[RussianSoul]

Something else I forgot to touch on...Guys exaggerate their body weights. Just like like women feel the need to subtract 15lbs from their actual weight, guys tend to do the opposite. This is as old as time. I remember reading an article that Eugen Sanddow was actually 20lbs lighter than he claimed. And today, many NFL players for example exaggerate their weights because their contracts often have weight stipulations. The net result of this is skewed expectations for how much a man should weigh. I would be bet money that the muscular guys you see walking around are a lot lighter than they claim.

On a similar note, the expectations for what a natural trainee can accomplish are also way out of whack. No offense to scorpion, but when guys post videos of Ronnie Coleman, I know they are living in a different reality. Ronnie is a beast, but that man has/had more synthetic test, hgh, and insulin flowing through his veins than any man that walked the earth before him. Truthfully, a 6 ft ripped roughly 200lb guy is as rare as a white unicorn. I can only think of a few guys in the internet that meet that description (Martin Berkhan comes to mind). I live in a big Euro city and I never see guys that look like that except for the occasional 1-2 posers in clubs and most of the time you can tell they are taking something. For a natural trainee to achieve that, he would have to possess above average genetics and perfectly dialed in diet/training. My point is, if looking good is your priority, many guys would be better off focusing on leanness albeit at the cost of some mass. There are a tiny percentage of women that like men that look like silver back gorillas but most women prefer lean. I have been at both ends of the spectrum and the feedback I get now is overwhelmingly better.

[Sonsowey]

Lol OP u need to get on a strict diet to bulk bro

Chips
Ice Cream
Candy
Burgers
Fries
McNuggets

That'll bulk u out bro n then ull be swole

[reaper23]

(08-28-2013 09:03 PM)lovejoy Wrote:  

(08-28-2013 10:13 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

i am 6'4" and I have 200 lbs of LBM. and I dont even feel close to being jacked

I am at 17% BF and declining. We'll see when I get down to 12% if this illusion kicks in.

But there is something to be said for looking big in clothes....unless you're on the beach/pool all the time, looking big in clothes is what is going to get the clothes off the girl.

Big guys look fat in suits, the gorilla build is not attractive to the majority of women. It's the same thing with cutting too much, it's a turn off as well.

I wear a suit every day. I have all my suits taken in the waist and it creates a very nice V taper in the back.

Not sure why you think a guy who is big has to look fat in a suit? You just need a good tailor.

Hell, I only have a 8"-10" inch drop and the V taper is striking. When i finally get down to 12% BF, it should be even more pronounced. And at that point I'll weigh 225 or so.

[jimukr104]

@russiansoul you live in euro where being slim and lean is ideal. America has a BIG fetish. There was a news program on it. Probably to help justify our overweightness. But our popular football is big guys...mostly fat mixed with muscle. I think a nations sports heroes has to do With it.
Btw why people keep bringing up Ronnie. He's gross. Girls picked arnolds body over his. The ideal is large shoulders and small bottom. Ronnie legs are so bulky itvactually makes him loOk like he has hips.
That being said did you ever think of adding weight to your push ups?
I mention that because pullups are probably the best exercise for back mass since it's alot of weight. Most guys can't even do them but push ups get so easy that the muscle stops growing. You couldcprobably get chest bigger automatically by putting weight oncyour back during push ups.
What is your shoulder,chest, arms measurements?

[WanderingSoul]

(08-29-2013 08:10 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

@russiansoul you live in euro where being slim and lean is ideal. America has a BIG fetish. There was a news program on it. Probably to help justify our overweightness. But our popular football is big guys...mostly fat mixed with muscle. I think a nations sports heroes has to do With it.
Btw why people keep bringing up Ronnie. He's gross. Girls picked arnolds body over his. The ideal is large shoulders and small bottom. Ronnie legs are so bulky itvactually makes him loOk like he has hips.
That being said did you ever think of adding weight to your push ups?
I mention that because pullups are probably the best exercise for back mass since it's alot of weight. Most guys can't even do them but push ups get so easy that the muscle stops growing. You couldcprobably get chest bigger automatically by putting weight oncyour back during push ups.
What is your shoulder,chest, arms measurements?

I respect Ronnie for his work ethic and what he has accomplished, but the dude looks terrible in my opinion. I mean, he looks great for what he wants to do, which is great for him, but it isn't an aesthetically pleasing physique or one I would want to imitate, not that I even could.

