[Hencredible Casanova]

(01-03-2014 04:50 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I'll give you my personal anecdote:

Dishwashers are hard to find. It's insane. Even Mexicans are over it. It's rare that I get a Mexican dishwasher that speaks fluent English. If they can speak English, they've got a better job somewhere else. So I only get guys from dusty little northern towns in Sonora or Chihuahua that speak zero to little English. If and when these guys leave, I've got a job opening. I know with 100% of my heart that job will be filled by another non-English speaking Mexican, Central American, or Filipino.

I have a similar anecdote. I once had an interesting experience one summer while out of school to run a cafe owned by a Turkish guy on Capitol Hill. I was on my bike hitting up various bars in DC looking for bartending work at night. I walked into this wellness store and cafe and the Turkish lady who was working there took a liking to me and made me a ridiculous offer. She said she was going to Istanbul in a few days to meet her son, which is where her and her husband send him to live with her parents every summer. He was in grade school and instead of staying home in the summer they figured he would have a better experience living in Istanbul and learning their culture firsthand. She said she hadn't been able to find someone to run the store for the month and a half she'll be gone and that I seemed like a trustworthy guy so she wanted me to meet her husband. They had just opened a Mediterranean resto (their second business) in another part of DC and he was spending most of his time there to get it up and running. So she asked for my number and I agreed to return to meet her husband. We met and he felt comfortable enough to let me handle the responsibility. Never been in a situation like that with total strangers.

So I ran the store for a good part of the summer. The guy would come in every now and then to check the books and make sure I wasn't stealing money and, of course, everything checked out so he really was grateful to me. I was in a LTR at that time so I would just chill at the store, arrange orders and deliveries, and speak to customers and have my girl come hang out sometimes. The customers were the best part because I was right near the Capitol. I met a bunch of politicians (Jesse Jackson Jr.), lobbyists, and lawyers. The business a few doors down was run by a Harvard-trained lawyer who managed political campaigns, including one for Arnold Schwarznegger. Anytime him or his employees came through to get lunch, we never charged them because that guy helped out with a loan once that helped the business during hard times.

I managed one employee, who was a Mexican lady that cooked all the meals and opened/closed the store. The business made healthy smoothies, salads, and sandwiches for customers. I can't even tell you how important that lady was to the business. She was an incredibly hard worker. Didn't speak good English but it was cool since I spoke Spanish well enough to communicate with her. I'm mostly sure she was paid under the table, as was I. Not 100% sure about her because the owner kept certain financial info concealed from me. Don't see how the business could have afforded paying someone legally to do the job due to taxes, while maintaining the same level of service and productivity. I think you'd have to hire TWO Americans at higher wages to get the same productivity. Not even maybe. I know I wouldn't have done her job at her pay under the table. Not even two of MEs could match her relentless work ethic. Not sure what her status was but I would guess it was illegal.

It was an eye-opening experience though.

[Veloce]

(01-03-2014 05:11 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Allowing illegals to have driver licenses and to get student loans is bypassing those regulations.

Access to programs paid by tax payers is bypassing those regulations.

Allowing them to work is bypassing those regulations.

By opening the door more, I suspect you will still have a worker shortage for low wage jobs. Who in their right mind would work a low paying job while they could be making roughly 36k in welfare benefits? I don't think we can afford more people on welfare.

Fully in agreement with you here.

I disagree that raising wages will attract non-illegals. However for the sake of argument, lets consider that scenario.

I can't speak for other industries, but the profits in many food production operations is quite thin. To make a long story short, if you raised the wages of dishwashers to $15 per hour, we simply wouldn't be able to afford them. We'd have to pass off the increased expense directly to the consumer through higher menu prices and check averages. The $32 entree becomes a $40 entree.

I operate my department on a firm percentage based budget. I know that 10% of my gross food sales goes to hourly labor. An increase of even 1% of my labor budget is significant and would reduce already slim profits to next to nothing. That money has to come from somewhere.

This just opens up the discussion on inflation vs. wages which at this point puts this thread over the edge. Let's just land this plane.

[speakeasy]

(01-03-2014 06:34 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(01-03-2014 05:11 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Allowing illegals to have driver licenses and to get student loans is bypassing those regulations.

Access to programs paid by tax payers is bypassing those regulations.

Allowing them to work is bypassing those regulations.

By opening the door more, I suspect you will still have a worker shortage for low wage jobs. Who in their right mind would work a low paying job while they could be making roughly 36k in welfare benefits? I don't think we can afford more people on welfare.

Fully in agreement with you here.

I disagree that raising wages will attract non-illegals. However for the sake of argument, lets consider that scenario.

