[kerouac]

Fisto, from what I remember seeing looking at different advertisements, a lot of the Salsa studios offer the first class for free (I think) so you can hit up a few and see which ones have the biggest booty latinas.

Back to the diet, should I be eating 1.5x(g) of protein according to my non-fat bodyweight (bodyweight-fatweight), or total body weight? I kicked myself off keto this weekend when I drank and ate like shit, but going back into a more moderate diet (trying to throw in complex carbs).

What do you guys think of the 4hww complex carb + protein diet? Do you think taking one day off from the regimen is a good idea?

All these diets are giving opposing information! The vegan food pyramid emphasizes eating a lot of carbs, whereas the low-carb diets are emphasizing fat+protein. Basically contradicting each other!

[GrumpStar]

kerouac, the high-protien diets were originally invented by MDs (Atkins and others) attempting to make money by pushing quick fixes. While these diets do work initially, your body will adjust and you'll be right back where you were. Also, eating all that animal-based protein (Google Casein Protein) is REALLY VERY unhealthy. It's like losing weight by developing a heroin addiction. What you're not told about these types of diets is that the people who lost lots of weight in the "clinical trials" also practiced significant caloric restriction down to ~1500 cals/day. I don't care if all you eat is butter and McDonalds, if you're only eating 1500 cals/day you WILL lose weight!

See my earlier post about different kinds of carbs. Complex carbs found in whole grains (foods like quinoa, Oatmeal, Lentils and beans etc) are metabolized by your body differently then simple carbs (cake, most muffins and baked goods and many cereals). Simple carbs turn into sugar, then fat. Complex carbs do not. I lost 40 lbs on a whole-foods, plant based oil-free diet and wasn't ever hungry.

Seriously, check out the book I cited in the earlier post, "The China Study." It's written by three of the foremost nutritional scientists of our time and will explain, in detail, everything I've mentioned here.

[Duke Castile]

I disagree, the aspiring athlete or professional athlete cannot perform optimally with a high carb diet. Carbs make you weak. Lentils and beans will irritate your digestive track. I know some of the fittest people on the planet and they are on a Paleo diet that has proteins and fats as their main source of food. Mcdonalds has massive amounts of calories in it so that doesn't make sense to say you can eat low carb/calories with McD's. That isn't representative of what a low carb athletic performance diet is about. The Paleo diet is not an Atkins diet, and you will not be in a constant state of Ketosis while you're on it. It is not a gimmick diet based on marketing. Paleo foods take into account the quality of certain foods and their ability to assimilate to the human body. I'm not saying quinoa isn't good for you (I like to eat millet), I'm saying you will feel and look your best on paleo.

http://www.livingpaleo.com/articles/The-...amids.html

[GrumpStar]

My point was that folks who have lost lots of weight and kept it off using Atkins (or other low-carb, high-fat spin-offs) also practiced caloric restriction on the order of ~1500/day. Doesn't matter what you eat... if you're restricting calories to 1500/day you'll loose weight unless you're in a coma.

You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with 30 years of nutritional science conducted by highly respected groups of physicians, biologists, and nutritionalists aligned with major research institutions using the most sophisticated scientific techniques of our time. I'm not saying you can't lose weight and increase fitness with Paleo or Atkins, but you won't be optimizing your ability to do so!

There are MANY pro athletes who live by whole-foods, plant-based (WFPB) diets. I've listed a few below, but the list goes on and on. I live in a very fitness-oriented part of the country and the most ripped, fittest people I know are WFPB.

The science is clear. The results are unmistakable .... I recommend these books:

* The All-Pro Diet: Lose Fat, Build Muscle, and Live Like a Champion
* The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-Term Health
* Football Training: For the Athlete, by the Athlete
* Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure

WFBP athletes:

Ridgely Abele:
Winner of eight national championships in karate

Chris Campbell:
Olympic wrestling champion

Desmond Howard:
Heisman trophy winner

Peter Hussing:
European super heavy-weight boxing champion

[Duke Castile]

Are you saying science "proves" that your body performs better when you eat Grains over red meat?

Are you saying science "proves" that your body assimilates lentils to its needs better than red meat?

I think you may be taking a lot of things for granted. Your digestive track hasn't changed in over 30k years, I agree that whole foods are better but, If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that a diet of plant based foods are better for you than protein that comes from animals, which has not been proved by science at all.

Also, sidenote, Campbell was not an Olympic champion, he won a bronze.

[Duke Castile]

(12-20-2010 06:42 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Are you saying science "proves" that your body performs better when you eat Grains over red meat?

Are you saying science "proves" that your body assimilates lentils to its needs better than red meat?

I think you may be taking a lot of things for granted. Your digestive track hasn't changed in over 30k years, I agree that whole foods are better but, If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that a diet of plant based foods are better for you than protein that comes from animals, which has not been proved by science at all.

Also, sidenote, Campbell was not an Olympic champion, he won a bronze. In fact, none of the athletes you mention are the best or fittest athletes in the world. Karate?? come on....

[Rocco81]

Fisto, you eat Paleo?

