[Nemencine]

I create this thread for two purposes:
(a) any e-commerce idea that can make money from the implementation of Obamacare?
(b)Any stock market trading ideas...long/short...that can potentially make money from obamacare implementation?

OBAMACARE will be implemented starting from tomorrow: OCT 1st, 2013.

USA has around 300 million people living in it. That is a huuuuugge market....with mandatory healthcare....there is a shitload of money to be made. Some people are going to make it. The same way some people made money during the tech bubble...The way some people made money during the housing bubble.... the way some people made a boatload of cash with social media. It is inevitable. What business can a person brainstorm to exploit loopholes and hiccups in the obamacare?

In the united states of america, obamacare goes live on October 1st, 2013. What business, e-commerce or brick-and-mortar, was created by entrepreneuring individuals, to make money off the implementation of universal healthcare in countries like UK, germany, etc....how can one translate that into USA?

How do i profit in the stock market from this event? Are there historical parallels to other countries? what stocks/sector outperformed following the implementation of the universal healthcare in other countries like britain, france, germany, canada, scandinavia, etc? what stocks/sector went downhill?

In terms of stocks, i believe i might be probably late to the party(i hope not!)...i should have been getting ready and positioning myself months ago, with stocks like THC, HCA, CYH, VHS, HMA, LPNT, UNH, WLP...etc... http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/524.html

What stocks should i look forward to going long that will benefit from obamacare and why?

what stocks should i look to short selling due to obamacare and why?

any ideas?

Does anybody know of any definitive site i can read on obamacare that details, in OBJECTIVE MANNER(without political bullshite), with historical parallels, the effect of such a universal healthcare implementations and potential hiccups on the way.

Because the reality is that in the next 12 months or so, as Obamacare gets implemented starting from october 1st, 2013; some 20something smart motherfuckers will come up with various ecommerce ideas that will make money off certain aspect of the obamacare. And these 20somethings are going to be rich from this ecommerce ideas while stupid conservatives and their idiotic liberal cousins fight each other over "government taken over". THAT IS JUST THE HARSH REALITY.

I just want mine. that is all. Dont blame the players, blame the game. Hey, life is a hustle, what are you going to do? Any ideas?

regards,

--Nemencine

[Alpharius]

It may just be a correlation, but Netflix had a pretty decent jump yesterday. People need to pass the time somehow...

[Akula]

Does anyone know if you need to sign up for this if you're living abroad as a US citizen? When I went to healthcare.gov it asked me immediately what state I live in and that is the only way to get the process going.

I assume living abroad means we're exempt from having to purchase healthcare insurance (and support the reckless Baby Boomer generation?)

Also, the forms you need to fill out are something like 60+ pages and ask you every detail under the sun. Apparently the IRS will check it too, sounds like it's another quasi-tax form (!!).

While I applaud the idea of 'national healthcare for everyone' I am 100% sure that government will completely and utterly f*ck it up and it will become another black hole with special interest groups and lobbyists winning out. Basically we'll get Amtrack-style healthcare for the masses and for those of us who want 1st class service across the board we will need to go to private hospitals. That's partially a reality now anyway in the US and the West I guess. Having to wait 3-6 months for MRI's and other 'specialty' procedures like you do in Canada or the UK will suck too.

OP's big picture point is spot on here...lots of money to be made, and a lot of it will be pretty sketchily done I bet!!

[Alpharius]

(10-02-2013 07:17 AM)Akula Wrote:  

Does anyone know if you need to sign up for this if you're living abroad as a US citizen? When I went to healthcare.gov it asked me immediately what state I live in and that is the only way to get the process going.

I assume living abroad means we're exempt from having to purchase healthcare insurance (and support the reckless Baby Boomer generation?)

Also, the forms you need to fill out are something like 60+ pages and ask you every detail under the sun. Apparently the IRS will check it too, sounds like it's another quasi-tax form (!!).

For people living abroad to qualify for the Affordable Care Act's "Foreign Exclusion" you must be outside of the USA for 330 days a year, and be what the IRS refers to as a "bona fide resident" of another country. Even if you don't qualify, you only need to pay $95, which is cheaper than a parking ticket. I actually wish I could opt out of car insurance like this, but whatever.

The IRS is the agency responsible for getting people to pay up if they don't pay, so of course it's going to be some byzantine system.

