[polymath]

You guys ever think about whether all of this is really worth it? Like, is it wrong to be an asshole to a girl to get her interested? I feel like it would be far more pleasant to be nice to people, but it seems not to work like that.

I sometimes just break down, lose my frame, and want to be kind to people. But even writing that last sentence, which is true, makes me feel like a sociopath.

Is there something wrong with this style of dealing with girls, or is there something wrong with me?

[Cattle Rustler]

(08-24-2013 10:34 PM)polymath Wrote:  

You guys ever think about whether all of this is really worth it? Like, is it wrong to be an asshole to a girl to get her interested? I feel like it would be far more pleasant to be nice to people, but it seems not to work like that.

I sometimes just break down, lose my frame, and want to be kind to people. But even writing that last sentence, which is true, makes me feel like a sociopath.

Is there something wrong with this style of dealing with girls, or is there something wrong with me?

This sounds like a "was this beta" thread.

To answer your question, no. Although it depends what you classify as "dick" behavior. Losing frame makes you look like one because people will know you were bluffing and not take you seriously in the future.

Girls have guys hit on them acting beta, giving them compliments, flowers, etc. Being arrogant gets their attention and puts them in their place. Be decent to people, but when you're trying to game a girl....don't be a "nice" guy.

Sociopath has been bastardized nowadays. You did something I didn't like? You're a sociopath. Almost very business owner would be classified as one. It's similar to feminists and the use of the word "rape". Look out after about yourself first.

[chexmix]

I'm never a dick to girls, I find the ones that are interested in sex. I don't manipulate or lie, I just put up my desire to have sex with them and the ones who want to have sex with me will respond back. Being straightforward and honest is a much easier route for me at least.

edit: I guess when I reread OP's post I should clarify, I am not trying to be an asshole on purpose. I may seem like a dick to some people but everything I do is just how I honestly feel. It seems that OP it actively trying to be a dick because it works for him when picking up girls but it feels like an act of some sort.

Why do you feel the need to be a dick op?

[Rutting Elephant]

Maybe try reading more Roosh and less Roissy.

[BecomingMachine]

For me, I like being a dick to low value people to "charge up" my ego. When people mess with me at the club I work at or at one of my parties I don't think twice to dump a drink or kick someone out if they *REALLY* deserve it. If you can maintain frame and not lose your cool in a situation like that, it's points like you wouldn't believe- and I convince myself from time to time that the poor bastard/broad volunteered themselves as a sacrifice by putting themselves in my crosshairs.

That being said, nearly every time I actually get laid (as opposed to jockeying around drinking too much and spitting game aimlessly) I'm quite cordial, nice even, to the person I take home. The real issue with this to me is not that it reduces my close % (it probably does) but that it makes bitches REALLY hard to get rid of afterwards. Pipeline problems arise whenever they refuse to leave your fucking house.

[delicioustacos]

Being a cruel, deliberate asshole is one thing. Not giving a fuck and coming off as an asshole as a side effect is another.

[EisenBarde]

You can be kind and in control. They aren't mutually exclusive. But you need to be in control.

[WestIndianArchie]

This topic is frustrating, i'm just not sure why exactly.

4 attempts to answer it, 2,000 words later, I'm at a loss.

The basic thing here is that you don't understand game.

You see an asshole pull a hot chick, and then think in order to pull a hot chick, you need to be an asshole. (and no one has disabused you of that notion)

Of course you can develop yourself into your special brand of asshole, because truth betold, there's an asshole/dick in all of us. Exploring that anti-social side of yourself, and better expressing that to others can be great fun.

But we've been socialized to be SOCIAL. Which means, you put the group and others ahead of yourself. And when someone bucks the trend and puts themselves ahead of the group - we hate them.....yet some of us secretly and not-so-secretly want to be them.

So if you're coming from a typical mindset, and most of us do, becoming this domineering mf'er causes a lot of psychic and mental anguish.