Bodybuilders of the 70's is where it's at, IMO. That is the ultimate physique.

[jimukr104]

Hey rio how do you recommend I lose fat to see my abs without actually losing weight?
As an ecto it is hard to build fast enough. I already went down from 183 to 175 and My abs still notctherr.

[WanderingSoul]

(08-29-2013 08:42 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Hey rio how do you recommend I lose fat to see my abs without actually losing weight?
As an ecto it is hard to build fast enough. I already went down from 183 to 175 and My abs still notctherr.

Pfft, I'm about to do my first cut so I'm not so lean myself. I build muscle fast, but also put on fat easily.

My plan is to do intermittent fasting. Check this out for some more info: http://rippedbody.jp/2011/10/08/leangain...-yourself/

[reaper23]

jimurk104: there is only answer: less calories.

[scorpion]

To clarify: I posted that Ronnie Coleman vid just for the quote at the beginning. I don't consider his physique close to ideal.

I agree with RioNomad that the early bodybuilders had the best looks. They were big and thick without looking like gorillas, and had nice levels of definition without looking completely unnatural with super low bodyfat.

Also, RussianSoul's look make sense now that I realize he doesn't train legs. Personally I wouldn't want to build an imbalanced physique like that, but it's his body, so if he's pleased with the results then I can't hate.

[Soma]

(08-29-2013 11:30 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Also, RussianSoul's look make sense now that I realize he doesn't train legs. Personally I wouldn't want to build an imbalanced physique like that, but it's his body, so if he's pleased with the results then I can't hate.

[Cyr]

(08-29-2013 01:37 AM)RussianSoul Wrote:  

Something else I forgot to touch on...Guys exaggerate their body weights. Just like like women feel the need to subtract 15lbs from their actual weight, guys tend to do the opposite. This is as old as time. I remember reading an article that Eugen Sanddow was actually 20lbs lighter than he claimed. And today, many NFL players for example exaggerate their weights because their contracts often have weight stipulations. The net result of this is skewed expectations for how much a man should weigh. I would be bet money that the muscular guys you see walking around are a lot lighter than they claim.

On a similar note, the expectations for what a natural trainee can accomplish are also way out of whack. No offense to scorpion, but when guys post videos of Ronnie Coleman, I know they are living in a different reality. Ronnie is a beast, but that man has/had more synthetic test, hgh, and insulin flowing through his veins than any man that walked the earth before him. Truthfully, a 6 ft ripped roughly 200lb guy is as rare as a white unicorn. I can only think of a few guys in the internet that meet that description (Martin Berkhan comes to mind). I live in a big Euro city and I never see guys that look like that except for the occasional 1-2 posers in clubs and most of the time you can tell they are taking something. For a natural trainee to achieve that, he would have to possess above average genetics and perfectly dialed in diet/training. My point is, if looking good is your priority, many guys would be better off focusing on leanness albeit at the cost of some mass. There are a tiny percentage of women that like men that look like silver back gorillas but most women prefer lean. I have been at both ends of the spectrum and the feedback I get now is overwhelmingly better.

I think that you have a very aesthetic physique, but regardless of what women prefer, it is false to state there are very few 6ft tall ripped roughly 200lb guys. There are a lot of them.
For example: I'm only 16, haven't trained as much as I would have liked over the last six months and am (at the height of 6'1) ripped enough to have a good six pack and definition. I currently weigh 190 pounds and think that in the next 9 months I should be able to gain at least another 15-20 mainly on my legs.
Edit: Included my personal stats

[reaper23]

Haha I wish I was 15 lbs lighter than I tell people. I weighed in today at 243. 228 would be close to my ideal.

What guys underestimate is their body fat. Now that is common.

[mikeymike]

(08-29-2013 08:31 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 08:10 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

@russiansoul you live in euro where being slim and lean is ideal. America has a BIG fetish. There was a news program on it. Probably to help justify our overweightness. But our popular football is big guys...mostly fat mixed with muscle. I think a nations sports heroes has to do With it.
Btw why people keep bringing up Ronnie. He's gross. Girls picked arnolds body over his. The ideal is large shoulders and small bottom. Ronnie legs are so bulky itvactually makes him loOk like he has hips.
That being said did you ever think of adding weight to your push ups?
I mention that because pullups are probably the best exercise for back mass since it's alot of weight. Most guys can't even do them but push ups get so easy that the muscle stops growing. You couldcprobably get chest bigger automatically by putting weight oncyour back during push ups.
What is your shoulder,chest, arms measurements?