I try to eat clean man but its hard. I also love beer and women too much to ever be fully ripped. I do need to get back to Veggies, Chicken and nuts that was pretty goot for me while it lasted.

[GrumpStar]

Fisto, I'm (me personally) not saying that science proves those things... sciences says that science proves those things.

"Your digestive track hasn't changed in over 30k years" -- (it's actually ~75,000 years) but... Exactly! Besides a few very small isolated communities (with life expectancies in the early 30s), humans have received 90% of their calories from plants for the vast majority of hominid evolution. The term "Paleo" is historically inaccurate.

I'd say winning a bronze qualifies a person as an Olympic champion and these names were only the ones I had written down in my notes from reading. There are many more!

hey bud... I've given you the tools, it's up to you to use them!

[GrumpStar]

(12-20-2010 06:59 PM)Rocco81 Wrote:  

Fisto, you eat Paleo?

I try to eat clean man but its hard. I also love beer and women too much to ever be fully ripped. I do need to get back to Veggies, Chicken and nuts that was pretty goot for me while it lasted.

Shit man, I hear that! Clean eating can be a real pain in the ass especially with the girls and booze... I've set a goal of getting 80% of my calories from clean sources. That leaves room for 2-3 "bad" meals per week and does a decent job of maintaining my current weight. Two easy things I've done is make my own lunches for work, and stay far away from the post-booze feeding fiascos at shitty late-night restaurants.

[Duke Castile]

GS,

1st off, I should have addressed this earlier, CARBS ARE SUGAR. It doesn't matter if they are simple or complex. Both raise your insulin levels. And for God's sugar does NOT "turn into fat". That's impossible. Sugar raises insulin levels which causes your body to store calories as fat. That's basic bio chemistry.

The China Study has been disproven ages ago, in fact all recent medical studies coming out are basically saying "oops we were wrong". Saturated fat for example is not bad for you. Here is an article in the LA times TODAY. http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-carb...4425.story

also read wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-stuck-at-starting.html

I don't want to nitpick but placing 3rd is not the Champion. That title is reserved for the man with the Gold medal. Like I said, none of the athletes you mentioned are the BEST or Fittest or even healthiest people. Karate??? Have you actually seen photos of the guys you're writing down?

Edit, the "30k" number is a mistype, the paleo diet is "historically accurate"

[GrumpStar]

That's true but it depends on the type of saturated fat. SF from animal sources is, most certainly, still considered unhealthy. Anyway, I'll just say that every major sports nutritional research institution (Harvard, Yale, John-Hopkins, Mayo Clinic) advocate some version of a WFPB diet for optimal athletic performance and health. It's hard for me to argue with that. I suppose that optimal athletic performance is different from growing huge muscles so at some level your diet depends on your fitness goals... but I'm more concerned with athletic prowess then being muscle-bound.

[oldnemesis]

The main problem for me was, and still is, being able to work on restricted calories. I wonder how it works for those of you who do work which requires a lot of thinking and concentration (think spending 10 hours a day in front of your computer in a quiet room)? My brain pretty much refuses to concentrate on deep things without sugars. Real one; sugar replacements can fool your taste but not your body. How do you guys handle it?

[GrumpStar]

(12-20-2010 08:05 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

The main problem for me was, and still is, being able to work on restricted calories. I wonder how it works for those of you who do work which requires a lot of thinking and concentration (think spending 10 hours a day in front of your computer in a quiet room)? My brain pretty much refuses to concentrate on deep things without sugars. Real one; sugar replacements can fool your taste but not your body. How do you guys handle it?

oldnemesis, I also have a similar job. That's one of the beauties of WFPB, you can't eat enough to gain unwanted weight unless you're uncomfortably stuffing yourself at every meal. As for the sugar, let me ask: do you regularly consume foods high in simple carbs (sodas, refined grains etc) ?

[Duke Castile]

Who is trying to be musclebound? I've been referring to fitness and performance over and over....musclebound is not functional or fit...Now we're talking about "versions" of wfpb?

If you're talking about eating a plant, I'm for it. If you're talking about grain, you're wrong. Every day a new study comes out saying grains are not good for you, that it causes and insulin spike which fucks up your pancreas etc etc.

Rocco, yeah bro, I'm all about the paleo diet with zone blocks. It's not that bad once you get into the habit, the not drinking is the only hard part for me.

Kerouac and others who are interested, read this quick synopsis.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-diet.html

[Biz]

You guys are beating a dead horse, regardless of whatever type of diet it is, at some point someone is going to question it and find it to be wrong for whatever reason.

The whole science behind it all is probably the biggest bullshit.

[GrumpStar]

(12-20-2010 09:32 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Who is trying to be musclebound? I've been referring to fitness and performance over and over....musclebound is not functional or fit...Now we're talking about "versions" of wfpb?

If you're talking about eating a plant, I'm for it. If you're talking about grain, you're wrong. Every day a new study comes out saying grains are not good for you, that it causes and insulin spike which fucks up your pancreas etc etc.