But going down this road is the wrong one.

The typical advice is to reframe the asshole's behavior as one of "leadership" or "not giving a fuck" or "being your authentic self". You'll prolly hear plenty of that before the thread floats into the ether.

The other typical advice is to "stop talking to chicks that treat you like shit and want to be treated like shit" - which is defeatist as shit, but hey maybe i'm the one with a dim view of women.

As a permanent outsider to American culture, both of these counter measures reflect a culture aimed at trying to attract the most valuable thing on planet earth, young Western women.

Hence, a lotta players will fuck a few cougars and fatties, or delve into other countries for the same phenotype that they're after.

Let me suggest a different path.

Look around.

When I go out and see couples, or see folks hooking up, I see a variety of guys getting with attractive women.

Believe me, not all of them are domineering assholes who are smacking bitches on the ass as they pass by. (that shit works though, if you ain't seen a gorilla pimp in action, you're fucking sheltered)

So if you don't want to be that guy, don't be that guy.

The key with the pleasant approach is to make sure that she understands your kindness is not weakness. You can be in charge of a conversation/relationship without being the guy that takes every opportunity to put her in her place.

You can flirt/tease/joke your way into her pants, you don't need to "bring her down a notch", ply her with liquor, or pressure her into sex if that's not who you are.

I pretty much cringe on some of the mind games we discuss, but I also recognize that a lot of shit would not happen if we didn't make it happen. If we waited women to say, "come fuck me", the human race would be done.

That being said, if you take the "pleasant route", I think it's important that you make a legit show of strength on a fairly regular basis. That's part of "not being a push over/punk".

You showing her strength physically, in tight situations, with money, with body, with social skills, et cetera - all of those things make an impression on her, AND those around you.

And if you are developing those kinds of strength, it's valuable regardless of the women in your life.

WIA

[VincentVinturi]

The idea that you have to be an asshole to get girls is wrong. Women aren't attracted to assholes per se. They're attracted to raw, honest, authentic dudes who wear their sexuality on their sleeves and follow their personal truth firmly. OTHER people use the word "asshole" for these kinds of people because they don't like the mirror it holds up to THEM for going along with the herd mentality and not having the cajones to do what THEY want.

The truth is, when you live selfishly, and have your own deepest interests and desires at heart and refuse to apologize for it, people WILL call you an asshole. But that isn't under your control and isn't your problem.

From the outside looking in, it definitely looks like assholes get girls and nice guys finish last. But it isn't an either/or thing: either you're an asshole, or you're a nice guy. Either you're a gentleman or you're a jerk. You can be either or neither at any given time. You're just yourself. Are these words even definable? Is your idea of an 'asshole' the same as mine? Just words..

In my experience, the trick is to be yourself 100%, follow your gut and heart, no matter the cost. Then you'll be an asshole without even trying! Because you can bet many others won't be able to handle you being you. But again, that's their problem.

[Millz]

Seriously though more Roosh less Roissy. I prefer Roissy because his style fits me exactly but if you don't like being an arsehole go the Roosh route

[polymath]

Thanks guys, especially WIA.

[el mechanico]

This is kinda funny. I try to be nice but as soon as something crosses me I become a dick. Or I troll until a meltdown. The dick idea is standard for girls behaving poorly when you meet them not the cute girl working at the pharmacy. If you don't want to be a dick stay out of American bars and clubs. I go into default dick mode like playing a video game. I won't let anyone order drinks over me at the bar or squeeze in. I'll grab someones arm if the reach over me or around because I'm a dick and people at bars don't usually act polite so fuck them. Girls acting like entitled cunts need to be dealt with in dick mode and not just to pull them just because. When the smoke clears there's usually some pussy involved

[Player_1337]

Although it's drastically different than the way I operated in the past, I take pleasure in acting like an asshole to snooty and bitchy girls. Especially the ones that think they're some kind of coveted prize, or the hottest thing strutting around on two legs (and often have nothing more to offer than their youth and physical appearance). These chicks need someone to keep their egos in check.

