Latin.

No, what I mean is that French is a latin culture (Latin Europe). French is also a latin language. One of Montreal's nicknames is "Latin capital of the north."

I've talked about this with people I know from Quebec. It has more in common culturally with latin countries than anglo ones. Just the way they celebrate culture and life. But being in North America dilutes things a bit because they are influenced by the US economy.

Fair enough but I would still say the vibe one gets in Miami and Montreal is quite different. The French culture may have traits common with the Latin culture but I still wouldn't go so far as to say that Quebec has a Latin vibe and culture. I can certainly guarantee you if you said that to a real French Canadian (Québécois) they would be steaming mad. Being from Canada I have vacationed multiple times in Quebec and have visited many cities other than Montreal.

The deeper you go into Quebec the more French and anti-Anglo culture they get. I remember once in Quebec City I was at a McDonald's where the cashier didn't speak any English at all and it was quite funny tying to order chicken nuggets. I suppose I should have paid attention in my high school French class but that ship has sailed.

Interesting discussion, have you ever been to Montreal and or the rest of Quebec?

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:53 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

Interesting discussion, have you ever been to Montreal and or the rest of Quebec?

Have I? Haha. My most famous data sheet or thread in general was on Montreal.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-9218.html

That's one of my favorite places in the world period.

Yeah man, I hear you, it gets real in Quebec. Fiercely anti-Anglo. I've been to the outer suburbs of Montreal and it's purely French everywhere you go. You're fucked otherwise. I hear Quebec City is even worse.

As for the term latin, a Quebecois friend of mine actually described Quebec that way to me. But I kinda led the discussion there because I was saying how much it reminded me in some ways of places I've been to in Latin America, especially the Quartier Latin area of MTL.

The difference between, say, Toronto and Montreal is almost similar to how it was when I flew from London to Madrid once. The vibe was just a lot more chill in the latin cities. I immediately feel relaxed in those kind of places. There wasn't a sense that people were in a rush to get anywhere, the pace was slower, and people don't seem to be constantly thinking about money and work. It's like that in France as well. Wherever they speak romance languages basically, even Romania apparently. It's one of those things better understood by experience than by words.

Anyway, don't mean to derail this thread. Carry on.

Quote: (01-28-2014 07:32 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 02:41 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 02:14 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

...The issue is whether or not modern nations have sovereignty over their borders. If a country cannot dictate who its citizens are, then is it really even a country?

Imagine you joined a private country club ten years ago. You have access to nice facilities, golf courses, pools, restaurants, etc... The club is exclusive and does not allow more than a limited amount of new members to join every year. But then suddenly the rules change and anyone is allowed to join. The club is quickly swamped with hundreds of new members, most of whom do not respect the traditions of the club. Within a few years, the club is unrecognizable from what it used to be. This is basically what is happening to Western countries at the moment.

This matters because countries are not just arbitrary pieces of land. A country is a people and its traditions. If you replaced every Japanese person in Japan with Irishmen or Ugandans, then you don't have "Japan" as we know it anymore. That Japan is gone. You have something else entirely. The same is true for every country.

There's simply no reason to support large scale immigration if you have any interest in preserving the culture and traditions of your country.

I am very sympathetic to this view. But I think we--or at least certain classes of us--are complicit in the current situation, with 20 million or whatever illegals here, many for a long time with families and whatnot. Companies, farmers, etc. wanted cheap labor, so we never effectively cracked down. To suddenly decide to fix the situation on the backs of mostly a bunch of hardworking ordinary people--at huge human cost--would be inhumane.

We helped create the situation. Given that, I think the principle of sovereignty is not worth the pain of mass deportations. Let's enact a reasonable solution for those already here, and fix the problem going forward.

The main problems is that this is what they promised in the 80s. Reagan gave a blanket amnesty to those here with the promise of fixing the broken borders going forward. Well, we see how that turned out. So you can't blame Americans for being skeptical of another "comprehensive immigration reform".

