[WestIndianArchie]

@Rat

You're taking the wrong approach. The whole board is.

You should always be one step out the door. It's when you start to play defense that you lose. All you guys are overstating the value of a both a hot chick and a naive one. If you can pull one, you can pull another. You're not lucking into shit.

It's this business and investment mentality into what is a plentiful overall resource, with each individual product losing value by the second. Building a special fridge for some raspberries. It's insanity.

Cats on that purple pill.

A woman well past her prime still has more sexual options than most men. And she can offer easy sex or good sex and manipulate any takers. She is going to meet people.

That is the feminine strategy, period.
She's looking for an alpha to give her good genes, a beta to support her and do her bidding.

And given the chance, if you just play house with her or marry, your constant presence will breed familiarity and then contempt. She is going to grind you down. Whether or not she keeps her respect or loses it is ENTIRELY up to her. Where your DHV's impress some new chick, your bitch is bored with it.

So the game is never to pick some virgin and close her off to the world, but remaining attractive to all women as long as possible.

All of these elaborate theories suggest to me that few of you have been in long term committed relationships.

Even if she stays thin, she's objectively getting older, and subjectively you will tire of her face. The more sex you have the less interested you're going to be with her in the long run. Other things about your chick and the relationship that you create will take over. But if you have kids, that girl you dated is on an extended vacation, and her nagging twin sister will show up.

And if were talking assets, you really think you're going to be cool with your own flesh and blood doing with less? Hate a chick so much you'll let your children starve?

None of this is game. Scarcity mentality dressed up as prudence.

WIA

[Onto]

I hear what you're saying WIA, but I think you have to do both. Control the environment as best you can combined with keeping and enhancing your value.

[Menace]

Quote:

All of these elaborate theories suggest to me that few of you have been in long term committed relationships.

This. Control her...or what will happen? What is this Sword of Damocles hanging over your head that you have to keep constant vigilance? It's like saying you have to be really careful driving or your tire tread will wear out. Yeah, and? Get new tires.

I think the issue is that we have men here with different mindsets and levels of experience, so what to one seems an enormous continuous labor, to another is really rather simple. You need to become the man that is so obviously better than her other options AND most other women's options (and there is a lot wrapped up in this concept), that she will simply not consider others absent some really unforeseen event. This does not mean you need to be a millionaire, or extremely good looking, or any of this other stuff.

Realize that you cannot control a woman. Give up on this notion, it is poisonous. You have control of yourself. Even your children you have limited control over, and less and less over time. You become great through actions and time.

[Onto]

(12-29-2015 06:48 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Quote:

All of these elaborate theories suggest to me that few of you have been in long term committed relationships.

This. Control her...or what will happen? What is this Sword of Damocles hanging over your head that you have to keep constant vigilance? It's like saying you have to be really careful driving or your tire tread will wear out. Yeah, and? Get new tires.

I think the issue is that we have men here with different mindsets and levels of experience, so what to one seems an enormous continuous labor, to another is really rather simple. You need to become the man that is so obviously better than her other options AND most other women's options (and there is a lot wrapped up in this concept), that she will simply not consider others absent some really unforeseen event. This does not mean you need to be a millionaire, or extremely good looking, or any of this other stuff.

Realize that you cannot control a woman. Give up on this notion, it is poisonous. You have control of yourself. Even your children you have limited control over, and less and less over time. You become great through actions and time.

When you are driving you do have to be really careful. It can be a fatal endeavor otherwise. Not only with the path, terrain, and weather you decided to journey in, but also unforeseen external forces like others cars. It's when people are too comfortable, even nodding off at the wheel, when many accidents happen.

I've been in a lot of LTR's for the past 30 years, lived with several women, and been engaged twice. Both of who proposed to me. Though I've never been married, I've been around the block enough and I've seen the marriages develop of my good friends as well.

I've also raised a child, and you can control them remarkably well if you decide to be a strong and firm Father instead of a buddy. I look at the children in this country and I can understand one might think they are hard to control. Much of American culture touts we shouldn't be so strict and instead be their "friends" and give them room to find themselves. Same with women really. But go to Mexico and see how the children there behave out in public. It's like night and day.