[MrXY]

OP, this should help clear things up for you Caring vs Uncaring Assholery

[Saladin]

Don't think of being a dick as a "bad" thing.

Girls like varied emotions. You can play the nice guy game but you can really amp her buying temperature with push pull(I hate you, I love you). Girls love feeling different emotions, and just being "nice" can get boring. Any form of game has some sort of push/pull in it.

You want to constantly be experimenting. You want to try out different part of your personality to see what works.

I'm going to be trying a lot of asshole/ push pull game soon over the fall since I think that's something I need to work on. I feel like once you've got your vibe down shit like that can bring good results especially with bar/club game.

Julien is probably the best guy I know at this.

[CJ_W]

(08-24-2013 10:45 PM)chexmix Wrote:  

I'm never a dick to girls, I find the ones that are interested in sex. I don't manipulate or lie, I just put up my desire to have sex with them and the ones who want to have sex with me will respond back. Being straightforward and honest is a much easier route for me at least.

edit: I guess when I reread OP's post I should clarify, I am not trying to be an asshole on purpose. I may seem like a dick to some people but everything I do is just how I honestly feel. It seems that OP it actively trying to be a dick because it works for him when picking up girls but it feels like an act of some sort.

Why do you feel the need to be a dick op?

This (yes I'm necroing but its not that old of a thread)

There really is no need to "lose your cool"to a woman. Pretty much you just "silent next" her. Basically, if she is being shitty, you just stop whatever it is your doing, and leave. Do not contact her for a few days, enjoy your life, get some work done, work on other girls. Then contact her again for a bang at your place once a week. do this for a couple of weeks (just contacting her for bangs once a week) then if her attitude improves, you can resume spending your time with her outside of the bedroom. if her attitude DOESN'T improve, then she is just forever relegated to a FB untill she decides to move on.

Don't throw out her number though, instead just add her to your facebook as a friend. and forget about her for 3months. once evevery three months, check her profile and see if she's just got out of a relationship (usually she'll leave you because she found a beta dude to be her boyfriend/monogamous/whatever) and usually she'll get tired of him because, he's a boring beta pushover that showers her with affection (I saw this first had with a male buddy of mine. . .doing this shit all over his facebook, and after three weeks of Dotin. . .I mean Dating she dumped him and he writes some sad fuckign status on facebook -.-) Once she gets tired of him, invite he rover to "catch up" . . .bang.

OF COURSE while you're doing this you're dating other women and NOT particularly waiting on this one, she's just a recyclable piece of ass. Catch and Release, Cop and blow. . .of course you can Re-cop over and over again. This is pretty much the only reason why you should use facebook (unless you have networking stuff to do and even then its a seperate account +linkedin).

Remember You don't have to take shit from a woman, and you don't have to put up with bullshit from a woman, and you defiantely DO NOT have to get angry. If you find your self getting angry with a woman, you need to stop seeing her/relegate her to fb status.

Now of course if you're NOT already banging her and she's giving you attitude. . .this advice does not apply. . .delete her ass from your life.

This only works on women you've already banged.

but yeah there's no need to lose your cool to a woman (nor to a man really. . .as you shouldn't be putting yourself into situations where you need to fight a guy anyway)


If you're being a dick just to pick up girls, you are doing it wrong. Be YOU, but just be your confident, cool, nicely dressed, well-spoken, relaxed you. You don't have to put on an act like a fucking circus monking just to "stick it in." Its best that you don't either, because she'll just expect that kind of attitude, and you'll have to put on that act the whole time. There are women-HOT women that like YOU as you are (as long as you are not clingy/needy, don't take care of yourself,dress like crap) it's not that hard. . .really it's not.

and a lot of times throughout yourday women give you signals that let you know that they want you to talk to them. you should be watching out for those. All in all, game doesn't have to be hard as many many many people make it out to be. . .even with all the feminist b.s. out there.