I also don't buy any of this shit about how we need people doing jobs nobody else will do. How does every other country do it? How many poor immigrants live in Iceland? How is Iceland getting its floors mopped and toilets cleaned? Probably by local Icelanders that are getting paid a living wage when they don't have to compete with people willing to work for peanuts. Yet we are told in America that if we close the borders we are going to starve to death and nothing will ever get cleaned again.

You also have to factor in that you are paying for those cheap vegetables and nannies in other ways. They are going to have kids at the county hospital at $9,000 per birth billed to the taxpayer. When those kids go to school, they will cost $10,000 a year to educate from the taxpayer. This comes from property taxes. Are these illegals working slave wages paying $10,000 a year in property taxes? There's a reason California went from once having the best education system in the country to now being almost dead last. Some schools in L.A. have a student body made of almost entire kids who are undocumented. Just look at how dysfunctional California is if you want to see what the results of this are. Now that I left that state and see how much better other places function it's so much more clear. You start seeing how parents of meager incomes aren't forced to put their kids in private schools because the public schools suck so bad. You see how roads are not full of potholes everywhere and the infrastructure is good. California is becoming a third world economy with a few wealthy at the top and masses of uneducated working poor.

I get annoyed when people make glib statements like, "why are you worried about it, what's stopping you from making money?" As if that's all that matters. As if none of this has any consequences aside from my own personal paycheck. I look back at friends in California who have kids and can't take a family vacation because they need the money for private school due to the public schools being ruined. That's where shit gets real. Many have plans of getting out of CA as its just too dysfunctional, especially given how high taxes are out there and what you get for your money.

Here's what I think the solution would entail. It's basically the bill that the Senate passed in June 2013.

- points system like what Australia and Canada use. This allows the best and the brightest almost unfettered access to permanent residence, or at least work authorization
- at the same time, a rational system for allowing low-skilled workers visas, eventually leading to permanent residence. Allow enough low-skilled workers in that there's little need for employers to hire undocumented workers. (Would love to hear what forum members who own their own businesses would say about this. Am I wrong? Is that possible?)
- control the border as much as possible. Accept that some people will slip by. Rather than a deluge, make it a trickle.
- accept legalization for the people already here, hoping that we finally get future preventative measures right moving forward.

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:43 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 01:16 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

Personally I could care less about illegals since they're mainly taking lawn mowing jobs, janitors, porta-potty cleaners(yes this is a job), or working at fast food places. We need a drudge class so why not let the illegals take the jobs that we really do not want to do. Let them have their citizenship and lower class jobs. If that's what they want let them have it.

Every railroad contractor I work with thanks you for your attitude.

Because of this mentality they are able to get away paying illegals 10 bux an hour to do a job that would pay $20 if not for their availability.

And no, these guys are not all doing manual labor all day long. They are running machines, driving trucks, etc.

This artificial downward pressure on wages impacts a lot more people than the guys mowing your lawn.

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

As I understand the situation is the same in other areas of construction.

That's happened in many industries.

A lot blacks in New Orleans got shafted because construction firms that were rebuilding after Katrina were only hiring illegal immigrants.

http://mikesamerica.blogspot.com/2006/04...ed-so.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-labor4...z2rlGcvoU3

Yeti - great "skin in the game" analysis.

No offense to anyone from Central America but in my experience traveling that region is by far the biggest shithole in at least the Americas. The cities there, except for Panama City, have many parts that just look straight apocalyptic. No charm whatsoever. I couldn't imagine trying to eke out an existence there.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post too. The government is negligent in not even having an immigration policy. There's nothing they've put in place to account for the fact that there are as many illegal immigrants as there are, living in hiding, raising families, and working. That's just crazy. People in hiding are generally not going to be inclined to assimilate because of risk of being caught and deported.

Quote: (01-29-2014 12:15 AM)Yeti Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 07:32 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 02:41 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 02:14 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

...The issue is whether or not modern nations have sovereignty over their borders. If a country cannot dictate who its citizens are, then is it really even a country?