[Nemencine]

(09-30-2013 07:13 PM)Nemencine Wrote:  

..... OBAMACARE will be implemented starting from tomorrow: OCT 1st, 2013.
..... How do i profit in the stock market from this event?...., with stocks like THC, HCA, CYH, VHS, HMA, LPNT, UNH, WLP...etc... http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/524.html .... What stocks should i look forward to going long that will benefit from obamacare and why?.....

I took positions the next day. A week has passed since that post... ... i like the fundamentals of WLP the best...however, i am ignoring UNH and WLP(they are both insurance companies). caveat emptor: i do not like the fundies of THC, HCA, CYH, HMA, or LPNT...(VHS has been bought out by TENET.)... Even though i dont like the fundies, this is a 300million people fueled event driven trades, as such, i put on a speculative play and ignore the fundies.

A week in, so far, so good: LPNT up 6.6%; HCA up by 9.5%; CYH up by 10%; THC up by 15%. .... all in one week. hahahaha. while HMA is up by 8.3% i didnt like technical outlook.(i explain better on HMA chart below)

Basically, my babies are: LPNT, HCA, CYH, THC. My trailing stoploss/profit taking approach is from william o'neil's "how to make money in stocks".

Of course, i expect pullbacks...no stocks ever goes up in a straight line.... anyways, we will see how things develop.

anyways, the chart tells the tale:

[paninaro]

So anyway back on topic.. here are some opportunities:

1. Part of Obamacare included big funding to practitioners for EMR (electronic medical records). So you have physicians with a deadline to spend money upgrading their internal records systems.

2. Payment for services will start shifting from task-based to outcome-based i.e. doctor gets paid $X to solve your problem (pneumonia) instead of $A for this test, $B for this test, etc. There will be a need for IT systems to help physician groups with this (maybe to manage costs).

3. (Not related to Obamacare, but still a need). Many doctor's offices handling billing in-house, but they are located in areas with high labor costs. Offer to outsource this, but near-shore it (like to a cheaper part of the same state) so that lots of mail-based operations (sending out bills, receiving checks, etc) will still run just as fast as before as you're nearby anyway. Many states offer incentives to open up a business in the economically-disadvantaged part of the state.

Personally #3 is my favorite.

[OSL]

(10-07-2013 11:48 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

So anyway back on topic.. here are some opportunities:

1. Part of Obamacare included big funding to practitioners for EMR (electronic medical records). So you have physicians with a deadline to spend money upgrading their internal records systems.

2. Payment for services will start shifting from task-based to outcome-based i.e. doctor gets paid $X to solve your problem (pneumonia) instead of $A for this test, $B for this test, etc. There will be a need for IT systems to help physician groups with this (maybe to manage costs).

3. (Not related to Obamacare, but still a need). Many doctor's offices handling billing in-house, but they are located in areas with high labor costs. Offer to outsource this, but near-shore it (like to a cheaper part of the same state) so that lots of mail-based operations (sending out bills, receiving checks, etc) will still run just as fast as before as you're nearby anyway. Many states offer incentives to open up a business in the economically-disadvantaged part of the state.

Personally #3 is my favorite.

I agree with this. I know people who are working in startups in this space and have been mulling diving into this opportunity myself.

[bacon]

Buy fastfood stocks. If people know they can get coverage no matter how unhealthy they are you will see them keep shoveling more shit into their mouths.

Also fast food companies are what healthcare companies are investing in so clearly they know whats up.

[paninaro]

(10-08-2013 07:13 PM)bacon Wrote:  

Buy fastfood stocks. If people know they can get coverage no matter how unhealthy they are you will see them keep shoveling more shit into their mouths.

I think most people who shovel fast food in their mouths aren't savvy enough to consider its effect (or not) on insurance premiums. They're barely literate.

And if they have a real job (think government bureaucrat -- idiotic enough to eat fast food all day), then they already have access to health care through their employer, that is not risk-based.

[Nemencine]

@ paninaro and youngglobalmobile.

Good points. Some of your suggestions are focused on billings... speaking of billing, i can imagine a mobile APP that allow patients to automatically see the list of the cheapest pharmacists for their medication in their vicinity. Pharmacists offering discounts for a patient's specific medication will be prioritize. Not just the cheapest pharmacists; the app could also have a predictive algorithm that will guess-estimate prescription fill time at the pharmacists and also the doctor's waiting room time; etc. Who knows, this app could be use by the doctor as s/he is writing your medical prescription.