You and WIA make good points about being the best man you can be. I admit I can become too comfortable in relationships and get out of shape physically. However I don't think that's the overall answer to it.

You can do all you can to be the best possible version of yourself, but it won't be enough to stop aspects of human nature such as desire, emptiness, temptation, along with all the current cultural programming of the times.

If you and your wife are standing in front of a 1000 ft wave of feminine temptation are you just going to expect, "My game will save us". Having good "game" (aka wisdom) is seeing and knowing how to avoid the threatening waves to begin with.

[Vice]

(12-29-2015 06:48 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Realize that you cannot control a woman.

Sure you can't have absolute control over a woman but you can exert significant influence over them and their environment.

Quote:

Give up on this notion, it is poisonous.

Why is it poisonous? Who deemed it so?

[PhDre]

(12-29-2015 06:48 PM)Menace Wrote:  

This. Control her...or what will happen? What is this Sword of Damocles hanging over your head that you have to keep constant vigilance? It's like saying you have to be really careful driving or your tire tread will wear out. Yeah, and? Get new tires.

I think the issue is that we have men here with different mindsets and levels of experience, so what to one seems an enormous continuous labor, to another is really rather simple. You need to become the man that is so obviously better than her other options AND most other women's options (and there is a lot wrapped up in this concept), that she will simply not consider others absent some really unforeseen event. This does not mean you need to be a millionaire, or extremely good looking, or any of this other stuff.

Realize that you cannot control a woman. Give up on this notion, it is poisonous. You have control of yourself. Even your children you have limited control over, and less and less over time. You become great through actions and time.

(For perspective: I'm end of my 20's, in my third LTR, never lived together, so I'm obviously less experienced than you guys.)

I fully support your message about self improvement, however I think it is only one side of the coin.

If you go to any Western country, you will notice that in shape, well-dressed and game-aware men outnumber young thin attractive women.
Self-improvement will only take you so far. Building muscle, dressing well, learning game and earning six figures can and probably will take you to the top 10%, but no amount of effort will take you to the top 0.1%.
If the current trend continues, in the future attractive women will only fuck celebrities, billionaires and winners of the genetic lottery.

Somewhere along the line men stopped demanding women to be actually attractive. And the solution is not more and more self-improvement, but rather forcing our women to become attractive and pleasant again.

Since we cannot take their Starbucks and cupcakes away, or put a gun to their head and force them to lose weight and behave more feminine, we need to use other ways.
For me this way is by molding my girlfriend, by demanding that she stays thin and feminine, and by punishing her for bad behavior. And if this relation ends, I will do the same in the next one.

You call this control out of scarcity mentality.
However, if I'm a top 10% guy and only 2% of girls give me a boner and even less are suitable as mother for my children, then there is actual scarcity.

Edit: Before you tell me that I should move abroad to find more attractive and feminine women - I don't want to choose between living in a third world shithole or living in the first world without any attractive girls around.

[Gmac]

(12-30-2015 08:15 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

If the current trend continues, in the future attractive women will only fuck celebrities, billionaires and winners of the genetic lottery.

Somewhere along the line men stopped demanding women to be actually attractive. And the solution is not more and more self-improvement, but rather forcing our women to become attractive and pleasant again.

Ok now that's more than just a stretch... let's be realistic.

Sometimes it's important to step back and remember that we live in a very small bubble here in the RVF but the world really is not as doom and gloom as so many of the threads and posts here would have you believe. When you get to a point where you really think the world is as bad as you've just described, that's an indicator you need to get off the internet and go outside. My 2c.

[Beyond Borders]

(12-30-2015 08:15 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

If you go to any Western country, you will notice that in shape, well-dressed and game-aware men outnumber young thin attractive women.

I don't know that this is true - doubt it. But even if is, so what? You can still get young thin attractive women in the states even when you're not in-shape or killing it financially. Worry about yourself and forget the competition. There's nothing you can do about what someone else has.

Honestly, once the relationship is in motion, it's much more about emotions and psychology than it is being the best guy "on paper."

And "any" Western country? Come on...some of you guys try to paint such a bleak picture.