Imagine you joined a private country club ten years ago. You have access to nice facilities, golf courses, pools, restaurants, etc... The club is exclusive and does not allow more than a limited amount of new members to join every year. But then suddenly the rules change and anyone is allowed to join. The club is quickly swamped with hundreds of new members, most of whom do not respect the traditions of the club. Within a few years, the club is unrecognizable from what it used to be. This is basically what is happening to Western countries at the moment.

This matters because countries are not just arbitrary pieces of land. A country is a people and its traditions. If you replaced every Japanese person in Japan with Irishmen or Ugandans, then you don't have "Japan" as we know it anymore. That Japan is gone. You have something else entirely. The same is true for every country.

There's simply no reason to support large scale immigration if you have any interest in preserving the culture and traditions of your country.

I am very sympathetic to this view. But I think we--or at least certain classes of us--are complicit in the current situation, with 20 million or whatever illegals here, many for a long time with families and whatnot. Companies, farmers, etc. wanted cheap labor, so we never effectively cracked down. To suddenly decide to fix the situation on the backs of mostly a bunch of hardworking ordinary people--at huge human cost--would be inhumane.

We helped create the situation. Given that, I think the principle of sovereignty is not worth the pain of mass deportations. Let's enact a reasonable solution for those already here, and fix the problem going forward.

The main problems is that this is what they promised in the 80s. Reagan gave a blanket amnesty to those here with the promise of fixing the broken borders going forward. Well, we see how that turned out. So you can't blame Americans for being skeptical of another "comprehensive immigration reform".

I also don't buy any of this shit about how we need people doing jobs nobody else will do. How does every other country do it? How many poor immigrants live in Iceland? How is Iceland getting its floors mopped and toilets cleaned? Probably by local Icelanders that are getting paid a living wage when they don't have to compete with people willing to work for peanuts. Yet we are told in America that if we close the borders we are going to starve to death and nothing will ever get cleaned again.

You also have to factor in that you are paying for those cheap vegetables and nannies in other ways. They are going to have kids at the county hospital at $9,000 per birth billed to the taxpayer. When those kids go to school, they will cost $10,000 a year to educate from the taxpayer. This comes from property taxes. Are these illegals working slave wages paying $10,000 a year in property taxes? There's a reason California went from once having the best education system in the country to now being almost dead last. Some schools in L.A. have a student body made of almost entire kids who are undocumented. Just look at how dysfunctional California is if you want to see what the results of this are. Now that I left that state and see how much better other places function it's so much more clear. You start seeing how parents of meager incomes aren't forced to put their kids in private schools because the public schools suck so bad. You see how roads are not full of potholes everywhere and the infrastructure is good. California is becoming a third world economy with a few wealthy at the top and masses of uneducated working poor.

I get annoyed when people make glib statements like, "why are you worried about it, what's stopping you from making money?" As if that's all that matters. As if none of this has any consequences aside from my own personal paycheck. I look back at friends in California who have kids and can't take a family vacation because they need the money for private school due to the public schools being ruined. That's where shit gets real. Many have plans of getting out of CA as its just too dysfunctional, especially given how high taxes are out there and what you get for your money.

Here's what I think the solution would entail. It's basically the bill that the Senate passed in June 2013.

- points system like what Australia and Canada use. This allows the best and the brightest almost unfettered access to permanent residence, or at least work authorization
- at the same time, a rational system for allowing low-skilled workers visas, eventually leading to permanent residence. Allow enough low-skilled workers in that there's little need for employers to hire undocumented workers. (Would love to hear what forum members who own their own businesses would say about this. Am I wrong? Is that possible?)
- control the border as much as possible. Accept that some people will slip by. Rather than a deluge, make it a trickle.
- accept legalization for the people already here, hoping that we finally get future preventative measures right moving forward.