The extent of the implementation of Obamacare is going to be quite vast: not just doctors, nurses, pharmacies, and hospitals; it will also include cryptographers/encryptions, healthcare info systems, medical technicians, surgical technicians, patient records, logistics, nutritionists, chiropractors, physical therapists, malpractice lawyers, medical scientists, medical device inventors, etc.... it is going to be a long stream of opportunities just bubbling and churning out to those adept and savvy enough to exploit it. A couple of years from now, megamillionaires are going to be made on the back of obamacare.... and some of them are starting right now...

@bacon

Thanks for the input. but i agree with paninaro's assessment with regards to fastfood. (2) I dont think healthcare corporations buying or not buying fastfood stocks is an efficient investment strategy with regards to obamacare. I think that is reading too much into things. But thanks for the suggestions.
I must add, that i think some young companies will roll out hot-in-demand products for the obamacare and debut IPO that will catch fire. Some of these companies will be quickly acquired by bigger healthcare companies, of course. In the bubble phase of obamacare implementation--yes, there is going to be a bubble phase in the healthcare sector--some of these young companies are going to be overpriced due to this bubble. Megamillions will be made.

[Lou pai]

Not entirely related to Obama Care but to health insurance and the baby boomers is buying a senior care franchise. As many people are aging and with many people not having enough money to enter retirement homes many are going to rely on nurses coming to their house.

Also look at American realty capital healthcare trust, it is a REIT that buys medical office buildings, hospitals, etc.

[paninaro]

(10-09-2013 12:42 AM)Nemencine Wrote:  

I can imagine a mobile APP that allow patients to automatically see the list of the cheapest pharmacists for their medication in their vicinity. Pharmacists offering discounts for a patient's specific medication will be prioritize. Not just the cheapest pharmacists; the app could also have a predictive algorithm that will guess-estimate prescription fill time at the pharmacists and also the doctor's waiting room time; etc. Who knows, this app could be use by the doctor as s/he is writing your medical prescription.

Maybe. I believe most health care plans already have negotiated plans with pharmacies, so the end-user cost would pretty much be the same regardless of the pharmacy they choose.

Also, my guess (but I don't know) is that most prescriptions are for recrurring needs, like people with a chronic condition so they need their meds every dy for years. In that case, insurers usually do refills by mail since it's cheaper and centralized.

I still like the outsourced billing idea.

[Nemencine]

(10-09-2013 12:22 PM)Lou pai Wrote:  

.....As many people are aging and with many people not having enough money to enter retirement homes many are going to rely on nurses coming to their house.

Also look at American realty capital healthcare trust, it is a REIT that buys medical office buildings, hospitals, etc.

Good point. Medical office buildings will be in demand too. real estate space that focus on medicine, basically. I will also expect a boom in medical transportation(ambulances or special-purpose discount taxi service designed specifically for transporting non-ambulatory patients from their home to a place of care....)

(10-09-2013 03:17 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

Maybe. I believe most health care plans already have negotiated plans with pharmacies, so the end-user cost would pretty much be the same regardless of the pharmacy they choose.....

Interesting. I am not an american, so obviously, i am going to get somethings wrong. I thought that price of prescription medication at walmart will be different from the ones at riteaid or the ones at walgreen or costco or local, independently owned pharmacies. You are saying they are all the same for a specific insurance plan? regardless of the pharmacy? interesting. i learn new things everyday. They(different pharmacies) all offer the same sales discount on the same prescription medications at the same time window? This is negotiated by the insurance companies? fascinating. I guess i will have to talk to a couple of american pharmacists to get more indepth.

Also, the app could help determine which pharmacist in your vicinity has your specific medication in stock. just in case your favourite pharmacist is out of your medication.

(10-09-2013 03:17 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

.......
Also, my guess (but I don't know) is that most prescriptions are for recrurring needs, like people with a chronic condition so they need their meds every dy for years. In that case, insurers usually do refills by mail since it's cheaper and centralized.

True. i believe that most prescriptions are for recurring needs... however, i am guessing that while a lot of medications are mail-order; the rest, you picked it up at the pharmacist. Due to the sensitivity of the medication/FDA drug regulations/black market value of the medication, it may be best for the controlled substance(medication) to be picked up with verifiable ID tags and signature at the pharmacist, in person.

anyways, i will address your questions to american pharmacists. they are the most qualified to answer these questions.

(10-09-2013 03:17 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

......I still like the outsourced billing idea.

So do i.

[Veloce]

I've had shares in Vanguard's Health Care Fund and continue to buy. It's performed extremely well over the past few years and only going to continue this trend based on an aging population.

But then I'm more of a conservative investor compared to guys like OP. I would never draw conclusions about a stock's performance in a mere 9 days of activity.