Rocco, yeah bro, I'm all about the paleo diet with zone blocks. It's not that bad once you get into the habit, the not drinking is the only hard part for me.

Kerouac and others who are interested, read this quick synopsis.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-diet.html

The opinions of the the Docs and Nutritionalists at the Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research and the University of Colorado Sports Medicine Center both advocate a WFPB (that stands for whole foods, plant based) diet for optimum athletic performance and health. This means >85% of calories come from plants and whole grains. Since it takes years of study to become an expert in this field, I'll defer to the experts and not a Crossfit trainer. Shit, even Chuck Liddell eats a modified version of WFPB during certain months of his training. Anyway, I've had amazing results with WFPB, as have many of my athletic friends.

[GrumpStar]

(12-20-2010 09:32 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Who is trying to be musclebound? I've been referring to fitness and performance over and over....musclebound is not functional or fit...Now we're talking about "versions" of wfpb?

If you're talking about eating a plant, I'm for it. If you're talking about grain, you're wrong. Every day a new study comes out saying grains are not good for you, that it causes and insulin spike which fucks up your pancreas etc etc.

Rocco, yeah bro, I'm all about the paleo diet with zone blocks. It's not that bad once you get into the habit, the not drinking is the only hard part for me.

Kerouac and others who are interested, read this quick synopsis.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-diet.html

Note the use of the terminology "high glycemic carbohydrates" in this article. These are simple carbs which are to be avoided (as i've mentioned). There aren't many difference between the diet outlined in this Crossfit link and WFPB, accept for the amount of lean meat which is ok in the short term but leads to long-term health problems.

[Duke Castile]

Well, that's just like, your opinion man - The Dude

[Rocco81]

Nemesis - I know how you feel. I have/had the same problem whenever I try to cut weight. I modify my diet and I cannot get the mental acuity I need at work. I end up bieng more forgetful, feeling sluggish, and just overall more mentally fatigued.

(12-20-2010 08:05 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

The main problem for me was, and still is, being able to work on restricted calories. I wonder how it works for those of you who do work which requires a lot of thinking and concentration (think spending 10 hours a day in front of your computer in a quiet room)? My brain pretty much refuses to concentrate on deep things without sugars. Real one; sugar replacements can fool your taste but not your body. How do you guys handle it?

[Moma]

(12-20-2010 06:59 PM)Rocco81 Wrote:  

Fisto, you eat Paleo?

I try to eat clean man but its hard. I also love beer and women too much to ever be fully ripped. I do need to get back to Veggies, Chicken and nuts that was pretty goot for me while it lasted.

What does the love of women have to do with not being able to get ripped? I can understand beer, it gives you a gut but jooking women actually gets you in great shape.

In fact, if it wasn't for the love of women, I wouldn't even bother lifting weights. The amount of game needed is inversely related to how ripped one is.
The tighter the bod, the less game that is needed to close the deal (up to a certain point).

I closed a lizard recently only because I had to rush to answer the door (she came over) after a fresh shower and she could see the outline of my frame.
After that, it was as easy as A,B,C when I told her "there is no need to rush home and just come and sit over here by me".

In fact, I like an alcholic buzz but I don't like having a big stomach that's why I fux with hard liquor and forego on the yeast.

[JayMillz]

(12-21-2010 11:24 AM)Moma Wrote:  

The amount of game needed is inversely related to how ripped one is.
The tighter the bod, the less game that is needed to close the deal (up to a certain point).

I agree. I'm trying to get the right gear to accentuate the body as well so babes can see the work when I'm out and about or traveling in SA. Good luck!

[Quasi]

I eat carbs in bigger amounts when bulking like now, otherwise Im more paleo like.. salmon, avocado, milk, nuts, eggs (lots of them), tomatoes, butter etc etc, but I do eat some pasta and potatoes, like one meal a day and normally oatmeal/protein powder/walnuts for breakfeast.

Lots of carbs makes you bloated like hell and feeling like shit.. in my case.. but combined with the right rest, training regimen you do become swollen but also immensely strong especially when its cycled in a body not used to it... I eat everything right now..especially more carbs with all meals to build mass quickly.. but I dont do it for more than three months and look forward to getting back on my normal shredded pretty boy diet

[OSL]

Fisto you should make an MMA/Diet/Lifestyle blog and/or ebook.

[Invictus]

Anyone ever had success with "getting big" while cutting body-fat?

I understand this is possible, but only for those already grossly out of shape, but I'm curious as to whether it's possible to avoid doing everything in two seperate steps, ie. step 1: bulk, step 2: cut.

Just one step: eat right, get huge, get shredded.

[Biz]

(12-22-2010 08:08 AM)Invictus Wrote:  

Anyone ever had success with "getting big" while cutting body-fat?

I understand this is possible, but only for those already grossly out of shape, but I'm curious as to whether it's possible to avoid doing everything in two seperate steps, ie. step 1: bulk, step 2: cut.

Just one step: eat right, get huge, get shredded.

It really is just one step: eat right...

Everything is built in the kitchen, if you know what your doing in there then you already have the hard part under control.