I agree with your post. As for the border, I think now with drone technology, patrolling the border can be done relative cheaply. No need to build a 2,000 mile electric fence. Just get a fleet of drones to patrol the the border 24/7. They can easily see people crossing at night with infrared technology.

I agree that education and skilled people should get first pick and I really have no problems with such people coming here from any nation. What I don't like is importing mass poverty and creating ethnic enclaves where that culture of poverty becomes generational. We also need more power to kick troublemakers the fuck out of here. You have the MS-13 gang all over America and many of them came up here illegally from El Salvador. We know they cause crime and terrorize neighborhoods, we know how many are illegal, yet a cop can't even ask them to show their papers to prove citizenship. That kind of shit needs to stop. If we know people who recently moved here are causing crime, deport them immediately.

As an aside here's an interesting video to watch, from downtown L.A.(I'm guessing Broadway Blvd). Some guy just posted up and let the camera run:






I'm in no way talking shit about Mexicans. In fact, I like Mexican people, I like Mexico and I like Mexican women. But mass immigration tends to cause the enclave effect where the new place they move to starts to look exactly like the place they left. Many parts of Los Angeles are now indistinguishable from Mexico City as you see in the video above. The bad thing is, the women that come here aren't even the hotties from Sinaloa or Jalisco, it's mostly the indigenous, short ones from the poorer places in Mexico.

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:43 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 01:16 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

Personally I could care less about illegals since they're mainly taking lawn mowing jobs, janitors, porta-potty cleaners(yes this is a job), or working at fast food places. We need a drudge class so why not let the illegals take the jobs that we really do not want to do. Let them have their citizenship and lower class jobs. If that's what they want let them have it.

Every railroad contractor I work with thanks you for your attitude.

Because of this mentality they are able to get away paying illegals 10 bux an hour to do a job that would pay $20 if not for their availability.

And no, these guys are not all doing manual labor all day long. They are running machines, driving trucks, etc.

This artificial downward pressure on wages impacts a lot more people than the guys mowing your lawn.

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

As I understand the situation is the same in other areas of construction.

This is all 100% correct. I work in construction and this is basically what has happened. My company employs about 400 people, the majority of whom are illegal. I'm a heavy equipment operator, and bizarrely, I also handle some administrative tasks.

But here's the thing, the latino workers aren't just bottom feeder laborers who pick up trash and crawl in the mud. If I'm not available, they run some of the heavy equipment (you don't give the keys to a brand new $400K excavator to an illiterate illegal, as that is asking for trouble, but you'll let them run the old broken down shit.) They make up the bulk of the carpenters and the layout and engineering crews, which are all skilled trades. We've even got a few latino crane operators. They're dangerous as fuck, and most are not certified, but since they work for a few dollars less than their American counterparts, they get hired. Now I do concrete which is a lower level trade. What's beginning to emerge is that latinos are turning up in more technical skilled trades such as plumbing and HVAC. You want to talk about an area where wages took a massive blow when illegals arrived is plumbing. That used to be a fairly lucrative trade, and now it's shit.

About the only trade that has been able to maintain decent wages is elevators, and that's because they have almost no nonunion competition, and they WILL NOT hire illegals under any circumstances. And damn few people will take the risk of hiring a nonunion elevator company.

I've seen the writing on the wall, and know that I've got to find an exit from this kind of work in the next 2-3 years. It's only a matter of time before I get pushed out by someone willing to do the same (or more) work for less money.

You see them working as auto mechanics, truck drivers (they're usually legal), etc. They're taking over many blue collar occupations. And all of those occupations are seeing their wages being ground down. Anyone foolish enough to think this won't eventually trickle up to bring their wages down is just that: a fool.

Quote: (01-28-2014 01:48 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

The USA has problems but it's one of the rare places where one can go from the gutter to the top of the pile and that is a rare thing across the globe.

I used to believe the same once, but sadly...


http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/09/news/eco...-mobility/

(rehosted since I suspect that CNN doesn't like direct linking images)

Possible? Sure. Likely? Nope. Likely to be an actual reflection of one's intelligence or hard work (as opposed to luck, politics, corruption or crime)? Not likely at all.