[paninaro]

(10-09-2013 08:29 PM)Nemencine Wrote:  

Interesting. I am not an american, so obviously, i am going to get somethings wrong. I thought that price of prescription medication at walmart will be different from the ones at riteaid or the ones at walgreen or costco or local, independently owned pharmacies. You are saying they are all the same for a specific insurance plan? regardless of the pharmacy? interesting. i learn new things everyday. They(different pharmacies) all offer the same sales discount on the same prescription medications at the same time window? This is negotiated by the insurance companies? fascinating. I guess i will have to talk to a couple of american pharmacists to get more indepth.

I'm not an expert on this (just have had no reason to go into this in depth), but that's roughly how it works. For example, from the primary care (doctor's) side, two people, each with different insurance carriers, can walk into the same doctor and get the same treatment, and not only will the doctor get paid a different rate (by insurance) for performing the same task, but the recipient (patient) may also end up paying different rates out of pocket.

The US healthcare system is vastly different from how it works in many other countries, since it's not a single-payer system. If you want to get into that industry, I strongly suggest you bring some people on-board who have ample experience in the ins and outs of what is a very (needlessly, IMO) complex system.

[Nemencine]

I was trying to educated myself about the ins-and-outs of the obamacare, when i came across this in the new york times. While I couldnt care less about the democrat vs conservative load of bollocks....there was a part of the articles that leapt at me straight away...it was this ".....At Cornerstone Health Care, a 250-doctor organization in North Carolina, patients with a history of congestive heart failure get a daily phone call from a nurse asking them to step on a scale and report their weight, the best early indicator of an impending emergency. The next stage, Grace Terrell, the president of Cornerstone, told me, will be to give these patients scales that automatically transmit their weight directly to the nurse....".

Holy batman! why haven't i thought of that!?! a weighing scale that automatically transmits the patient weight to the nurse station. simple and elegant.

How about a portable sensor that is part of the urinal and functions to read your urine for diagnostic purposes at the press of a button?....

At your own home, you come in to the lavatory/bathroom to take a piss.... you press in a code on a small panel attached to the wall signifying it is you... it activates a sensor(water proof and attached to the side of the urinal...) you take a piss... it reads your piss conducting a limited strip urinalysis for cancer, diabetes, nephrological issues, hepatic medical issues, etc... and send to a nurse database tracking your health. and then shuts itself down. A preventative care approach.

I wont be surprised if some people, somewhere, are already working on that.

Anywho, in order to better educated myself about the obamacare, i am thinking of getting this book: http://www.sup.org/precart.cgi?id=23436 . It is written by stephen davidson, "new era in u.s.a healthcare: critical next step under the affordable health care". Is anybody familiar with it? I need something objective and non-partisan, that provides solid info that i can potentially exploit for boatload of cash.

regards,

Nemencine

p.s. i added to my position in LPNT at $47.50...risk is $2 per share. that means if it dips to $45.50 i am out. Anyways, i was hoping to add more to CYH at $42...i havent got the chance yet.

[paninaro]

Regarding such a device, in general that's a good idea, but likely will require FDA approval which can take many years. Also you'll need a heap of insurance -- what if the device fails to detect X and the person dies because of it? Lawsuit time.

I'm not quite sure the purpose of this thread. You've offered and asked for business ideas related to Obamacare. Various posters (including me) have offered up some good ideas, and given you advice on the others. You've also introduced the idea of trading health-care related stocks, which seems a bit different from starting a business that is related to health care.

So at what point is one of these ideas good enough and you can move on? Seems to me like I've seen a few good business ideas posted in this thread, but you have just come up with new ones ... are the others not good enough? We can talk for years about different business ideas related to Obamacare, and I guess it's somewhat interesting to discuss, but my understanding is you're looking into actually starting a business, not just talking about it?

[JayJuanGee]

(10-17-2013 10:22 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

So at what point is one of these ideas good enough and you can move on? Seems to me like I've seen a few good business ideas posted in this thread, but you have just come up with new ones ... are the others not good enough? We can talk for years about different business ideas related to Obamacare, and I guess it's somewhat interesting to discuss, but my understanding is you're looking into actually starting a business, not just talking about it?

I thought that the purpose was to look at various trends related to the implementation of Obamacare that would thereafter allow for either short or long term investment (passive income not creating one's own business). I don't think OP wants to work in the healthcare business but to make money off of it... which would be GREAT.

