[Steve Derekson]

So experience has taught me. I notice a lot of threads mentioning that they require a "special game".

1. The more attractive the woman, the more likely she will be approached by the kind of man who approaches attractive women. This kind of man views hunting, seducing and conquering women as sport. We have all been doing this for a long time, and it still takes balls to approach a 9. Result: Since experienced players are so rare, attractive women rarely get approached. Think "she's out of my league."

2. When an attractive woman does get approached, she does so by men that are too nervous and intimidated to be able to create any attraction or connection. Most have never been approached by a true player and, hence, they have been hurt less. This translates to a more open channelway to her emotions.

3. There are far more attractive women than millionaires. There is a misconception among men that these women will only go for rich men. This is true on some level with some of these women, but a true player can access her emotions and disable her logical forebrain. This will not last for an LTR, and dating a woman with options means she will probably cheat sooner or later. But, most women will, and in the context of mini-relationships, I can accept that. Some of them are suitable for LTRs, but you must filter for strong values (just like with all other women).

4. A woman would rather be single than date a man cannot access her emotions. Most men simply cannot operate emotionally around stunners.

5. To a hunter, a woman’s body is a commodity; he wins the game by getting her into bed. Few men in her life will have stuck around past the month or two of validation. I find these girls have a more "idealized" version of love than most, something that is a known dopamine-liberator in men.

6. Some attractive girls have "player-awareness", and forcing a strong connection with a dating frame is more effective than with uglier girls.

7. These girls believe your approach is genuine. Uglier girls have more severe bitch-shields for two reasons: 1. She is approached more. 2. At the same time, she subconsciously knows her value and questions your intentions.

8. Attraction mechanisms are more effective. Most stunners are not used to being disagreed with.

A lot of it comes down to the fact that she is simply not used to being effectively seduced. Therefore, the player that has his game down and has desensitized himself to beauty will have it easier. This is not to say you won't get flakes and all of the other obstacles of game, you will, but these things are to be attached to the randomness of pickup, not the beauty of the girl. You have more cards to play, but remember it is still poker.

Plain women know more about men than beautiful ones do.
- Katherine Hepburn

[soup]

This was looking cool, but 1 and 2 completely contradict each other..

What is your personal experience with higher quality women? Judging by the fact that you even believe that 10s exist in real life, I'm guessing not much.

Why don't you write about stuff you know instead of trying to impress us with a list of contradicting theories?

I am curious about this- tell us about your last bang or something.

[The Beast1]

(12-09-2013 12:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

This was looking cool, but 1 and 2 completely contradict each other..

Not really, they could be merged together. The men who actively pursue women whose beauty they are not intimidated by tend to get the lay. Most guys who interact with pretty women through social networks get hella intimidated.

[soup]

(12-09-2013 12:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

This was looking cool, but 1 and 2 completely contradict each other..

Not really, they could be merged together. The men who actively pursue women whose beauty they are not intimidated by tend to get the lay. Most guys who interact with pretty women through social networks get hella intimidated.

In the first one he says that only players approach hot women (infrequently), then he goes on to say that women are constantly getting approached by guys with bad game.

[The Beast1]

(12-09-2013 12:18 PM)soup Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

This was looking cool, but 1 and 2 completely contradict each other..

Not really, they could be merged together. The men who actively pursue women whose beauty they are not intimidated by tend to get the lay. Most guys who interact with pretty women through social networks get hella intimidated.

In the first one he says that only players approach hot women, then he goes on to say that women are constantly getting approached by guys with bad game.

It's convoluted. I got the distinction and since I try to live my life not as a C# compiler, I'll forgive his syntax

It would be better to say, "Most of these women are approached by guys with bad game. When someone with real game comes out and knows how to press the buttons even if it isn't that effective they are still more receptive."

[soup]

(12-09-2013 12:19 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:18 PM)soup Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

This was looking cool, but 1 and 2 completely contradict each other..

Not really, they could be merged together. The men who actively pursue women whose beauty they are not intimidated by tend to get the lay. Most guys who interact with pretty women through social networks get hella intimidated.

In the first one he says that only players approach hot women, then he goes on to say that women are constantly getting approached by guys with bad game.

It's convoluted. I got the distinction and since I try to live my life not as a C# compiler, I'll forgive his syntax

It would be better to say, "Most of these women are approached by guys with bad game. When someone with real game comes out and knows how to press the buttons even if it isn't that effective they are still more receptive."