People should recognize this fact and be humble about their (relative) success. For example, Croatia has a 17.6% unemployment rate (only Spain and Greece are worse) right now and I as an individual happen to have not one, but two jobs. I'm a huge outlier. Is it because I'm smart and decisive? Sure. Is there also an element of luck in having fought my way past the system grinding me down? Sure. I can't not acknowledge that.

I have a friend who is just as smart as I am and more hard-working but who hasn't ever been employed. Fuck, if a professor hadn't sent a SWOT analysis I wrote to his friend who owned a company, I would have never gotten that first bit of business experience from which things continued unrolling favorably for me, and I might have easily ended in the same pile as my friend right now. The idea is terrifying. It's certainly terrifying enough that I would never come up to my friend and say "hey, stop bitching". Of course, there are many people who are in the same situation with less going for them so you might point a finger and say "ok, this one is a lazy fuck", but we shouldn't make gross generalizations because of that.

And mind you, I'm talking about being lucky in scrounging a middle-class existence here. If a person is driving an expensive car here, there's a 99% chance there's crime or politics (the same) involved rather than the 50% I mentioned for myself.

Anyways, this is all offtopic from my original point: the small possibility of someone going from bottom to top of the USA is just that: a small possibility. It's not something that people just reach up to and grab. To assume otherwise is not realistic.

deleted

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:43 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

Why not just let the free market decide how much these jobs should pay based on supply and demand?

It won't matter in the long term. Globalization will break down the borders. You'll have a general purpose digital ID card you carry around for everything.

Quote: (01-29-2014 08:42 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:43 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

Why not just let the free market decide how much these jobs should pay based on supply and demand?

Bluntly, the fear is the free market will decide that these jobs aren't worth a living wage. Poverty will grow.

^^Damn, not ONE decent-looking Mexican girl in that vid Speakeasy posted. Also, I don't really buy the notion that these people "do the work Americans won't do." Who the fuck do people think did all that work before millions of third-worlders were imported? White and black Americans, that's who. Somehow, shit got done.

The other thing is many pro-immigration people tend to be those who arent directly affected by it. They live in nice little suburbs of the American Northeast, drive their Priuses, and have no fucking clue about it's damaging effects in such places as Arizona, SoCal, etc. Drop 10,000 Mexicans into their gated community and see how quickly they change their tune.

Quote: (01-29-2014 09:42 AM)Blaster Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 08:42 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:43 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

Why not just let the free market decide how much these jobs should pay based on supply and demand?

Bluntly, the fear is the free market will decide that these jobs aren't worth a living wage. Poverty will grow.

Sorry, I'm opposed to socialism. The free market given enough time will balance everything out.

Next thing you're going to say is that the fear of death means that we have to have free medical care for everyone.

This is how communism happens, people.

To prevent socialism, we need to take down the border with Mexico and just let free market economics fix everything.

Quote: (01-29-2014 09:51 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

^^Damn, not ONE decent-looking Mexican girl in that vid Speakeasy posted. Also, I don't really buy the notion that these people "do the work Americans won't do." Who the fuck do people think did all that work before millions of third-worlders were imported? White and black Americans, that's who. Somehow, shit got done.

The other thing is many pro-immigration people tend to be those who arent directly affected by it. They live in nice little suburbs of the American Northeast, drive their Priuses, and have no fucking clue about it's damaging effects in such places as Arizona, SoCal, etc. Drop 10,000 Mexicans into their gated community and see how quickly they change their tune.

That is probably the thing that is the most frustrating...

"They do things Americans will not do?"

Really? Have people that ever said this been to 90% of the USA? Ever been to a farm? Ever been to a construction site? I see all sorts of Americans doing the same jobs. I see all sorts of Americans out in the 105 degree heat tossing hay bails up on a moving wagon running to keep up. I have done it myself. My parents and grandparents and so on did it.