These kinds of healthcare related investments can be fleeting and very profitable if a guy gets in at the right time on some area that no one considered was going to take off or to go down and if a guy can predict it, then he is good, then it does what he predicted and a guy cashes out and moves to the next investment.

In that regard, this thread could be good for years.... and if one sees that one or two years down the road repealing Obamacare is in the making, then potentially new investment opportunities for OP and others reading this thread.

Me, personally, I am not much of a short term trading guy... at least not so far, but I am still interested in ideas that may come up in this thread.

[Nemencine]

First off, let me thank everybody for taking the time to contribute their thoughts/ideas/opinions/constructive criticisms. i appreciate it.

@ PANINARO and JAYJUANGEE.

I think paninaro question applies to not just this thread, but my other threads as well. why does nemencine generate all these ideas? while i see the point of view of paninaro; jayjuangee was on the mark about my intentions. Perhaps, i wasnt clear before, let me use my past posts to properly clarify things. On my intentions:

From my 13th post on the rooshvforum i was trying to made that clear.

(07-11-2013 12:06 AM)Nemencine Wrote:  

.....You get the idea? Nifty inventions that can be churn out, quickly patented, and generate a couple of tens of thousands or 100s of thousands in raw cash. Then to the next idea... I am not interested in some big arse discovery. Just nifty shit like readerest or soundbender, etc. that can knock-in tens or 100s of thousands of cash into my pocket... Any resources to use in navigating this world? i will appreciate it.

On the thread about the biz idea about prepaid cards, i wrote this:

(09-25-2013 11:25 AM)Nemencine Wrote:  

...i just want to be in and out quickly, i wont mind a couple of million here and there, for an early retirement at a very young age. I am not trying to build a telecom giant.....

On the thread about "monetizing your school meal plans"....i wrote this:

(09-15-2013 11:23 AM)Nemencine Wrote:  

......most of my ideas(exhibit "A" and exhibit "B") ... are geared towards actually starting something that a person can turn around and sell in 3 to 5 years for (hopefully) a few million quid/bucks/dinero and high tail it from the decaying western world. That is my focus/mentality. ......

It is also why i am enormously grateful for YOUNGMOBILEGLOBAL for the book: One Simple Idea: Turn Your Dreams into a Licensing Goldmine While Letting Others Do the Work. by stephen key.

I am always on the lookout for good ideas and ways to monetize them to generate various, continuous stream of revenues. Since i am only one person and i cannot be in more than one place at a time, with only 24hour a day. What i cannot do by myself, i simply try to get others to do it for me with profit sharing business agreements. All those ideas that i have posted here...from "monetizing school meals" to "consolidating prepaid phone cards" to "social media apps". etcetera. I am either looking for ways to license those ideas or finding people to build a business around them for me.

This portable urinalysis device that i was talking about in this thread, i already contacted two of my engineering friends. (one has a masters in biomedical engineering, the other has a ph.d. in biomedical engineering) about that idea.

Yes, three days ago, i went to a uni friend that is now a doctor of osteopathic medicine to discuss medical billings. what do you think my next appointment is about? i will be talking to a pharmacist(a friend of my brother about that pharmacy app i was writing about earlier in this thread.).

I already have three people(two electrical engineers and one computer science major- two from UPENN and CORNELL, and other from COLUMBIA) looking into how to build this and this and this(wallaby-like prepaid phone cards).

PANINARO, if you think i am just generating ideas for the sake of generating ideas, with all due respect, you are completely mistaken. There is work being executed behind the scenes that i dont feel like sharing the details on this forum.

Which one of these ideas is going to hit it and make it rain for me? i dont know. Edison had over 100 patents, only 3 made millions. i dont have a horoscope as to which one will yield outsize profits, and i can only do soo much. As such, i delegate/fan things out and try to find licensing opportunities. In fact, i make it a point to network with engineers. They are the most useful people to me. I collect them. Next in line are medical doctors. I collect them too. In fact, i make it my business to network and meet people with serious technical skills. If possible, make them do the work for me.

I simply never know what idea i might have and where i need their expertise.

Anywho, eventually, i will weed out the good ideas from the bad, and the best of the best from the good ideas. the reality is that, just because an idea sounds good in theory doesnt necessarily translate once you get down to the nitty gritty.

Out of whatever remains, the ones that i can develop and then license, i will license. Some of these ideas, i already have people that want to build it up as a business. I let them. We simply work out a percentage that is going to be mine. The goal is to generate multiple stream of revenues.

Again, this is why i really like this book: One Simple Idea: Turn Your Dreams into a Licensing Goldmine While Letting Others Do the Work. by stephen key.