I can't speak for other industries, but the profits in many food production operations is quite thin. To make a long story short, if you raised the wages of dishwashers to $15 per hour, we simply wouldn't be able to afford them. We'd have to pass off the increased expense directly to the consumer through higher menu prices and check averages. The $32 entree becomes a $40 entree.

I operate my department on a firm percentage based budget. I know that 10% of my gross food sales goes to hourly labor. An increase of even 1% of my labor budget is significant and would reduce already slim profits to next to nothing. That money has to come from somewhere.

This just opens up the discussion on inflation vs. wages which at this point puts this thread over the edge. Let's just land this plane.

http://laist.com/2013/12/30/why_in-n-out...s_didn.php

Can someone explain to me how Inn-n-out can pay its workers $10.50/hr + benefits(for both FT and PT employees) and it's managers up to $120,000 a year while selling meals that cost $7 on average? Why does their business model of relative high wages work out for them? Especially in an industry where wages are usually the bare minimum. As an aside, Inn-N-Out is the ONLY fast food chain in California where I see whites and blacks working. Every other place is 100% Latino. Just an observation.

Edit -- Even though Inn N Out has the most generous compensation package in America for fast food workers, by the standards of other Western countries it still falls way behind. A McDonald's worker in Australia of course has the advantage of universal health care and their wages start at $15/hr. From what I hear you can actually live a middle class life in Scandinavia if you flip burgers. Yet in America we just can't seem to ever get wages up and everyone just sort of accepts it as an axiom of life that the rich are going to get richer and the poor poorer and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Lemmo]

(01-02-2014 10:15 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(01-02-2014 09:56 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Also, why has no one cited data when making claims about the economic and social impact of illegal immigrants? I'm just supposed to take your word?

The studies have been done. I don't link to them because it won't change your mind. Your political views are very conventional/PC.

Here's one of many, though:

http://cis.org/High-Cost-of-Cheap-Labor

Economists have done a poor job predicting/getting most anything right.

I don't value the consensus of economists.

Anyhow, you don't need to be an economist to see what has happened to California.

Previously livable neighborhoods and entire cities have gone to shit thanks to the influx of unskilled labor.

And there is no consensus. Anyone arguing that "immigration is good cause smart man tolds me so" obviously hasn't bothered to do any research. Plenty of studies about costs to social services, crime, retardation of technological progress, etc. And of course there is the little thing called common sense, which would suggest allowing the least educated people in the world to enter the country by the millions might be a bad thing for economic and non-economic reasons. As you point out, Americans have made their judgment of these immigrants by refusing to live, work or go to school with them to the extent they have the means to avoid them.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-03-2014 06:34 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(01-03-2014 05:11 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Allowing illegals to have driver licenses and to get student loans is bypassing those regulations.

Access to programs paid by tax payers is bypassing those regulations.

Allowing them to work is bypassing those regulations.

By opening the door more, I suspect you will still have a worker shortage for low wage jobs. Who in their right mind would work a low paying job while they could be making roughly 36k in welfare benefits? I don't think we can afford more people on welfare.

Fully in agreement with you here.

I disagree that raising wages will attract non-illegals. However for the sake of argument, lets consider that scenario.

Sure it would. I bet there would be plenty of people that would take that job for 10, 20 or 30 bucks an hour. There is always a price.

Quote:



I can't speak for other industries, but the profits in many food production operations is quite thin. To make a long story short, if you raised the wages of dishwashers to $15 per hour, we simply wouldn't be able to afford them. We'd have to pass off the increased expense directly to the consumer through higher menu prices and check averages. The $32 entree becomes a $40 entree.

Exactly, and that is what I said in a couple of posts. That increase will be passed on to consumers and those consumers won't like that. Even the consumers that think illegal immigration is bad.

Same as the debate over Walmart. People think those workers don't get paid enough. Those same people would cry because of paying higher prices to subsidize higher wages.

You can't have both, there needs to be a middle ground.

Illegal immigration plays an important part in our economy. It helps keep prices down. The problem is when you offer them a path to citizenship they will have the same welfare benefits that everyone else has.

That means they have options other than working for really low wages as a dishwasher.

I remember watching a documentary on supermarkets. It sounds a lot like the restaurant industry based on razor thin margins. They try to make it up on volume which would be difficult in your biz.

[Veloce]

(01-03-2014 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(01-03-2014 06:34 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(01-03-2014 05:11 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Allowing illegals to have driver licenses and to get student loans is bypassing those regulations.

Access to programs paid by tax payers is bypassing those regulations.

Allowing them to work is bypassing those regulations.

By opening the door more, I suspect you will still have a worker shortage for low wage jobs. Who in their right mind would work a low paying job while they could be making roughly 36k in welfare benefits? I don't think we can afford more people on welfare.

