[Tex Pro]

I knew the idea of a guaranteed minimum income would eventually gain steam, and it seems that the Swiss are going to vote on whether to implement a guaranteed income:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/0...O620131004

Quote:

(Reuters) - Switzerland will hold a vote on whether to introduce a basic income for all adults, in a further sign of growing public activism over pay inequality since the financial crisis.

A grassroots committee is calling for all adults in Switzerland to receive an unconditional income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2,800) per month from the state, with the aim of providing a financial safety net for the population.

Organizers submitted more than the 100,000 signatures needed to call a referendum on Friday and tipped a truckload of 8 million five-rappen coins outside the parliament building in Berne, one for each person living in Switzerland.

Under Swiss law, citizens can organize popular initiatives that allow the channeling of public anger into direct political action. The country usually holds several referenda a year.

In March, Swiss voters backed some of the world's strictest controls on executive pay, forcing public companies to give shareholders a binding vote on compensation.

A separate proposal to limit monthly executive pay to no more than what the company's lowest-paid staff earn in a year, the so-called 1:12 initiative, faces a popular vote on November 24.

The initiative's organizing committee said the basic income could partly be financed through money from social insurance systems in Switzerland.

The timing of the vote has yet to be announced, pending official guidance from the government.

[Dr. Howard]

holy crap. "unconditional income" That is an interesting road to go down.

[w00t]

If that goes through Ill apply for citizenship!
Since Switzerland has a real democracy (you know, where the people actually have a say in what should go down) this could really happen.

[teh_skeeze]

I believe that every adult should be allowed a stipend for food and shelter (food stamps and section 8 in the US). In order to receive it, you must do a certain amount of community service. You can opt out of the community service by paying into the system. I find it absurd that as the "richest" country in the world we have homeless and food insecure people. We'll give resources to people half way around the world, but look at similar people in our own country with disdain.

[void]

They will have to implement hard immigration barriers, if they implement it.

[Teedub]

(10-05-2013 10:04 AM)void Wrote:  

They will have to implement hard immigration barriers, if they implement it.

They're not in the EU, and are quite a 'racist' country - There isn't much chance of a Scandinavia/UK situation happening there.

[Cattle Rustler]

Time to start looking for a Swiss lizzard.

Switzerland has the money to do it, it's citizen population is small and most are successful. Financial services helps bring a lot money and there are not many permanent immigrants.

[Parlay44]

It's not just about a high minimum wage. It's your income vs the cost of goods and services ...the cost of living.

I agree about locking down the borders. There's always a group that lives below the poverty line that hoards their money or sends it out of the country to support their family instead of reinvesting it into the local economy.

If you want to raise the standard of living just keep money coming into the country and keep it from going out.

[Pacesetter20]

(10-05-2013 09:55 AM)teh_skeeze Wrote:  

I believe that every adult should be allowed a stipend for food and shelter (food stamps and section 8 in the US). In order to receive it, you must do a certain amount of community service. You can opt out of the community service by paying into the system. I find it absurd that as the "richest" country in the world we have homeless and food insecure people. We'll give resources to people half way around the world, but look at similar people in our own country with disdain.

And how on Earth would we pay for that?

245,000,000 x $2500 x 12 ~ 7.4 Trillion per year.

[MHaes]

Quote:

A grassroots committee is calling for all adults in Switzerland to receive an unconditional income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2,800) per month from the state, with the aim of providing a financial safety net for the population.

Wow, it will be interesting to see the effects of this if it is passed.

I just looked it up - Switzerland has a median household income of ~$135k USD. After the government takes its cut, there is ~$95k USD left over. Not a bad deal.

To put things in perspective, the median income before taxes in the US is about ~$48k.

[Parlay44]

I like the idea of community service. Make it open to the public with a basic salary. Whoever shows up that day gets work.

My friend had to do court ordered community service twice. Once he separated garbage at a recycling plant. Second time he rocked the orange jump suit and picked up garbage on the side of the highway.

There's obviously a need for labor in these places. Why not open it up to the public?

[Basil Ransom]

Something like this was advocated by the libertarian economist Milton Friedman. The idea behind it is that the government has all kinds of welfare programs that distort markets, and that they'd be better off replaced by a guaranteed income, where if you make below $X, the government pays you the difference. The government as it is spends something like ten or twenty grand per person per year on welfare payments.

Instead of all these social services, just write them checks. Bye bye medicare, medicaid, social security, disability payments, food stamps, section 8 and even public schooling. You could make a strong argument for employing these people in jobs that are socially valuable but typically low or non paying. Though people who don't want to work will be a great hindrance in the workplace.

Though one great danger I suppose is the electorate voting themselves more and more money at the expense of the rich. You might have to limit voting rights to net taxpayers.

[amity]

(10-05-2013 10:07 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 10:04 AM)void Wrote:  

They will have to implement hard immigration barriers, if they implement it.

They're not in the EU, and are quite a 'racist' country - There isn't much chance of a Scandinavia/UK situation happening there.