I respect Ronnie for his work ethic and what he has accomplished, but the dude looks terrible in my opinion. I mean, he looks great for what he wants to do, which is great for him, but it isn't an aesthetically pleasing physique or one I would want to imitate, not that I even could.

Bodybuilders of the 70's is where it's at, IMO. That is the ultimate physique.

I hope nobody is under the illusion that the golden era guys were clean. I agree that their look is a lot more palatable than the slin monsters that are out there today. That unfortunately is the way the sport is going so I see many of my training partners going that route but it's not a mainstream look at all.

[Basil Ransom]

The man pictured in a white bathing suit is Steve Reeves, who was a big bodybuilder in the 1950s, and supposedly clean. Bodybuilders who came after him were almost assuredly juicing.

Usually, it's impossible to get too big provided you're not using steroids. Arnold still looked aesthetic with his steroid use, but you can't say the same of modern pro-bodybuilders.

[mikeymike]

(08-29-2013 01:00 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

The man pictured in a white bathing suit is Steve Reeves, who was a big bodybuilder in the 1950s, and supposedly clean. Bodybuilders who came after him were almost assuredly juicing.

Usually, it's impossible to get too big provided you're not using steroids. Arnold still looked aesthetic with his steroid use, but you can't say the same of modern pro-bodybuilders.

I know who it is, and he was as supposedly clean as the bb'ers of today, they were just wading into aas use those days and not swimming laps in the deep end like we see today with aas just being the starting point. I think it's fair to say Reeves wasn't on them his entire career but he was progressing well into his movie days when his training took a backseat, he certainly dabbled and there are too many reports about other golden era guys saying they were introduced to aas by him, arnolds biographer talked to a trainer who had done aas with him, the myth talks about how Reeves used....Reeves disputed it all but then that's what everyone does. No way to know for sure, his physique may not be chemical warfare style like it is today but it was still beyond advanced and that usually requires help.

Slin is the aesthetic killer, it brings on size like nothing else, but it can kill lines like nothing else. Heath looks like he's filled with helium, the muscle quality is for shit it lacks the quality that arnold, mentzer, olivia and guys had back then but the new guys blow away the old guard on sheer size on a frame. You can look great on aas alone, bring in gh and you can still look great but use gh long enough and you have to get into slin eventually or you'll become a diabetic and that's when itll go sideways on ya.

[WanderingSoul]

Of course they were not clean. I could care less if someone is on gear or not. I don't follow societies thoguhts about gear use. I see no problem with it.

[RussianSoul]

(08-29-2013 11:30 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Also, RussianSoul's look make sense now that I realize he doesn't train legs. Personally I wouldn't want to build an imbalanced physique like that, but it's his body, so if he's pleased with the results then I can't hate.

Did you read my second post? I do BW squats every workout(wide stand, close, pistols). I didn't post a picture of my legs, yet I am presumed to be unbalanced?

[RussianSoul]

Ok, so I have taken a little heat in this thread not for how I look but for referring to myself as built when I don't weigh much for my height. I think this perhaps really a matter of semantics. In my opinion, there is the following scale when it comes to male physiques:

Skinny(Self-Explanatory)>Skinny Ripped(Basically, a guy with nothing but a 6 pack(Brad Pitt in fight club))> Built(6 pack and noticeable muscle(Ryan Reynolds in Blade 3)> Big(A lot of muscle but not particularly lean, think Vin Diesel)>Freak of Nature(Big and Lean).

The latter really only applies to pro-bodybuilders and top athletes in 1-2 sports. None of these guys maintain that look year round and most of them are getting help.

There are a couple good reasons why I am weary about becoming bigger. Firstly, clothes. Nice clothes, Armani suits, etc are made for slim guys. Big guys just don't look as good in them, its an undeniable fact. Under a suit, an Arnold chest looks like man-boobs.