Yes, but all girls are more receptive to the guys with better game, so that doesn't really help with finer women.

What this really comes down to is what does it mean to have good game?

Does having good game mean that you can talk to girls of any quality (8-9s require different approach than 6-7s), or does it mean that he only deals in higher quality women, and wouldn't know how to talk to a lower girl.

I find that there are some lower quality women that I just can't get through to because my heart is not in the interaction enough for me to will myself to really throw down.

[Que enspastic]

This thesis is lacking. If 9-10s were easier I'd never bang 7s

[Frank Mackey]

With all due respect, we can spend hours discussing the merits of each of your arguments, but it would be a waste of time...

The problem is, your theory will hardly work in reality. Just go to the field and try to bang 9s and 10s. Then repeat the procedure with 6s and 7s. Whether you look like Brad Pitt or not, whether you are the ultimate leader of the seduction arts or not, the results with 6s and 7s will always be far more consistent.

Yes, there are exceptions. There are 3s that are very difficult to game due to a variety of reasons (looking for long commitment, lack of confidence). There are 9s that will happily bang the next fellow, also for a variet of reasons (special stage in their life, holidays, away from friends/family, drunk, etc).

But 9s and 10s are usually more difficult.

This is the reality. It can be easily explained from an economical perspective: the higher the demand, the higher the prices....

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 12:18 PM)soup Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:16 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 12:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

This was looking cool, but 1 and 2 completely contradict each other..

Not really, they could be merged together. The men who actively pursue women whose beauty they are not intimidated by tend to get the lay. Most guys who interact with pretty women through social networks get hella intimidated.

In the first one he says that only players approach hot women (infrequently), then he goes on to say that women are constantly getting approached by guys with bad game.

I never said they are constantly getting approached. I am saying that in the very rare instances they do get approached, it is usually by men who are too nervous to operate. These men have garnered a huge amount of confidence to do so, therefore it is hardly what you define as "constantly". It takes a lot of balls to approach a very attractive woman, so 99% of men are already out the door. The remaining 1% are the men who don't care, similar to the drunkards. The problem is a less attractive woman is far more likely to be approached overall, not to mention by guys who can actually speak to her without getting all pussy-whipped.

(12-09-2013 12:30 PM)Frank Mackey Wrote:  

With all due respect, we can spend hours discussing the merits of each of your arguments, but it would be a waste of time...

The problem is, your theory will hardly work in reality. Just go to the field and try to bang 9s and 10s. Then repeat the procedure with 6s and 7s. Whether you look like Brad Pitt or not, whether you are the ultimate leader of the seduction arts or not, the results with 6s and 7s will always be far more consistent.

Yes, there are exceptions. There are 3s that are very difficult to game due to a variety of reasons (looking for long commitment, lack of confidence). There are 9s that will happily bang the next fellow, also for a variet of reasons (special stage in their life, holidays, away from friends/family, drunk, etc).

But 9s and 10s are usually more difficult.

This is the reality. It can be easily explained from an economical perspective: the higher the demand, the higher the prices....

I notice that a lot of men have some seriously limiting beliefs when it comes to this. I suspect this is the problem with your lack of success. If you approach and adequately game 10 girls who are attractive, and 10 girls who are not, you have a higher chance of getting the attractive girl. This is my point, it sounds like you people are not even approaching 9's, and even if you did all of these beliefs you have are probably cockblocking the hell out of you (in terms of the vibe you put off). Of course you will only get laid by 7s if 90% of your approaches are 7s and you are self-cockblocking yourself on the 9s.

[RexImperator]

This thesis would directly contradict most of the posts in my NYC question thread.

[WestIndianArchie]

Reads like every other pua manifesto/game blog post meant to go viral.

What makes it difficult to take is that you leave out the telltale details that come from dealing with so called 10's.

No dude gets every chick, especially with such an incomplete set of principles laid out above. Even George Clooney talks about rubbing bacon all over his clothes so that a girl's dog would be more attracted to him.

WIA

[Mr. Calicoat]

Not to rain on your parade OP but your entire list does not at all add up to what I've experienced so far in actual real-life with hot women.

Your list might sound nice in theory, but I doubt this list is based on anything more than just that; theory. It doesn't add up to real-life experiences, at least not mine.