ON WHY I AM ALSO INTERESTED IN TRADING THE FINANCIAL MARKETS.

Well, paninaro, i had to say that once again jayjuangee congently explained my motives clearly: i look for trends and exploit them for cash. There is nothing wrong in developing diverse but complimenting skill sets and leveraging them together to make money.

A person can look for trends, spot that trend, and try to generate ideas to make licensing products in the hope of banking cash. That is fine and well. Why not take that a step further by using knowledge of financial market to make money from stocks with regards to that trend that you've spotted? To me that is optimization.

Again i look for trends; what is hot and how i can milk it. i dont discriminate.

You have your govt shutdown/debt ceiling default, i look for these money making opportunities. What am i suppose to do instead? scream at USA congress? or exploit the situation to my financial benefits.

You have your obamacare. i see money making opportunities. I not just brainstorm ideas with people, I also try and find ways to use the stock market to my advantage in this regards. I mean, why not? Anywho, my LPNT that i entered at $47.50 with $2pershare risk two days ago, is now up to $48.56 = at +$1 per share gain, i am already made +50% return on my risk. I think this obamacare is going to have long term effect on USA...that is why i want to learn a lot more about it... i think the upside is huge.

You have CHINA banning new zealand milk products. I see money making opportunities in terms of LWAY and DF stocks. If i live in new zealand i will be thinking of ways to create portable milk botulism home test kit for parents; while at the same time doing my stock trades with their stock market. why not?

You have QE3, i see money making opportunities. In terms of housing stocks.

I dont see why one money making opportunity has to exclude the others. I try to compliment my skills and not discriminate with regards to cash generating avenues.

respectfully,

Nemencine

[paninaro]

Ok that clears it up a bit, but I guess I'm still unclear on passive vs active.

To me, passive income would be looking for investment opportunities like via the stock market. Figure out some kind of effect Obamacare will have, then invest in companies that can profit from that.

Active to me means running or being closely involved in launching a business to capitalize on it, like the urinalysis or medical billing ideas. Yes, you may get some other people to do a lot of the work, but I'm guessing that at least for the first few years, it's going to actively involve a lot of your time if you want it to be a success.

Another interpretation of passive could be that you start a business, get it rolling nicely, and then either sell it, generate royalties, or put in a good management team to run it. But with all those cases, I'd still define it as active for at least the first few years, since it takes a lot of effort to get a good venture off the ground.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-18-2013 09:33 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

Ok that clears it up a bit, but I guess I'm still unclear on passive vs active.

To me, passive income would be looking for investment opportunities like via the stock market. Figure out some kind of effect Obamacare will have, then invest in companies that can profit from that.

Active to me means running or being closely involved in launching a business to capitalize on it, like the urinalysis or medical billing ideas. Yes, you may get some other people to do a lot of the work, but I'm guessing that at least for the first few years, it's going to actively involve a lot of your time if you want it to be a success.

Another interpretation of passive could be that you start a business, get it rolling nicely, and then either sell it, generate royalties, or put in a good management team to run it. But with all those cases, I'd still define it as active for at least the first few years, since it takes a lot of effort to get a good venture off the ground.

It seems to me that out of your three definitions of passive versus active that OP is more inclined towards your first definition of passive income - even though information gathered in this kind of thread could be used for your second and third scenarios of active participation or even scenario 3 of going from active participation to largely passive.

I frequently try to think about the active versus passive question on a continuum concerning how much work and or time to I have to spend engaged in such, and even stocks have a certain level of active versus passive dynamic - especially if a guy is trading them a lot.

At this time, I am inclined personally towards the more passive types of stocks by use of index funds and dollar cost averaging; however, I get the impression that OP is much more active in his stock trading and does some day trading of stocks and options and even selling short - which are activities that are kind of above my skill and knowledge level.

In my humble opinion when a guy is heavily involved in day trading, then it is much more difficult to call that passive income - although we could recognize that investments may be a mixture of long-term and short term... thus in my view the more long-term investments in the stock market would be more passive b/c those investments would require less work, except maybe from time to time a guy thinking about whether he should change his position on those long term investments.

Likely there are many opportunities to make a shit load of money if you can get your short-term investment predictions correct, and probably, OP would like to brainstorm information in this thread to achieve such.

Some guys have claimed to make well over 30% per year in day trading, and I am sure the potential is much higher, if the guy can predict correctly.