Plus, you ARE A MAN! A woman's "shelf life' is from 16-28 a MAN's shelf life(where a man is more and mroe attractive to women) is from 30-death! yeah sure >20 can get with women too but once you hit 30, if you've got a decent job and a pad. . .you will DO WELL PERIOD.

you can bang all ages too! from 18(16 in some states/countries) - whatever age you want. . . and yes, there are young women that LOVE older men, period. They are not hard to find either, and in many cases, they'll let you know.

Do not forget that you are a MAN and pretty much have the chance to be sexually fufilled with hot, women for your whole damn life!

so when a chick tries to act shitty to you, just think about that and laugh! There is a chick that somehow popped up on a friends facebook feed. . .she wouldn't give me the time of day waaay back then, I let her go, found other hot women, and in the meantime she got. . .FAAAAAT as hell! AND she's 27 and feeling the heat (i.e. she needs to get married etc etc. . .) I just laughed and laughed.

We men have a LOT of power that we just haven't realized we have, when you realize it, ironically, women will be drawn to you...

so yeah, in the grand scheme of things, you should care about a woman with a shitty attitude is as much as you care about the ants crawling on the ground.

i.e. not even registering in your existence.

[el mechanico]

^ Um.. No. Being a fake dick is different than actually being a dick. In real dick mode there is no "silent next" or caring about Facebook.

[iknowexactly]

(08-25-2013 06:10 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

In my experience, the trick is to be yourself 100%, follow your gut and heart, no matter the cost. Then you'll be an asshole without even trying! Because you can bet many others won't be able to handle you being you. But again, that's their problem.

1) There's no success at ANYTHING without being hated.

2) Therefore, being hated should be a goal.

The obvious oversimplification in this is that if you are hated for being a psychopathic cunt, instead of honorably going after what you want, you deserve the rancid karma that may ensue.

But psychopathy must have some reproductive value, otherwise it would have died out. ( But couldn't you say that about diabetes too?)

The world is unfair, it is amoral. It's still not worth it to me to really be evil. But I also don't want to be CHICKEN. BRK BRK!! BRK BRK BRK!!!

There'a a fine line between "evil" and 'chickens" . There's a line to the grain FOR the evil chickens.

[Belize King]

Whatever works to get the lay. Some bishes like assholes. You adjust to your enviorment. Giovonny states it best.

It depends on if you arenout gaming or actually know these women. I adjust my game accordingly. I can play smooth, i can play confident, i can play cocky. I do what I need to to get the lay then move on to the next.

Too easy.

[speakeasy]

(08-24-2013 10:34 PM)polymath Wrote:  

You guys ever think about whether all of this is really worth it? Like, is it wrong to be an asshole to a girl to get her interested? I feel like it would be far more pleasant to be nice to people, but it seems not to work like that.

I sometimes just break down, lose my frame, and want to be kind to people. But even writing that last sentence, which is true, makes me feel like a sociopath.

Is there something wrong with this style of dealing with girls, or is there something wrong with me?

My natural personality state is not asshole-ish. I'm not going to try and turn myself into a dick just to appease a woman. If that's not who I am and I don't enjoy being such a person, I'm not going to do it. Maybe I'll lose out on some sex, but oh well. I'm not giving a wet pink hole that much power over who I am. How many women are changing their personalities to something they don't want to be in order to appease men?

[XXL]

If you put girls down all the time just to feel good and superior then that's fucked up if you ask me. But if you do it to help her to be more alive and feel emotions than usual then she enjoys it overall so it's fine. I think that's the distinction.