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 01:05 PM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  

Not to rain on your parade OP but your entire list does not at all add up to what I've experienced so far in actual real-life with hot women.

Your list might sound nice in theory, but I doubt this list is based on anything more than just that; theory. It doesn't add up to real-life experiences, at least not mine.

Has nobody here ever done game before? One day on the streets will teach you that these women are easier to "talk" to. I thought this is something everyone agreed on, I believe even Nick Krauser made a reference to this.

This post is about why they are easier to "get". I worked this out in my newbie daygame girls when a Russian girl mentioned some things post-sex that made me reach these conclusions. Four years of experience later and everything has been backed up time and time again.

I believe the key is in the limiting beliefs. It reminds me of the 4-minute mile and how nobody was able to achieve it for decades because scientists said it was impossible. Then someone achieved it and dozens followed in the same year. I was lucky enough that I reached these conclusions long ago and I never had to deal with that hinderance.

[Frank Mackey]

"I notice that a lot of men have some seriously limiting beliefs when it comes to this. I suspect this is the problem with your lack of success. If you approach and adequately game 10 girls who are attractive, and 10 girls who are not, you have a higher chance of getting the attractive girl. This is my point, it sounds like you people are not even approaching 9's, and even if you did all of these beliefs you have are probably cockblocking the hell out of you (in terms of the vibe you put off). Of course you will only get laid by 7s if 90% of your approaches are 7s and you are self-cockblocking yourself on the 9s."

Steve, I'm an average looking guy and in 2012 when I was single I banged at least three 9s (sort of girls Mcqueen posts here in "what do you think is a 10" thread) and a few 7s and 8s, all from different nationalities, so I really don't have any lack of confidence problems... I do approach them, and sometimes I bang them. I did not bang much 5s or 6s, because I simply was not interested. But the ones I met were very interested in me.

This being said, you're right when you say many guys shy away from getting the trophies. That is completely true. But it was not exactly the main point of your thesis in this thread.

[MrXY]

[Plutoman]

Actually, I'm going to back some of this. I've noticed, and read from other blogs that agree with my experience (Krauser, maybe? Soul? Janka?), that hotter girls are not necessarily more difficult to game into bed. My odds of grabbing the notch of one of the super-hot girls is about the same as the other girls. I find scarcity of them is the main limiting factor; that and the ego they have. Trump the ego, be unfazed by their beauty, and then game them like any other girl. It's not any harder as long as you don't get distracted by their looks.

The factor I have is going from the 10% approach => close rate (I'm just guessing a number for ease of calcs, I don't really keep track because half of my approaches are feeler approaches), if I mack on 120 girls over the year, I'm getting 1-2 hot notches, and 10-11 medium (7-8) notches. Not because the game is harder for the hot girls, but because there were only 10-20 hot girls.

I've never found anything particularly difficult about the hottest girls, except - and a very key except - when I've met them in a club/high end bar. This is the reason to do daygame. When a 9+ is in a bar - she's getting approached left and right by drunk dudes with no game. It doesn't matter how smooth you are; you can't approach her suspected value if you're a normal guy going up to chat with her. Unless you've got the place on lock, got money to toss, suited up and down, older than her (big fault for me), you're already discounted the moment you talk to her just because you're one of 50 dudes to talk to her.

Daygame? Heck yeah. Pretty much everything he's said is true. Hot girls are NEVER approached in the daytime. I've macked on a few and they've made comments to me in particular about that subject; they've told me outright that guys don't do that and they were surprised at my confidence to do that.

I think the distinction should be made of daygame / nightgame, because they are two entirely different environments with hot girls.

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 01:17 PM)Frank Mackey Wrote:  

"I notice that a lot of men have some seriously limiting beliefs when it comes to this. I suspect this is the problem with your lack of success. If you approach and adequately game 10 girls who are attractive, and 10 girls who are not, you have a higher chance of getting the attractive girl. This is my point, it sounds like you people are not even approaching 9's, and even if you did all of these beliefs you have are probably cockblocking the hell out of you (in terms of the vibe you put off). Of course you will only get laid by 7s if 90% of your approaches are 7s and you are self-cockblocking yourself on the 9s."

Steve, I'm an average looking guy and in 2012 when I was single I banged at least three 9s (sort of girls Mcqueen posts here in "what do you think is a 10" thread) and a few 7s and 8s, all from different nationalities, so I really don't have any lack of confidence problems... I do approach them, and sometimes I bang them. I did not bang much 5s or 6s, because I simply was not interested. But the ones I met were very interested in me.