I am not sure if i could see myself ever getting to that level of actively trading, b/c I do not want to spend my time that way, unless i were to have some secret inside knowledge and/or system to make it more passive of an activity. I have seen some guys on this forum claim they can operate on a consistent basis getting more than 30% annual returns... which frequently, I would question the consistency and if the guy has a 10 year track record...

This past calendar year, my stock market index funds have gotten about 18% return, so far. In 2008, they lost about 30% and in 2009, they gained 20%. Funny how that timing is, even with index funds. Overall since 2001, when I started investing in dollar cost averaging of index funds, my return has been a little more than 5% per year average with some years gaining and other years losing... but pretty passive b/c I do not really change what I am doing.. just keep putting in a certain portion of my income every two weeks (which comes out automatically). and then maybe a couple times a year consider whether I should redistribute the various funds... about as passive as a guy could get, in my thinking.

[Nemencine]

My goal is simple: learn diverse but complementary skills, in addition to, networking with various people of serious technical skills(engineers, medical doctors, graduates of art and design schools) to do one thing: create multiple streams of income with an exit strategy that allows me to later live off the revenues without active involvement.

Whatever label(active, passive, liberal, conservative, etc) is attached to that is not of prime importance to me.

Take the portable urinalysis equipment for example. Here is what i plan to do: do more research on the science/engineering aspect of it. (2)Expand the discussion to involve the medical technologists in my rolodex.(3)Conduct serious market research to see how indemand it will be with medical testing companies like "bioreference", "labcorp", etc. doctors/nurses, etc. It is important to see if there is a solid market for your good ideas before jumping headlong. Many good ideas are not worth dogshit.(4) design a working prototype. (5)Refine and simplify the prototype with the help of art/designers while doing the utility patents/intellectual rights/patents, etc.. (6)Find product scout/licensing expert to help get a licensing deal with major device companies like siemens, roche, bayer, ames, genzyme, etc. It is common industry practice for product scout/licensing expert to not get paid until they secure a deal for your ideas with a company.(7)Move on to the next idea and repeat step 1 through 6. Eventually, one of my ideas will be the rainmaker(of course, i dont mind a collection of minor revenue streams either.).

If on the other hand, i try to build a company around such a 1 product, here is what is going to happen: a company like siemens or genzyme will crush me like a bug. And that is after years of trying to get the company started with loans and various financing tranches. Could i be lucky and get bought out at a large sum? possible but unlikely. A more likely scenario will be that the phalanx of engineers and lawyers at siemens or roche will reverse engineer the product and battle me to death in court. Respectfully, i am not a big fan of david versus goliath story.

A more optimal scenario is to license my idea from the start and collect royalties for a long time. it takes less time and effort because you dont need to build a company to collect royalties or license a product or idea. Also, if i churn out multiple products like that, i can collect multiple royalties from multiple companies.

What i can license, i license; what i can sell, i sell; the ones that my friends/associates are adamantly interested in building a business around, i let them and simply structure a business deal with them about it. Let them do the work. The reality is that i cannot run more than one business at a time--i have my own business i am currently working on right now. Licensing/deal making like these allows me the potential to reap the rewards of my other ideas while i still focus on my main business. I am only one man, i cannot be in more than one place at a time; and i only have 24hrs in a day.

Like i said, You do not need to start a business to collect royalties. That is what i am realizing now as i delve into this world. All you need is a good idea or product. Heck, in fact, you dont even need to be originator of the idea(this is what product scout/licensing expert does: they collect partial/split royalties on other people's ideas, if and only if, they manage to get companies interested in the idea).

As such, whatever idea i have, my secondary goal is to ask: how can i turn this into something that can be licensed? It is impressive the range of things you can license. Heaven bless capitalism.

YOUNGMOBILEGLOBAL'S send me a link to stephen key: One Simple Idea: Turn Your Dreams into a Licensing Goldmine While Letting Others Do the Work it completely opened my eyes. The range of things you can license is staggering. It may not even take you 3 months to build from start to finish... then leave the remaining heavy lifting to the licensing expert.

YMG once asked me to do a review of that book after i have finished reading it... but i have been lazy about doing that.... I promise myself that it is something that i will try to do after i score my first major licensing deal. In that way, i can combine the advice of that book with the lessons of my own practical, successful experience; bring them together to bring value to the forum.

regards,

--Nemencine

[paninaro]

Ok, so as I understand it, you're looking for ideas that you can license. You have no plans to actually start and build a full business around the idea -- you just want to get the idea to a point you can license or sell it.