Maybe if we stopped paying people to not work, and bankrupting our future to do so, these people would be willing to work these jobs.

Quote: (01-29-2014 10:21 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 09:51 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

^^Damn, not ONE decent-looking Mexican girl in that vid Speakeasy posted. Also, I don't really buy the notion that these people "do the work Americans won't do." Who the fuck do people think did all that work before millions of third-worlders were imported? White and black Americans, that's who. Somehow, shit got done.

The other thing is many pro-immigration people tend to be those who arent directly affected by it. They live in nice little suburbs of the American Northeast, drive their Priuses, and have no fucking clue about it's damaging effects in such places as Arizona, SoCal, etc. Drop 10,000 Mexicans into their gated community and see how quickly they change their tune.

That is probably the thing that is the most frustrating...

"They do things Americans will not do?"

Really? Have people that ever said this been to 90% of the USA? Ever been to a farm? Ever been to a construction site? I see all sorts of Americans doing the same jobs. I see all sorts of Americans out in the 105 degree heat tossing hay bails up on a moving wagon running to keep up. I have done it myself. My parents and grandparents and so on did it.

Maybe if we stopped paying people to not work, and bankrupting our future to do so, these people would be willing to work these jobs.

Anyone over 40 will tell you teenagers -- specifically teenage boys -- used to do those jobs "Americans *allegedly* won't do." I used to pick up trash at neighborhood centers, do yardwork and gardening, hang Christimas lights, and do "traffic attendant" work.

This was all under the umbrella of a big company near where I lived. You'd sign up and they'd call you the night before any work needed to be done.

What would they pay? Minimum wage plus the occasional extra if you worked weird hours. What do they pay illegals? Below that.

So we now have massive teenage unemployment. Even the lefty HuffPost see this. Scads of teenage boys with time on their hands and no means to make money is a recipe for trouble.

Quote:Quote:

Sorry, I'm opposed to socialism.

Not really relevant. Closing borders isn't tantamount to socialism, this is an obtuse argument.

Quote:Quote:

The free market given enough time will balance everything out.

This is wrong, the free market absolutely does not "balance everything out." Free market capitalism is the best known way to facilitate economic growth of the entire system over a long period of time assuming there are adequate natural resources available. That says absolutely nothing about balance, and more importantly says nothing about related conflicts and stresses that will result over that time period.

Free market says if you flood a region with unskilled labor, that will drive up demand for slum housing and cheap food while driving down low-end wages. The total amount of wealth in the system increases but most of that goes to the upper classes, with the bare minimum being spread among the laborers. The big losers are the former stable, working class people who now have to live in overcrowded overpriced slums and struggle to put food on the table.

You can sit back in your armchair and tell those people to suck it up, but the free market isn't going to be there to save you when young idle unsupervised impoverished males with nothing to lose decide to burglarize your home.

Quote:Quote:

This is how communism happens, people.

Are you serious? Communism is the philosophy with the one world brotherhood of laborers.

Quote: (01-29-2014 08:42 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2014 11:43 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

btw-A lot of the non union bridge and highway construction outfits employ illegals as well, furthering wage erosion in jobs that were once considered "making a decent living".

Why not just let the free market decide how much these jobs should pay based on supply and demand?

The free market is fine so long as the people competing for labor come from similar background. I don't know what you do for a living but suppose tomorrow you had to compete with people in India doing what you do for 1/10 the price. And now you are out of a job. How would you feel about that? Labor costs in America aren't high because American workers are greedy, it's high because it's EXPENSIVE to live in a 1st world country.

If I lived in India where people live off a dollar a day, I could afford to charge less for my labor. But I can't charge India prices for my labor and not live in poverty. So when I hear this crap about the global free market, it isn't a fair system in the least. If you enjoy living in a 1st world country where you are shielded from the type of crushing poverty you see in Asia and Latin America, you have an obligation to support your fellow citizens with a 1st world wage.