This being said, you're right when you say many guys shy away from getting the trophies. That is completely true. But it was not exactly the main point of your thesis in this thread.

Compare your game on the 9s with your game on the 6s. There are very few men in the world that truly treat both equally. With 9s we are more careful, there is something different about our vibe and the way we present ourselves.

My point is that a specific game on a 9 will yield a higher change of sex than the same game on a 6. The problem is getting to the point where your beliefs and past experience give you a mentality where you are allowed to do this. Very few men have reached this point.

I have noticed even the best players will give out bad game on 9s without even realizing. And then they complain that they are harder.

[Que enspastic]

What next? Running a sub-4 minute mile is easier than running a 4 min+ mile?

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 01:21 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  

Actually, I'm going to back some of this. I've noticed, and read from other blogs that agree with my experience (Krauser, maybe? Soul? Janka?), that hotter girls are not necessarily more difficult to game into bed. My odds of grabbing the notch of one of the super-hot girls is about the same as the other girls. I find scarcity of them is the main limiting factor; that and the ego they have. Trump the ego, be unfazed by their beauty, and then game them like any other girl. It's not any harder as long as you don't get distracted by their looks.

The factor I have is going from the 10% approach => close rate (I'm just guessing a number for ease of calcs, I don't really keep track because half of my approaches are feeler approaches), if I mack on 120 girls over the year, I'm getting 1-2 hot notches, and 10-11 medium (7-8) notches. Not because the game is harder for the hot girls, but because there were only 10-20 hot girls.

I've never found anything particularly difficult about the hottest girls, except - and a very key except - when I've met them in a club/high end bar. This is the reason to do daygame. When a 9+ is in a bar - she's getting approached left and right by drunk dudes with no game. It doesn't matter how smooth you are; you can't approach her suspected value if you're a normal guy going up to chat with her. Unless you've got the place on lock, got money to toss, suited up and down, older than her (big fault for me), you're already discounted the moment you talk to her just because you're one of 50 dudes to talk to her.

Daygame? Heck yeah. Pretty much everything he's said is true. Hot girls are NEVER approached in the daytime. I've macked on a few and they've made comments to me in particular about that subject; they've told me outright that guys don't do that and they were surprised at my confidence to do that.

I think the distinction should be made of daygame / nightgame, because they are two entirely different environments with hot girls.

Yes, I am talking strictly about daygame. I do not do clubs, so I have no experience in that area. But, my numbers show they are easier, not equal difficulty. The problem is being able to have the same game all across the spectrum. I found myself struggling with vibe among very attractive women, and it took me a long time to desensitize.

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 01:22 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

What next? Running a sub-4 minute mile is easier than running a 4 min+ mile?

In the specific case of women, a limiting belief will cockblock you to no end. Vibe is everything in game, and especially on the higher end of the spectrum.

The fact that you believe it is harder is what makes it harder. When your experience is in order, it is actually easier for the reasons I have outlined. The point is these girls have a considerably higher susceptibility to game. If you are unable to show good game in the presence of attractive women then obviously this data is useless to you.

[Plutoman]

It was mentioned over in another thread that it's easier to show your sexual energy with a hotter girl; you can't help but react that way in a more honest sexual manner. Could be the reason. It's a more honest energy; while you also have to maintain an immunity to their beauty and game them normally.

I don't have enough data/experience for actually comparing numbers, so I could not actually say easier/harder. I'd just put them approximately the same for the moment - but it's totally approximate until I'm in the game longer to know.

Definite distinction from day to night - I run almost exclusively daytime game now simply because the quality and ease is so much greater. It's slower, though, at least in my city.

[soup]

OP break down one of these bangs for us.

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 01:28 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  

It was mentioned over in another thread that it's easier to show your sexual energy with a hotter girl; you can't help but react that way in a more honest sexual manner. Could be the reason. It's a more honest energy; while you also have to maintain an immunity to their beauty and game them normally.

I don't have enough data/experience for actually comparing numbers, so I could not actually say easier/harder. I'd just put them approximately the same for the moment - but it's totally approximate until I'm in the game longer to know.

Definite distinction from day to night - I run almost exclusively daytime game now simply because the quality and ease is so much greater. It's slower, though, at least in my city.