There are problems in the Western world, no doubt. But it's far from so bad as this.

Quote:

Self-improvement will only take you so far. Building muscle, dressing well, learning game and earning six figures can and probably will take you to the top 10%, but no amount of effort will take you to the top 0.1%.

Why do you need to be in the top 0.1%? Assuming those things can get you to the top 10%, what in the world is wrong with the top 10%? If that's an honest assessment of your intention, you may be setting the standard for life satisfaction a tad high...I don't predict that life demand bringing you happiness in the long run.

Quote:

If the current trend continues, in the future attractive women will only fuck celebrities, billionaires and winners of the genetic lottery.

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling..."

Quote:

Somewhere along the line men stopped demanding women to be actually attractive. And the solution is not more and more self-improvement, but rather forcing our women to become attractive and pleasant again.

There's some truth to guys letting standards slip. But there are so many ridiculously hot women and even just good enough women in the West still. There are most definitely some ugly women and plenty of hogs, but there are plenty of women who take care of their looks or are just naturally gorgeous and slim too.

You're really harboring some skewed paradigms here.

Quote:

You call this control out of scarcity mentality.
However, if I'm a top 10% guy and only 2% of girls give me a boner and even less are suitable as mother for my children, then there is actual scarcity.

Only 2% of women in the West give you wood? I call bullshit or you drastically need to get your testosterone checked.

And if you were truly in the top 10% I doubt you'd be sounding this frustrated. I'd be willing to be the guys in the top 10% in the West, whatever that even means, see a completely different world than the one you're describing.

Quote:

Edit: Before you tell me that I should move abroad to find more attractive and feminine women

You don't. There are hoards of them in the states. You may have to be more selective to find a good one, but there are so many pitfalls of dating in a foreign country, especially a 3rd world country, I honestly think it all balances out as far as ltr prospecting goes. You can't just show up and pick one and expect it to work out well.

And there are still plenty of feminine women in the West.

Quote:

- I don't want to choose between living in a third world shithole or living in the first world without any attractive girls around.

First off, false dichotomy.

So you're telling me there are only two choices? Third world shithole or first world country no attractive girls? There are no first world countries with good-looking women? There is no "abroad" without 3rd world shithole? There are no in-between choices?

On top of that, these "3rd world shitholes" you speak of can be great places to live - you're just stereotyping them.

But again, if you can't stomach those types of places, there's no need to move out of the first world just for women.

I wouldn't move abroad just for women, and there are plenty right where you are.

Let's keep things in a realistic perspective here.

[Kaii]

(12-29-2015 03:53 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

This is all true and good, but the annoying thing about women is they will ALWAYS revert to bad behavior and testing you, for the ENTIRE relationship.

Its just their nature. So like little kids, you have to always remain vigilant and enforce the boundaries and minimum acceptable level of behavior.

Like parenting, it's easy to just get worn down, tired of being the police and the effort to keep the law and order, and that's when the LTR goes down the drain. She senses that you are no longer in the control she craves.

Never being able to relax in an LTR is a bit of a downer.

and that is what annoys me greatly about women. I don't want or have any kids, why the fuck would I want to babysit a grown woman? But, I do want to get up in that, so I deal with it I guess.

It does get old though.

[PhDre]

BB, thank you for your elaborate answer.

You are absolutely right that I was painting a massive hyperbole, I was definitely in a gloomy mood.
However I still stand behind my point that more and more self improvement is not the only answer if men continue to lower their standards.

I am not frustrated because I don't get laid, I am frustrated because I see girls on average decline in terms of looks and femininity. It is true that there are still plenty of pretty girls and some real stunners.
However when I was in high school (which is only 10-15 years ago) nearly all girls were skinny. Nowadays even a large percentage of 16 year olds have muffin tops.

As for the 10%, 2% etc numbers, of course they were pulled out of my ass.
But where I live (North Western Europe) slightly chubby is definitely the new skinny and these girls simply don't do it for me.
(You were btw spot on with the test issue, but even when everything was ok a lfew extra kg's completely killed my boner.)

[Menace]

(12-30-2015 06:28 AM)Vice Wrote:  

(12-29-2015 06:48 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Realize that you cannot control a woman.