Secondly, the whole muscle head look is an enigma outside the U.S. I grew up in the U.S and have lived abroad for a while now. America may be the only country in the world where a sizable percentage of women like the look. I trace this to American football and WWE. Euro women are turned off by the look. Why invest so much time and effort into a look that most of the world doesn't like?

I didn't start this thread to fish for compliments or to get criticized by people who admire AAS users for the matter. I put this up to help young guys trying to achieve a certain look and avoid stupid advice. Most young guys don't want to look like Arnold, if anything more like Brad Pitt in fight club(which ironically is what most women go crazy over). My physique is comparable, if not more muscular and so yea I think I have some credibility in achieving that goal.

Let me play out a scenario for you..You have a tall 18 year old, just started college. Hes a got decent natural build but his arms are small and he wants a 6-pack. He wants to get buff! So he joins a bodybuilding program and everyone, literally everyone, tells him that he need to do Starting Strength. In fact, since hes a skinny bastard, they tell him to do GOMAD too. With such unanimous advice, how can the kid go wrong? He does the program faithfully and initially is thrilled. The scale goes up, he looks bigger in his clothes, and all his lifts are going up. 6 months later hes gained 30 pounds(60% muscle, 40% fat.). His abs are less visible then when he started. Most of muscle mass he gain is in his thighs/ass and his arms are still small. The kid is left thinking: WTF!. His sole consolation is hes a big guy now and hes a got a solid 3 lift total...

I wish this scenario was hypothetical. That was me and I have seen the same shit play out over and over again. I gained 30 lbs of useless mass. No girls could tell that I had put on mass, because it was all hiding in my jeans. Unless you are playing football, what the hell do you need the mass for? My point is this: most young guys would better off getting really lean and adding mass slowly to the rights areas. 5 pounds in the shoulders/chest/arms is a lot more noticeable than 20 pounds in the legs. Calisthenics is perfect for this type of goal...

Aside from the looks, there is the whole issue of relative strength, which is totally underrated btw. And this is what I don't like about free weights. The amount of weight you can lift will go up the more you weigh. It gives people a false confidence in how strong they are. I am not impressed when when I see a 260LB guy lay down and bench 3 plates, yet same guy will strut around the gym like hes the shit. He probably cant do one pull-up. Do you think women care how much weight you can put up? Despite not lifting for a year, I am confident I could dead lift 400 pounds off the floor with good form. So what. Girls are more impressed when I go over to the nearest pole and hold a human flag for 10 seconds. Fuck, long post. I am tired so I am going to stop writing now...

[WanderingSoul]

All of your posts are filled with ridiculous hypotheticals and extreme examples. Do you know how many guys out there can bench three plates and weigh much much less than your 260lb example? My buddy weighs less than I do and puts up over three plates.

You really don't think girls like guys with the build of the Hodge Twins I posted? Really? You must also believe it when girls tell you they want a nice guy who buys them flowers as well. Do girls like Brad Pitts build? Of course. But one blog who did one "study" about bodytypes that girls preferred is suddenly being quoted as if its a real study. You could put in a thousand different bodybuilders and brad Pitt look alikes and get different results. Not to mention lighting, pose, skin tone, etc. All have dramatic effects on the outcome.

Also "bodybuilder" is an extremely vague term. So many people and bodytypes fit into that, yet you always want to bring out the extreme examples.

I'm 185lbs, squat 2x my bodyweight, don't have a six pack, and can still do over a dozen pullups and a fuck ton of dips. You really think guys who are strong with weights can't do pullups? Or that your bodyweight has to go up to get stronger? You realize weight lifting and power lifting have weight classes, right? There are some extremely strong dudes out there that weigh even less than you do.

You keep bringing up GOMAD and starting strength, but I don't think anyone here has advocated gomad. Not sure why you insist on brining that up constantly.

Bottom line is you absolutely can build a great body with heavy compound lifts and a good diet. It wont make you fat, and it doesn't mean you can't do pullups. It also doesn't mean you will build a body that girls dont like.

you've obviously built a good physique, but you argue using hypotheticals, extreme examples, and by putting words in people's mouth, just like a woman would. That's why you are catching heat, not because of your body, but because you are annoying.

Im going to the gym now to build a ugly body that cant do pullups or get girls. Peace.