Perhaps, but the most important issue is being able to maintain a good vibe with these women. Being placed in front of a 9 you are about to game is terrifying unless you are completely into state, and being able to perform is difficult. It took me many months of desensitizing myself, but after doing so I saw my results with the higher end ascend above the ratios I was seeing with uglier girls.

[scorpion]

Unless you live in a Tier 1 city (for the US that means NYC, LA, Vegas, Miami basically) or maybe a really good college town in the South, you're just not going to even see that many 9s, and certainly not 10s.

So the idea that gaming 9s and 10s is easier than 6s, 7s and 8s is just laughable, simply from a numerical standpoint. It's like saying that getting a job at Google is easier than getting a job at Wal-Mart.

To clarify, for me a 9 is a girl who is hot enough that she can make a living based entirely off her looks, who probably does so in some capacity (i.e. modeling, being sponsored by rich guys, etc...) and who pretty much no man can resist. A 9 is a girl so hot that everyone stares at her when she walks into a room, both male and female, and even children, who can recognize her superior beauty. A 9 is a girl who is hot enough to be actively pursued for sex and relationships by the highest status men on the planet. A 10 is the upper tier of 9s who is basically perfect looking for a short window of her life. So 9s are rare, and 10s are shooting stars. Most "really hot" girls men see in real life and in media are 8s at best.

That being said, I can't take anyone who says that 9s and 10s are easier to game seriously, because it tells me that person has spent very little time actually talking to 9s and 10s (and 6-8s for comparison) and is instead basing his argument entirely on theory. 9s and 10s are simply living in another universe. They are in a separate reality from what men can understand, because we are literally unable to fathom the amount of attention they receive and the way that shapes their thinking and development.

It's not impossible for an experienced player with solid game to pull 9s, but it is basically impossible to lock them down unless your lifestyle and bankroll are commensurate with your game. They simply have too many options, good options, to be satisfied with game alone. Not when they are receiving constant attention from the highest status men they come into contact with every day.

Of course, it's possible that the OP is one of those guys who calls a 7 a 9 and an 8 an 10, in which case his theory would make more sense. Because I do believe that 7s and 8s can be easier to game than 6s if you know what you're doing. That trend just does not hold up when you moved into the rarefied air of the 9 and 10, though. Even rich and famous men cannot reliably hold on to 9s and 10s - these women are the hottest in the world, they know it, and their hypergamy makes them unable to resist the urge to constantly look for an upgrade. They exist in a state of abundance that men simply cannot understand, because there is no male analogue to it.

The closest analogy is probably that of a world famous rock singer or movie star in his prime, who has hot women literally throwing themselves at him on a daily basis, and who has his pick of 9s and 10s to date. Imagine how hard it would be for him to settle down with one woman? Well, that's basically the amount of attention that EVERY 9 receives from the top tier of men. Every time a 9 or 10 walks into a room, she knows that she could pretty much get even the highest status men there to do whatever she wants. This is why pulling 9s and 10s is extremely hard, and keeping them locked down is almost impossible.

[Steve Derekson]

(12-09-2013 01:30 PM)soup Wrote:  

OP break down one of these bangs for us.

The same game principles apply, as long as you are unphased by beauty and completely prepared to walk at any moment. Your belief system must be completely in check, but the beauty of game is that beliefs are molded by success and you get a sort of snowball effect.

Usually I find that attraction is a lot fast the more attractive the girl, a disagreement her and a challenge there mixed with a couple of passed shit-tests and it is done. With 6s and 7s you often have to battle through 5 minutes of stony-faced banter until they finally start investing. Also qualification.

In daygame the vibe is usually one of huge confidence at first, but not cockiness (where I live at least), playful banter that establishes you as the higher value in the interaction followed by investment from her. After a bit of investment I qualify and make her think she has earned my approval. I talk about the stereotype that attractive women are stupid, how most girls are boring and it's good she can at least hold a conversation. All of that with a bit of vulnerability game and the usual connection techniques. I also add particular things to reduce flakes because of the collectivism in Mediterranean countries (something Roosh talked about in Argentina), but I don't think you would have to implement this in the US.

If she is a model (most hot girls are not), then you MIGHT get some princess behaviour. Laying down the law is an easy way to deal with it, if you feel you are getting TOO much LMR, just tell her to leave and she will probably call back and apologize.