Sure you can't have absolute control over a woman but you can exert significant influence over them and their environment.

Quote:

Give up on this notion, it is poisonous.

Why is it poisonous? Who deemed it so?

Maybe it's semantics and mindset then. Of course you can influence women, and you should. But if mentally you're thinking I have to control them, by which I mean manage their life from a position of fear and self-doubt, then no, you can't do that long term. And THAT mindset is poisonous in my opinion. It's just my opinion, not an absolute truth.

[Menace]

(12-29-2015 07:25 PM)Onto Wrote:  

You can do all you can to be the best possible version of yourself, but it won't be enough to stop aspects of human nature such as desire, emptiness, temptation, along with all the current cultural programming of the times.

If you and your wife are standing in front of a 1000 ft wave of feminine temptation are you just going to expect, "My game will save us". Having good "game" (aka wisdom) is seeing and knowing how to avoid the threatening waves to begin with.

Yeah, there is nothing you can do about it. I guess that's one of my points. You can have everything down in life and self and STILL the woman will stray in some way.

We all must make our best efforts to aggressively screen for suitable women, but even then, such a woman can cheat on you or do some other scandalous shit. It can't be helped.

[Beyond Borders]

(12-30-2015 10:38 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

BB, thank you for your elaborate answer.

You are absolutely right that I was painting a massive hyperbole, I was definitely in a gloomy mood.
However I still stand behind my point that more and more self improvement is not the only answer if men continue to lower their standards.

I am not frustrated because I don't get laid, I am frustrated because I see girls on average decline in terms of looks and femininity. It is true that there are still plenty of pretty girls and some real stunners.
However when I was in high school (which is only 10-15 years ago) nearly all girls were skinny. Nowadays even a large percentage of 16 year olds have muffin tops.

As for the 10%, 2% etc numbers, of course they were pulled out of my ass.
But where I live (North Western Europe) slightly chubby is definitely the new skinny and these girls simply don't do it for me.
(You were btw spot on with the test issue, but even when everything was ok a lfew extra kg's completely killed my boner.)

Well, at least you can admit you were laying it on a little thick. I respect that.

Anyways, I'm going with Gmac that it might be good to pull away from the online negativity a bit. It's easy to get caught up in this stuff sometimes and let it put you in a bad mood. We've all been there.

Get yourself out in a positive environment and have a little fun. Spend some time just bullshitting with people and challenging your assumptions. Or figure out where all the slim girls are hanging out and go there.

I find even just meeting a random guy in a bar and shooting the breeze with him (who is not associated with this community) can be centering sometimes. There's a lot of good to be found here but your vision can get a little skewed sometimes too.

Or just go play around and flirt with, maybe have sex, with a girl that is below your "standard" - enjoy her for what she is, even if she's essentially a harlot, and leave it at that. Being simple doesn't necessarily make her evil, and life is short.

Here's one thing that strikes me about all the "negative press" we give women sometimes.

Is the average guy you meet in any run of the mill club worth hanging around? Does the average guy you meet have much going for him or is he just coasting through life? Can the average guy be trusted fully and completely?

I think we all know the answer to that question...

So if most of the population leans to the shallow side and doesn't seem worth your time for authentic long-term engagement or brotherly loyalty, you can't really expect the half that happens to be females to be any different. I mean, guys on this very forum complain about how hard it is to meet male friends but can't seem to draw that connection.

Holding that in mind may help keep it in perspective when it seems hard to meet someone who checks all the boxes for you and you start getting bitter about modern women. I try to appreciate most people when I can, but truly quality folks, male or female, are generally a somewhat rare breed (though you can still find them most everywhere).

To be honest, I doubt there was a time in history when this wasn't the case.

It's okay to have high standards for people you most closely associate with, but if you don't expect the rest to be perfect in the meanwhile you won't be so disappointed when they're not.

[PhDre]

(12-30-2015 11:07 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Well, at least you can admit you were laying it on a little thick. I respect that.

Fair Enough. There are a lot of great posts on this forum. If I post in a bad mood and make such an extreme exageration that it completely clouds my message, it is only natural that I admit this.