[RussianSoul]

RioNomad: You sound agitated, not quite sure what I did to offend you. I have little interest in arguing with someone who hides behind a keyboard. As a general rule, I don't take lectures on fitness from people don't look better than me. And for someone who cheer-leads the merits of free weights, you are pretty weak man(335 deadlift?). 6 months into weigh training, I was repping 400 on the dead lift. Anyways, lets not hijack the thread, shall we? Everyone has different goals, yours are obviously different.

[BoiBoi]

I'll drop my 2 cents:

I'm doing SS and while I'm no beast at the rack, my Squat and my DL are alright in relation to my bodyweight and height. I'm 6'4'' and weigh 192lbs, hence I'm on the leaner side with some good definition, not like OP, but I'm getting there. The program def helped to make my body look better and to become stronger. What I'm trying to say is that SS and looking lean/ ripped are not mutually exclusive.

[WanderingSoul]

Again, arguing like a woman, and leaving out the fact that I've done 365x5, but dropped the weight to work on form, to make your argument sound better. 365x5 would put me at a respectable, but not impressive by any means, 1rm. Probably right around your 400 you said you can do. Not to mention that I'm hovering on a 2x bodyweight squat, which no one would call "weak".

I've never claimed to be big or strong or cut, just that you can obviously get that way with heavy barbell training, which you seem to think otherwise as far as putting on lean muscle. Ive given you props for being cut up. No hate on that st all. But you seem adamantly opposed that people can build good bodies with heavy compound lifts for some reason.

Either way, have fun with your bodyweight training, back to squatting for me.

[WanderingSoul]

(08-30-2013 03:04 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

I'll drop my 2 cents:

I'm doing SS and while I'm no beast at the rack, my Squat and my DL are alright in relation to my bodyweight and height. I'm 6'4'' and weigh 192lbs, hence I'm on the leaner side with some good definition, not like OP, but I'm getting there. The program def helped to make my body look better and to become stronger. What I'm trying to say is that SS and looking lean/ ripped are not mutually exclusive.

That is really what I'm trying to say. You won't see many lean ripped dudes on ss because it is for beginners, or people coming off a long layoff, but you most certainly can pack on lots of lean muscle with a heavy barbell program.

Will someone who has been doing bodyweight work consistenly for s considerable amount of time be in better aestetic shape than a newbie on ss? Of course, that's very obvious. But does that mean ss, or many other heavy barbell programs are bad for lean mass? Of course not.

That is my entire argument that gets ignored over and over.

[RussianSoul]

Heavy barbell programs are are the best for packing on mass(I never said differently), its just the look I take issue with. I see a lot guys who do these programs and end up with bottom heavy physiques, not a good look in my opinion. This isn't just a fat issue, its a matter of where you are putting on the lean mass. I think these programs(SS, 5x5) put too much emphasis on the lower body giving guys an almost pear shaped body. That said, resistance training is resistance training. Weights, like calisthenics, can lead to an aesthetic physique but in my experience the upper body needs a lot more volume than these programs are providing.

To reiterate, I wasn't try to say calisthenics is the only way. I think its a good way if you are going for the cut up/lightly muscled look. I put very little time and worry into maintaining my physique. When I was going to the gym, I knew guys that were constantly chugging back a protein shake, worrying about their next meal,never drank alcohol, etc...That sort of lifestyle in unappealing to me and I think I found a good compromise.

[WanderingSoul]

(08-30-2013 05:17 AM)RussianSoul Wrote:  

Heavy barbell programs are are the best for packing on mass(I never said differently), its just the look I take issue with. I see a lot guys who do these programs and end up with bottom heavy physiques, not a good look in my opinion. This isn't just a fat issue, its a matter of where you are putting on the lean mass. I think these programs(SS, 5x5) put too much emphasis on the lower body giving guys an almost pear shaped body. That said, resistance training is resistance training. Weights, like calisthenics, can lead to an aesthetic physique but in my experience the upper body needs a lot more volume than these programs are providing.

To reiterate, I wasn't try to say calisthenics is the only way. I think its a good way if you are going for the cut up/lightly muscled look. I put very little time and worry into maintaining my physique. When I was going to the gym, I knew guys that were constantly chugging back a protein shake, worrying about their next meal,never drank alcohol, etc...That sort of lifestyle in unappealing to me and I think I found a good compromise.

I respect that. I only ate once today, so maybe I'm a moody bitch. No hard feelings.