Fully in agreement with you here.

I disagree that raising wages will attract non-illegals. However for the sake of argument, lets consider that scenario.

I can't speak for other industries, but the profits in many food production operations is quite thin. To make a long story short, if you raised the wages of dishwashers to $15 per hour, we simply wouldn't be able to afford them. We'd have to pass off the increased expense directly to the consumer through higher menu prices and check averages. The $32 entree becomes a $40 entree.

I operate my department on a firm percentage based budget. I know that 10% of my gross food sales goes to hourly labor. An increase of even 1% of my labor budget is significant and would reduce already slim profits to next to nothing. That money has to come from somewhere.

This just opens up the discussion on inflation vs. wages which at this point puts this thread over the edge. Let's just land this plane.

http://laist.com/2013/12/30/why_in-n-out...s_didn.php

Can someone explain to me how Inn-n-out can pay its workers $10.50/hr + benefits(for both FT and PT employees) and it's managers up to $120,000 a year while selling meals that cost $7 on average? Why does their business model of relative high wages work out for them? Especially in an industry where wages are usually the minimum. As an aside, Inn-N-Out is the ONLY fast food chain in California where I see whites and blacks working. Every other place is 100% Latino. Just an observation.

$10.50 for cooks isn't very much. I start cooks at $11 and go up to $13.

In 'n' Out is the ideal food operation. It's a limited menu so there's zero waste. They're constantly busy. It's a good product that people like. They've likely established several contracts with their vendors that locks in prices for years to come, keeping their cost-of-goods low. It's a formula that works extremely well, and Chipotle is on a similar model.

McDonald's pales in comparison because of the gigantic menu. The "Big-boys" of fast food have a GIGANTIC amount of waste, it's pretty horrible actually.

When all you have is burgers, fries, and shakes on the menu, there's zero waste. That's quite a rare feat for a fast-food business to acheive. Every other company has to offset their waste with either higher prices, or cutting costs elsewhere, like wages.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-03-2014 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

http://laist.com/2013/12/30/why_in-n-out...s_didn.php

Can someone explain to me how Inn-n-out can pay its workers $10.50/hr + benefits(for both FT and PT employees) and it's managers up to $120,000 a year while selling meals that cost $7 on average? Why does their business model of relative high wages work out for them? Especially in an industry where wages are usually the minimum. As an aside, Inn-N-Out is the ONLY fast food chain in California where I see whites and blacks working. Every other place is 100% Latino. Just an observation.

Edit -- Even though Inn N Out has the most generation compensation package in America for fast food workers, by the standards of other Western countries it still falls way behind. A McDonald's worker in Australia of course has the advantage of universal health care and their wages start at $15/hr. From what I hear you can actually live a middle class life in Scandinavia if you flip burgers. Yet in America we just can't seem to ever get wages up and everyone just sort of accepts it as an axiom of life that the rich are going to get richer and the poor poorer and there's nothing you can do about it.

I would say part of the reason is because it is privately owned.

[speakeasy]

(01-03-2014 06:52 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Exactly, and that is what I said in a couple of posts. That increase will be passed on to consumers and those consumers won't like that. Even the consumers that think illegal immigration is bad.

Same as the debate over Walmart. People think those workers don't get paid enough. Those same people would cry because of paying higher prices to subsidize higher wages.

You can't have both, there needs to be a middle ground.

Illegal immigration plays an important part in our economy. It helps keep prices down. The problem is when you offer them a path to citizenship they will have the same welfare benefits that everyone else.

That means they have options other than working for really low wages as a dishwasher.

I remember watching a documentary on supermarkets. It sounds a lot like the restaurant industry based on razor thin margins. They try to make it up on volume which would be difficult in your biz.

That's the rationale always thrown out when the Democrats try to raise the minimum wage. If we listened to this, the minimum wage would still be $2. Yet people still continue to shop there, so if prices are being raised, they are not being raised enough to deter consumers. There's no way you can tell me that Walmart, being one of the largest and wealthiest global corporations in the world cannot afford to pay a bit more. They aren't some marginal mom and pop business selling used books.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(01-03-2014 06:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

http://laist.com/2013/12/30/why_in-n-out...s_didn.php

Can someone explain to me how Inn-n-out can pay its workers $10.50/hr + benefits(for both FT and PT employees) and it's managers up to $120,000 a year while selling meals that cost $7 on average? Why does their business model of relative high wages work out for them? Especially in an industry where wages are usually the minimum. As an aside, Inn-N-Out is the ONLY fast food chain in California where I see whites and blacks working. Every other place is 100% Latino. Just an observation.