(12-30-2015 11:07 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Anyways, I'm going with Gmac that it might be good to pull away from the online negativity a bit. It's easy to get caught up in this stuff sometimes and let it put you in a bad mood. We've all been there.

Get yourself out in a positive environment and have a little fun. Spend some time just bullshitting with people and challenging your assumptions. Or figure out where all the slim girls are hanging out and go there.

I find even just meeting a random guy in a bar and shooting the breeze with him (who is not associated with this community) can be centering sometimes. There's a lot of good to be found here but your vision can get a little skewed sometimes too.

Or just go play around and flirt with, maybe have sex, with a girl that is below your "standard" - enjoy her for what she is, even if she's essentially a harlot, and leave it at that. Being simple doesn't necessarily make her evil, and life is short.

Don't worry. I'm a fairly positive and happy guy. It is just a couple of bad night's sleep, together with some serious work stress that triggered the mood.
I actually have a girlfriend who ticks all my boxes for the moment and I've got some good, funny friends.

(12-30-2015 11:07 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Here's one thing that strikes me about all the "negative press" we give women sometimes.

Is the average guy you meet in any run of the mill club worth hanging around? Does the average guy you meet have much going for him or is he just coasting through life? Can the average guy be trusted fully and completely?

I think we all know the answer to that question...

So if most of the population leans to the shallow side and doesn't seem worth your time for authentic long-term engagement or brotherly loyalty, you can't really expect the half that happens to be females to be any different. I mean, guys on this very forum complain about how hard it is to meet male friends but can't seem to draw that connection.

Holding that in mind may help keep it in perspective when it seems hard to meet someone who checks all the boxes for you and you start getting bitter about modern women. I try to appreciate most people when I can, but truly quality folks, male or female, are generally a somewhat rare breed (though you can still find them most everywhere).

To be honest, I doubt there was a time in history when this wasn't the case.

It's okay to have high standards for people you most closely associate with, but if you don't expect the rest to be perfect in the meanwhile you won't be so disappointed when they're not.

So true.

[262]

If we're being realistic here, while it isn't yet impossible for the average Western guy to be successful in the West, we'd be doing him a disservice by saying the average EE/SEA/LatAm girl isn't better than her average Western counterpart. You still need Game, obviously.

Also, I'm not sure why some guys keep saying there are hoards of feminine women in the West. Forum anecdotes suggest that is also hyperbole, relative to EE/SEA/LatAm.

[Beyond Borders]

(12-31-2015 06:30 AM)262 Wrote:  

Also, I'm not sure why some guys keep saying there are hoards of feminine women in the West. Forum anecdotes suggest that is also hyperbole, relative to EE/SEA/LatAm.

You're taking "hordes" out of the context of the conversation in which it was used - relativity is something else entirely. I was essentially just saying there are still plenty there and that it's not as bad as the picture painted; not that there are more or the same as in places like SEA, or that they are coming out of the woodwork. Of course not.

But the poster I was responding to was already making it clear he didn't want to live abroad and especially places like SEA. So my response was there are still plenty of feminine women in the West (there are), and that it's not worth moving abroad for that reason alone. I love living overseas, but I really don't think that should be your reason unless you really have nothing else going.

I mean, I can see the wisdom of marrying a foreign woman (I likely will), but not if you're a man who doesn't already love living abroad.

More importantly to me (though perhaps besides the point based on the above), the forum doesn't make my observations for me.

So, feel free to disagree with my statements about Western women, as I know many here will, but you won't persuade me of anything by throwing the "opinion of the group" or a collection of anecdotes at me.

I may have a lot in common with the men here, but I still think for myself.

[262]

Isn't Game itself a set of hypotheses, based on collections of in-field anecdotes, and tested by other guys?

Obviously, some aspects of Game are debated, and part of it is an art rather than a science, but there are some core hypotheses backed by many in-field anecdotes (ie "don't be needy.")

So, if in-field anecdotes are the basis of Game, why shouldn't they be the basis of "Western versus EE/SEA/LatAm women?"

All that said, I mean no offense - after all, you acknowledge that your opinion is the minority one on this forum.