Quote: (01-29-2014 10:31 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 10:21 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 09:51 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

^^Damn, not ONE decent-looking Mexican girl in that vid Speakeasy posted. Also, I don't really buy the notion that these people "do the work Americans won't do." Who the fuck do people think did all that work before millions of third-worlders were imported? White and black Americans, that's who. Somehow, shit got done.

The other thing is many pro-immigration people tend to be those who arent directly affected by it. They live in nice little suburbs of the American Northeast, drive their Priuses, and have no fucking clue about it's damaging effects in such places as Arizona, SoCal, etc. Drop 10,000 Mexicans into their gated community and see how quickly they change their tune.

That is probably the thing that is the most frustrating...

"They do things Americans will not do?"

Really? Have people that ever said this been to 90% of the USA? Ever been to a farm? Ever been to a construction site? I see all sorts of Americans doing the same jobs. I see all sorts of Americans out in the 105 degree heat tossing hay bails up on a moving wagon running to keep up. I have done it myself. My parents and grandparents and so on did it.

Maybe if we stopped paying people to not work, and bankrupting our future to do so, these people would be willing to work these jobs.

Anyone over 40 will tell you teenagers -- specifically teenage boys -- used to do those jobs "Americans *allegedly* won't do." I used to pick up trash at neighborhood centers, do yardwork and gardening, hang Christimas lights, and do "traffic attendant" work.

This was all under the umbrella of a big company near where I lived. You'd sign up and they'd call you the night before any work needed to be done.

What would they pay? Minimum wage plus the occasional extra if you worked weird hours. What do they pay illegals? Below that.

So we now have massive teenage unemployment. Even the lefty HuffPost see this. Scads of teenage boys with time on their hands and no means to make money is a recipe for trouble.

True. It is a scary thought of how many 18 year old sexually frustrated men are out there with no outlet and no real future in place for them in this economy.

Quote: (01-29-2014 10:56 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 10:31 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 10:21 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 09:51 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

^^Damn, not ONE decent-looking Mexican girl in that vid Speakeasy posted. Also, I don't really buy the notion that these people "do the work Americans won't do." Who the fuck do people think did all that work before millions of third-worlders were imported? White and black Americans, that's who. Somehow, shit got done.

The other thing is many pro-immigration people tend to be those who arent directly affected by it. They live in nice little suburbs of the American Northeast, drive their Priuses, and have no fucking clue about it's damaging effects in such places as Arizona, SoCal, etc. Drop 10,000 Mexicans into their gated community and see how quickly they change their tune.

That is probably the thing that is the most frustrating...

"They do things Americans will not do?"

Really? Have people that ever said this been to 90% of the USA? Ever been to a farm? Ever been to a construction site? I see all sorts of Americans doing the same jobs. I see all sorts of Americans out in the 105 degree heat tossing hay bails up on a moving wagon running to keep up. I have done it myself. My parents and grandparents and so on did it.

Maybe if we stopped paying people to not work, and bankrupting our future to do so, these people would be willing to work these jobs.

Anyone over 40 will tell you teenagers -- specifically teenage boys -- used to do those jobs "Americans *allegedly* won't do." I used to pick up trash at neighborhood centers, do yardwork and gardening, hang Christimas lights, and do "traffic attendant" work.

This was all under the umbrella of a big company near where I lived. You'd sign up and they'd call you the night before any work needed to be done.

What would they pay? Minimum wage plus the occasional extra if you worked weird hours. What do they pay illegals? Below that.

So we now have massive teenage unemployment. Even the lefty HuffPost see this. Scads of teenage boys with time on their hands and no means to make money is a recipe for trouble.

True. It is a scary thought of how many 18 year old sexually frustrated men are out there with no outlet and no real future in place for them in this economy.

No money and no sex would be a really bad thing if not for World of Warcraft....

What the average person on the street in New York thinks about illegal immigration.

Quote: (01-29-2014 12:18 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

What the average person on the street in New York thinks about illegal immigration.