Edit -- Even though Inn N Out has the most generation compensation package in America for fast food workers, by the standards of other Western countries it still falls way behind. A McDonald's worker in Australia of course has the advantage of universal health care and their wages start at $15/hr. From what I hear you can actually live a middle class life in Scandinavia if you flip burgers. Yet in America we just can't seem to ever get wages up and everyone just sort of accepts it as an axiom of life that the rich are going to get richer and the poor poorer and there's nothing you can do about it.

Yeah. I've met young world-traveling waitresses from Scandinavia.

Australia is a rich country for its size. It only has 20 million people (about the same population as NY state) yet is a continent and country the same size as the US in land area (and with immense natural resources). It's also geographically isolated and cheap labor isn't widely available. Those cited hourly rates are gross, not net, and they pay lot more income tax than Americans.

As for your question about In N Out, I can only say In N Out is a private company with a limited presence (just a few western states I believe). Would it be able to keep the pay levels high if it expanded across the globe like Mickey D's? Mickey D's constantly invests profits into expanded growth, similar to Starbucks.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-03-2014 07:00 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(01-03-2014 06:52 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Exactly, and that is what I said in a couple of posts. That increase will be passed on to consumers and those consumers won't like that. Even the consumers that think illegal immigration is bad.

Same as the debate over Walmart. People think those workers don't get paid enough. Those same people would cry because of paying higher prices to subsidize higher wages.

You can't have both, there needs to be a middle ground.

Illegal immigration plays an important part in our economy. It helps keep prices down. The problem is when you offer them a path to citizenship they will have the same welfare benefits that everyone else.

That means they have options other than working for really low wages as a dishwasher.

I remember watching a documentary on supermarkets. It sounds a lot like the restaurant industry based on razor thin margins. They try to make it up on volume which would be difficult in your biz.

That's the rationale always thrown out when the Democrats try to raise the minimum wage. If we listened to this, the minimum wage would still be $2. Yet people still continue to shop there, so if prices are being raised, they are not being raised enough to deter consumers. There's no way you can tell me that Walmart, being one of the largest and wealthiest global corporations in the world cannot afford to pay a bit more. They aren't some marginal mom and pop business selling used books.

Why should Walmart pay more?

If people don't want to work for what they pay, they will have to raise their wages to meet demand.

[Hotwheels]

Concerning wages;

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Illegals keep wages artificially low.

[speakeasy]

(01-03-2014 07:04 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Why should Walmart pay more?

If people don't want to work for what they pay, they will have to raise their wages to meet demand.

I don't expect Walmart to want to pay more out of the kindness of their hearts. Corporations exist to make money, not to be kind to people. That's where government comes in and why we have minimum wage laws, otherwise Walmart would pay $4 an hour if they could get away with it.

As for why people work for them? Come on man...Unemployment rates are high. Even though the average rate may be 7-8%, for the marginal and those in rural areas, it's probably 3 or 4 times that. NOBODY works at Walmart because they want to.

[TheSlayer]

(01-03-2014 07:13 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I don't expect Walmart to want to pay more out of the kindness of their hearts. Corporations exist to make money, not to be kind to people. That's where government comes in and why we have minimum wage laws, otherwise Walmart would pay $4 an hour if they could get away with it.

Well said. I don't expect jobs which require almost no skills to be high paying but there are companies that manage to pay well and take care of their workers. Costco pays it's workers above minimum wages in all of its stores and 80%+ of their workers have health benefits.

This 'race to the bottom' mentality for wages and benefits which we are told to accept by corporations is not good for society overall. There was some study that many workers making low wages relied on welfare from government to make ends meet and in essence the taxpayers are subsidizing these companies.

There is also something to be said that many of these low-paying jobs are becoming permanent careers for millions of people in the US and Canada as jobs are permanently shipped to developing nations. These jobs are not simply anymore for students or young adults looking to make a quick buck and then transitioning to better jobs.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-03-2014 07:13 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I don't expect Walmart to want to pay more out of the kindness of their hearts. Corporations exist to make money, not to be kind to people. That's where government comes in and why we have minimum wage laws, otherwise Walmart would pay $4 an hour if they could get away with it.

As for why people work for them? Come on man...Unemployment rates are high. Even though the average rate may be 7-8%, for the marginal and those in rural areas, it's probably 3 or 4 times that. NOBODY works at Walmart because they want to.

So pushing Walmart to pay more is the answer?

It sounds like many people should be kissing their ass for a job regardless if they want it or not

In the end, people will just pay more for products so that bump in wage will be taken out by more taxes and higher product prices.

Walmart doesn't stop people from going back to university or trade school in order to get a better job. I had a few friends who did just that in order to stay competitive in today's market.