Nothing wrong with that, and it could work. From an entrepreneurial perspective though, I think it can be tough. There's a saying in that circle that ideas are nothing, and execution is everything. There are very few areas where you can exclusively own an idea, and competitors can't just engineer around any "protection" (patent, etc) you may have in place. (An exception would be pharmaceuticals, because of regulations.)

Another thing to watch out for, though it may not necessarily apply in your case (since you don't want to get too involved) is spreading yourself too thin. I counsel entrepreneurs on a regular basis, and a problem I frequently see is they try to come up with too many products or focus on too many industries. I tell them that given their limited resources, they should just pick the product and industry combination that will generate the most profits, and focus solely on that. It's better to do one thing well than a lot of things poorly.

I think I just misunderstood your goals going into this thread, and that was probably my fault for not reading closely enough. I thought your goal was to start up one business, build it, and then live from that. It sounds like you don't want to get involved in building a business, nor in focusing on one particular business.

[Nemencine]

In a nutshell. I already have my own side business i am working on right now.(apart from my regular scientist work). So, instead of letting a potentially good idea goes to waste, why not try to exploit it through licensing?

Unquestionably, execution is key. ideas are a dime a dozen. That is why i like that thread "your ideas are worthless". I also agree about the danger of engineering around an idea to an inventor. that is also why licensing is beneficial. If you are able to get licensing from one of the big dogs, they are more likely to fight any reverse engineering of your idea(since they are benefiting from it) rather than do the reverse engineering against you.

Pharmaceuticals are a different market model, of course. the orphan drug status is a clear example. There is no way to engineer past that. Speaking of pharmaceuticals, i have some kick arse ideas in that area too.... if you are a biochemists/physical chemists, they will blow your mind(i am dead serious); which is partially why i have zero intentions of ever posting them on this forum. Also, the arcane biochemical science of the ideas makes it absolutely not ideal for a game forum like RVF.

i agree about not spreading yourself too thin. That is why i go the licensing route with other ideas... because i am already working on a side business(apart from my scientist job). Focus is key. I agree that a person should do one thing well, rather than many things poorly. There is no point starting up another business on top, and along, a regular job(that will make 3 businesses). Besides, it is humanly impossible for me. I block out time to work on my side business everyday. monday to sunday. No day off, really. I work on my side business at my regular job whenever possible. all my break time at my regular job is consumed with my side business.

I sometimes wonder how some of these lads here manage to have the time to fuck +100 girls per year as they claim. I can only do between 15 to 20 different girls per year(and that is with toning down the quality of bangs every now and then).

Between doing regular job + side business + exercise + slaying the ladies + networking with people + trying to licensing other ideas . It is fucking insane for me. Eventually, i will have to say goodbye to my regular job. It is inevitable. It is just a matter of time. I just dont see any other way around this.

Anyways, thanks for the advice, paninaro. If anything sensitive develop in the future, i will keep in mind your job description of "advisor to entrepreneurs".
i may need your services beyond the rooshvforum exchange back and forth.

cheers,

--Nemencine

(10-19-2013 10:38 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

Ok, so as I understand it, you're looking for ideas that you can license. You have no plans to actually start and build a full business around the idea -- you just want to get the idea to a point you can license or sell it.

Nothing wrong with that, and it could work. From an entrepreneurial perspective though, I think it can be tough. There's a saying in that circle that ideas are nothing, and execution is everything. There are very few areas where you can exclusively own an idea, and competitors can't just engineer around any "protection" (patent, etc) you may have in place. (An exception would be pharmaceuticals, because of regulations.)

Another thing to watch out for, though it may not necessarily apply in your case (since you don't want to get too involved) is spreading yourself too thin. I counsel entrepreneurs on a regular basis, and a problem I frequently see is they try to come up with too many products or focus on too many industries. I tell them that given their limited resources, they should just pick the product and industry combination that will generate the most profits, and focus solely on that. It's better to do one thing well than a lot of things poorly.

I think I just misunderstood your goals going into this thread, and that was probably my fault for not reading closely enough. I thought your goal was to start up one business, build it, and then live from that. It sounds like you don't want to get involved in building a business, nor in focusing on one particular business.

[paninaro]

(10-20-2013 12:17 AM)Nemencine Wrote:  

Anyways, thanks for the advice, paninaro. If anything sensitive develop in the future, i will keep in mind your job description of "advisor to entrepreneurs".
i may need your services beyond the rooshvforum exchange back and forth.

Oh I just do that for free as a way to give back. For people I meet in person (which is the usual case), my "charge" is they buy a drink for me at the place we meet.