To me the "right" way to deliberate be a dick is to be challenging. So instead of trying to teach some bitch a lesson you say/do edgy stuff just as a challenge for her. It's like playing around with a dog when you imitate you teasing/fighting/wrestling/ with it [i don't know how to put it in english words] and your dog fights back trying to bite you etc but his tail is wagging so you know the that dog is playing along with you. it's similar with girls as fucked up as it sounds haha. You some throw shit at her and the vibe behind that is "i said it, your turn, what you gonna do?". It should playful. And subtle. So "you're 24? ugh... [make disgusted look and turn away]" is more likely to provoke her to qualify herself to you but "you're 24? ugh.. same age as my dog, it's barely breathing, you won't make it to you wedding" might be too much

[tiggaling]

A lot of it is American women hey. Negs and being a cocky mother will often work really well with American women, somehow they like you putting her off the pedastal and viewing her as a piece of dogshit. i.e. you be negative to them, they be positive to you! El Roosh has gone into this a fair bit. It seems to be a culture specific thing, I've even thought that American women have taken up "negs" as an understanding, "oh he really likes me, he's gaming me!"

But I have American male friends who also express affection through what is basically verbal abuse, so maybe it is some weird reversal of what affection means within that culture? Maybe people there just can't handle real and raw affection?

And when you are dealing with Eastern European women say, well, being a dick will not likely get you too far. Being fucking authentic, being real and giving her compliments will work. And that is not necessarily "beta". For real Alphas, and for real Pimps, they will just be straight up and not give a fuck. That's the key factor. If they have feelings, they are not afraid to communicate them. Full on Alphas who other guys fear, can be the most gooey, soft, "beta" people - because they are not scared, they do not give a fuck. This works! It is called being authentic and passionate. Full on, real alphas are not dicks, because being a dick is an exaggerated response who is known to be insensitive. They are more likely to be super considerate guys and it doesn't come off as beta if it is blinding clear he *is* alpha.

If being a dick is congruent with your personality, and that works for you, then enjoy it if you can! But, I think chicks are going to notice on some level that being a dick is an act and not authentic, they are going to smell it. I think Mark Minter makes the point that, by being inauthentic, you are going to naturally just get inauthenticness as a response.

The best people ladies men I know, are direct and passionate.

But I have thought that if was in America, and I had to deal with these *cunts* all the time, I suppose I often then could not help becoming a *dick* as an authentic and necessary response? Mark Minter says that he is vulnerable and real in America and it works for him, I'm not sure if he is being a bit disney here, but I say bully for him! Maybe the point is, there is so much BS in American culture, that being ruthless and honest in a negative sense (being a dick) can really work to get through to her - but perhaps being ruthless and honest in a positive sense (being vulnerable) can also work.

Except, it seems clear to me that whatever cuts through the crap and gets through to her is what will work best. For a lot of guys, being a dick is just not going to get through to her, I've seen guys around the place just alienating girls with their "being a dick" caper.

[The Beast1]

Being a dick in a woman's mind is not the same as being a dick in a guys mind.

The more I realize it, the more I have come to figure out that when women use words there are emotions attached to them. It's the same formula for winning arguments with feminists. You need to use emotionally charged words to plow throw the hidden meaning of whatever it is she is saying.

Here's a good example:

I ran into a girl last night that I know while shopping at the supermarket. I was looking like a bum. Think hair down and a t shirt that was too small for me with my beard looking scruffier than normal.

She looks at me and says, "Wow, you look ..... different."

Definitely not a compliment. I read it as, "You look like crap."

This is where an agree and amplify comes in. "Of course I look different, my hair is down and the shirt i'm wearing is too small. No shit sherlock!"

Response: Hahah! Your shirt is too small.

The duplicitous nature of women's words shouldn't bother you. It is just how they speak and act. Not all women act like this, but most. Enough to be annoying.

It's better to be known as a "dick" and be respected by women than, "He's such a great friend!" and not be respected at all.

I know I go through moments where I want to break down and just be this big loving doff like I used to be but the mass appeal of it isn't good.

[Capitán Peligroso]

Quote:

The key with the pleasant approach is to make sure that she understands your kindness is not weakness. You can be in charge of a conversation/relationship without being the guy that takes every opportunity to put her in her place.

This.