Teedub, that is some horse manure bro, seriously
Don't tell me you fell for that Oprah bullshit in the MSM in UK/US/Germany, talk about making a mountain out a molehill
The Swiss are possibly the least racist people I've come across, they're exceptionally honest and open minded
They just don't tolerate people messing with them or their society
They have a law of sorts whereby if you emigrate to Switz and you get involved in crime, if you get caught you get two chances, second chance and you're deported, and you ain't ever coming back
I say fair fucks to the Swiss, they have an open attitude to immigrants, so long as they don't fuck with them
Proper order, more countries should adopt that fair but no-nonsense attitude of the Swiss

[teh_skeeze]

(10-05-2013 10:38 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

And how on Earth would we pay for that?

245,000,000 x $2500 x 12 ~ 7.4 Trillion per year.

We seem to have no issues subsidizing bombs being dropped on 3rd world brown children...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing oil companies while they post record profits while trying to pass the buck for their environmental disasters...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing a for profit prison system full of non violent drug offenders...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing an apartheid state...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing farmers for not growing crops...

You also seem to have missed the part where I said people could opt out by paying into the system. Also your numbers are very misleading (inflated). You claim that 78% of the population would be subsidized when in reality it would probably be 25% at most. Also, the stipend would only cover food and basic housing which would be $1,500/mo on the high end. Most people on section 8 and food stamps get around $1,000/mo. I understand that you love your masters because you somehow think that you will become one of them someday. The fact of the matter is not everyone can make it to the top of the mountain. All I'm suggesting is that everybody should be eligible for the same benefits that the laziest in our society take advantage of, and that they should work for it by performing community service.

[NY Digital]

You don't starve in America. There are soup kitchens practically everywhere.

Anyways...

It's so easy to send money to someone these days, considering there are virtual currencies like Bitcoin.

I don't agree with this but we'll see what happens.

[Pacesetter20]

(10-05-2013 11:07 AM)teh_skeeze Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 10:38 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

And how on Earth would we pay for that?

245,000,000 x $2500 x 12 ~ 7.4 Trillion per year.

We seem to have no issues subsidizing bombs being dropped on 3rd world brown children...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing oil companies while they post record profits while trying to pass the buck for their environmental disasters...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing a for profit prison system full of non violent drug offenders...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing an apartheid state...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing farmers for not growing crops...

Actually, I have issues with most of these, but didn't bring them up because they had no relevance to the topic at hand, but thanks for trying to distract.

Quote:

You also seem to have missed the part where I said people could opt out by paying into the system. Also your numbers are very misleading (inflated). You claim that 78% of the population would be subsidized when in reality it would probably be 25% at most. Also, the stipend would only cover food and basic housing which would be $1,500/mo on the high end. Most people on section 8 and food stamps get around $1,000/mo. I understand that you love your masters because you somehow think that you will become one of them someday. The fact of the matter is not everyone can make it to the top of the mountain. All I'm suggesting is that everybody should be eligible for the same benefits that the laziest in our society take advantage of, and that they should work for it by performing community service.

Why would you opt out, when you can get a free $1500/mo for picking up some trash a couple times a week?

Anyway, even using your math, that is 1.1 Trillion per year, how are you paying for this?

I actually am somewhat down for the scenario that brasilransom laid out, but this is not what you are saying.

What have you done to help all these less fortunate people (besides advocating for further spending of taxpayer money that we don't have)?

[teh_skeeze]

It's not a distraction. If you take move money from one place, you can put it elsewhere. The other part of my plan is it puts people of different classes together and gives them a sense of civic duty. It is certainly possible that someone on the bottom ends up getting a job that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten because someone finally sees them as a human being instead of some drain on society. I'm not saying my plan is perfect and I obviously haven't hashed out all the details. I'm not paid to do so and I know my plan would never happen because the powers that be would have to show some altruism.

I have been one of those less fortunate people and in a way I still am. When I see someone in need I help out as best I can.

[Samseau]

(10-05-2013 11:07 AM)teh_skeeze Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 10:38 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

And how on Earth would we pay for that?

245,000,000 x $2500 x 12 ~ 7.4 Trillion per year.

We seem to have no issues subsidizing bombs being dropped on 3rd world brown children...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing oil companies while they post record profits while trying to pass the buck for their environmental disasters...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing a for profit prison system full of non violent drug offenders...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing an apartheid state...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing farmers for not growing crops...

You also seem to have missed the part where I said people could opt out by paying into the system. Also your numbers are very misleading (inflated). You claim that 78% of the population would be subsidized when in reality it would probably be 25% at most. Also, the stipend would only cover food and basic housing which would be $1,500/mo on the high end. Most people on section 8 and food stamps get around $1,000/mo. I understand that you love your masters because you somehow think that you will become one of them someday. The fact of the matter is not everyone can make it to the top of the mountain. All I'm suggesting is that everybody should be eligible for the same benefits that the laziest in our society take advantage of, and that they should work for it by performing community service.