WB interview girl. You can tell by the tone of her voice and her passive-aggressive questioning that she is a raging feminist.

Quote: (01-29-2014 01:28 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2014 12:18 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

What the average person on the street in New York thinks about illegal immigration.

WB interview girl. You can tell by the tone of her voice and her passive-aggressive questioning that she is a raging feminist.

I know that dude at the 0:51/1:51 sec mark. He went to Howard University. Worked at the Starbucks on Georgia Ave right next to the campus.

I read an article recently about that "Tiger Mom" chick who previously wrote a book about how strict Asian parenting is a key in that group's outsized academic excellence.

She's got a new book with her husband that talks about the cultural traits with certain immigrant ethnic groups that are disproportionately successful.

I know from my own experience that some of the groups she studies like Jews, Indians, Nigerians, Iranians and Lebanese people definitely have outsized success rates relative to their numbers.

Some excerpts

Quote:Quote:

From time to time, every Indian American finds an email in his or her inbox, wearing a font of many colors, like the one my grandfather once sent me: "Take a Pride--Being an Indian. 38% of Doctors in U.S.A. are Indians. 36% of NASA employees are Indians. 34% of MICROSOFT employees are Indians. India invented the Number System. Decimal Point was also invented by India. Sanskrit is the most suitable language for computer software ..."

Her new book, co-authored with her husband, widens its aim, purporting to explain why not just Asians (like Chua) but also seven other groups--Cubans, Jews (like Rubenfeld), Indians (like me), Nigerians, Mormons, Iranians and Lebanese--are superior when it comes to succeeding in America.

The book claims that these groups thrive because of three traits: a superiority complex, insecurity and impulse control. The ones lacking the "Triple Package" are African Americans, Appalachians, Wasps and pretty much everybody else.

Does such thinking shock you? If not, it may be because it has become so insidiously commonplace over the past decade as a new strain of racial, ethnic and cultural reductivism has crept into the American psyche and public discourse. Whereas making sweeping observations about, say, African-American or Hispanic culture--flattering or unflattering--remains unthinkable in polite company, it has become relatively normal in the past 10 years to comment on the supposed cultural superiority of various "model minorities."

A Congolese immigrant whom I met in the course of researching my book told me about the African Americans she knows at the supermarket where she works. "We are really different," she said about her community, as opposed to African Americans. "They don't have African values. They don't have the values to be black."

I asked her what that means.

"To be black," she explained, "means you get married and you don't have children before." The American blacks at her supermarket, she said, need to go to college. "They ask if you want to have marijuana. It's just normal for them. It's easy for them to say that 'My ancestors were oppressed.'"

In 2009 an article by Jason Richwine, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, caught the attention of my people with its title, "Indian Americans: The New Model Minority." East Asians continue to excel in the U.S., he noted, but Indians are clearly the latest and greatest model. Why? "Exhibit A is the spelling bee." Success in spelling and other similar cognitive tasks, according to Richwine, proves that we are smarter than whites as well as Ashkenazi Jews--a happy finding for my father, who spent a lifetime in the diamond market, where they have a big presence. Richwine's conclusion: immigration policy should favor these model minorities over, say, Mexicans.

Perhaps somewhat uniquely, Chua and Rubenfeld single out Mormons for model-minority status as well. They attribute Mormon business success, for instance, to the group's principles of child rearing. "Mormon teenagers," they write, "are less likely to have sexual intercourse, consume alcohol, smoke pot, or watch X-rated films than teenagers of any other faith." The authors overlook one small point about Mormons, however: they have their own state. Eighty percent of the Utah legislature is Mormon; its entire congressional delegation is Mormon. Utah has had only three non-Mormon governors in its history. This translates to tremendous political and financial clout for the religion, which is an indispensable part of Mormon business success.

Read more: The 'Tiger Mom' Superiority Complex - TIME http://content.time.com/time/magazine/ar...z2rp2JnsNh