Fuck community service for women. How about they hit the gym and they get a check?

[teh_skeeze]

I'll one up you and add charm school classes on top of gym membership. Having thin, pleasant women is a community service.

[kosko]

(10-05-2013 10:04 AM)void Wrote:  

They will have to implement hard immigration barriers, if they implement it.

Its already one of the hardest nations to get citizenship in. The Swiss have had borders on lockdown for decades now.

(10-05-2013 10:38 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 09:55 AM)teh_skeeze Wrote:  

I believe that every adult should be allowed a stipend for food and shelter (food stamps and section 8 in the US). In order to receive it, you must do a certain amount of community service. You can opt out of the community service by paying into the system. I find it absurd that as the "richest" country in the world we have homeless and food insecure people. We'll give resources to people half way around the world, but look at similar people in our own country with disdain.

And how on Earth would we pay for that?

245,000,000 x $2500 x 12 ~ 7.4 Trillion per year.

The Size of the Bank Bailout: $29 Trillion

Its not that hard to come up with that cash. Plus with a requirement you have to put work back into the system it pays for its self.

You provide a foundation for your people, they will build something.

Life gets boring if you just get a roof and fed, all those losers whom like to watch TV all day and do shit all would still have to work to do all that versus getting enough cash from the Govt to cover all that stuff now.

(10-05-2013 02:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 11:07 AM)teh_skeeze Wrote:  

(10-05-2013 10:38 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

And how on Earth would we pay for that?

245,000,000 x $2500 x 12 ~ 7.4 Trillion per year.

We seem to have no issues subsidizing bombs being dropped on 3rd world brown children...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing oil companies while they post record profits while trying to pass the buck for their environmental disasters...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing a for profit prison system full of non violent drug offenders...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing an apartheid state...
We seem to have no issues subsidizing farmers for not growing crops...

You also seem to have missed the part where I said people could opt out by paying into the system. Also your numbers are very misleading (inflated). You claim that 78% of the population would be subsidized when in reality it would probably be 25% at most. Also, the stipend would only cover food and basic housing which would be $1,500/mo on the high end. Most people on section 8 and food stamps get around $1,000/mo. I understand that you love your masters because you somehow think that you will become one of them someday. The fact of the matter is not everyone can make it to the top of the mountain. All I'm suggesting is that everybody should be eligible for the same benefits that the laziest in our society take advantage of, and that they should work for it by performing community service.

Fuck community service for women. How about they hit the gym and they get a check?

Yes. Let women fund their own shit. If they want to control reproductive elements they harp about let them fund the complex of it all and pay those bills.

"Women's reproductive clinic" = Plan B and abortion factory where women go to fix mistakes they made when they were drunk.

"Women's Shelter" = Hotel for women whom can't stop living in the fast lane

"Women's Jail" = Month-spa for women with anger issues, soft as hell compared to a men's jail

"Women' Centres" = Feminist learning centres

"Women's Gym" = ... Empty

[kosko]

...

[NY Digital]

$29 trillion?



Good joke. Notice it's from a liberal outlet, as well.

[Cattle Rustler]

(10-05-2013 10:52 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

I like the idea of community service. Make it open to the public with a basic salary. Whoever shows up that day gets work.

My friend had to do court ordered community service twice. Once he separated garbage at a recycling plant. Second time he rocked the orange jump suit and picked up garbage on the side of the highway.

There's obviously a need for labor in these places. Why not open it up to the public?

Prisoners work for cheap, but the bastards tried to escape so they can't do it anymore. Most states don't "have money" to clean their highways. My friend used to it on 100+ weather for 7.25/hr a while back

[kosko]

(10-05-2013 02:38 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  

$29 trillion?



Good joke. Notice it's from a liberal outlet, as well.

http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2011/...ll-street/

[amity]

@Kosko Switzerland has a high percentage of non-native inhabitants, more than most European countries, so I don't see how that equates to having the borders on lockdown
Loads of Italians, Spaniards and South Americans came in over the last few decades, and from what I can see, and from talking to Swiss people I know, many of them are naturalised citizens now and have been for some time
They've also had a lot of Turks and people from the ex-Yugoslavian states moving in in the last twenty years, and here's where you might be right Kosko, I think the Swiss have been a bit slower to grant these guys citizenship, but with good reason, I feel
Certainly some of them are coming to work hard and make their way and that's great, but I see others coming to CH for one reason only, to avail of the very generous social handouts, and sit on their arses doing SFA
And then there's the Roma gypsies, last couple of years a lot of them have come in, and I'm sorry if I rub anyone up the wrong way here, but from what I've seen in CH in recent years(and also in Ireland), these guys are involved in so much petty crime in CH, it's ridiculous
Of course there's honest people amongst their ranks too, but if I was working in the Swiss immigration Dept, these guys would be at the bottom of my list, when it comes to gaining citizenship