[JayJuanGee]

(10-29-2013 12:58 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Jay, after thinking about it, I realized that pasteurization and industrial dairy production go hand in hand. When you produce dairy on an industrial scale, at the lowest possible cost, you start creating an environment where bacteria can reach dangerous levels, with the cow sitting in its own feces all day. All these 'safety' measures are essential to ensure animal products aren't outright poisonous, because the animals are raised in such unsanitary conditions. It's like boiling urine to make it potable - it probably won't kill you at that point, but do you really want to be drinking it?

BR:

I agree with you that various parts of the whole industrial food production system is designed around the creation of only marginally safe produce - and possibly little to no nutritional value. So a question that I have been asking lately is whether I am getting any nutritional benefit from the product that I am eating (that potentially has been processed).

I do believe that we get some nutritional benefits from full fat milk or heavy cream (even if it has been processed), but NOT so much nutritional value from the skimmed versions - b/c when you take out the fat, then the affect on your body is nearly the same as drinking a soda - additionally, some people have bad tolerance to various milk products, and that bad tolerance is likely due to the processing of the products and taking out the nutritional value.

To kind of repeat myself, a similar situation exists with the irradiation of some vegetables. At this point, we do NOT really know the extent to which our vegetables are being irradiated b/c there is no requirement to label them as irradiated. And, maybe it is only leafy vegetables? I am NOT sure b/c it is NOT easy to keep up with all of the various skeeming that occurs in order that big companies can screw us in various ways in order to generate additional profits. But if certain vegetables are irradiated without our knowledge, then that irradiation will kill the vegetable and take away some of the nutritional benefit of eating a food that we had thought was raw - back to the analogy of drinking boiled piss, I suppose.

However, that reminds me of the claims about boiling water versus microwaving it. I thought that mythbusters was going to do a show on this microwaving versus boiling ( and whether I believe mainstream media?) Anyhow, some of the thoughts on microwaving is that if you feed plants cooled down water that has been boiled then the plants will do better on that water as compared with giving them microwaved water that has been cooled. Then the question is about the ruining of the molecular structure of the water by microwaving it, which may also apply to other foods.

[MidniteSpecial]

Raw goats milk and raw goat cheese is the only dairy I consume. And grass fed cow butter or grassfed ghee in my coffee with some coconut oil.

[Ringo]

Two months ago I bought my first whey protein protein powder (concentrate, not isolate), which ended up giving me a bad case of gas and diarrhea.

Although I used to drink up to 2 liters of milk a day and always ate yogurt, I now find myself incapable of consuming either without suffering from bad gas and sometimes diarrhea, too. Cheese doesn't seem to disturb my digestion, though.

I've slowly started bringing yogurt back to my diet, and the effects seem to be milder at the moment. Milk is off-limits atm. I also switched to whey protein isolate and have had good results.

Has anyone ever experienced something similar?

[MidniteSpecial]

The only way I consume dairy is the way nature intended. I go to a local farm and get raw goats milk in a big half gallon glass jar. A lot of regular stores carry raw goats cheese now. Anything else is inflammatory and filled with pathogens that can negatively affect your health.

Have your foods tested at a lab if you don't believe me.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-29-2013 02:09 PM)Ringo Wrote:  

Two months ago I bought my first whey protein protein powder (concentrate, not isolate), which ended up giving me a bad case of gas and diarrhea.

Although I used to drink up to 2 liters of milk a day and always ate yogurt, I now find myself incapable of consuming either without suffering from bad gas and sometimes diarrhea, too. Cheese doesn't seem to disturb my digestion, though.

I've slowly started bringing yogurt back to my diet, and the effects seem to be milder at the moment. Milk is off-limits atm. I also switched to whey protein isolate and have had good results.

Has anyone ever experienced something similar?

Ringo those various whey powders are processed, and I believe, similar to some of the philosophies of Weston Price, that foods are best eaten in their whole form rather than separating one part from another.

http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/princ...lthy-diets

I don’t really agree with the Weston price foundation about their acceptance of grains, but that is another story.

Also, are you eating and drinking raw dairy? Apparently, a lot of people can tolerate a large assortment of dairy products when they are consumed raw. In the USA, we have a lot of difficulties getting raw, and when we do, they are like 3-5 times more expensive, which is real Bull Shit and a scandal of sorts. Certainly, the availability of raw dairy is gonna vary from location to location. You are in Brazil, right? Is raw dairy available in Brazil?

(10-29-2013 02:29 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  

The only way I consume dairy is the way nature intended.

MidnightSpec:

Initially, I anticipated that you were gonna say that you went up to the goat and sucked the milk out of the tit, which probably would be the best.. maybe getting it from a pregnant woman would be even better, but sometimes a bit logistically problematic – and maybe even give the woman too much power over us guys.

(10-29-2013 02:29 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  

I go to a local farm and get raw goats milk in a big half gallon glass jar. A lot of regular stores carry raw goats cheese now. Anything else is inflammatory and filled with pathogens that can negatively affect your health.

Personally, I doubt the source of the inflammation are the pathogens and is more likely the processing of the milk products by removing nutrients and the other processing of the milk by homogenizing it. Personally, I believe that it is a myth to suggest that pathogens cause inflammation as a vehicle to get us to accept that the cure for this is to allow companies to pasteurize and homogenize and to engage in the other bullshit practices of various treatments of the milk to make milk something other than its natural state.

(10-29-2013 02:29 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  

Have your foods tested at a lab if you don't believe me.

I’m sure there are pathogens in various products, but that is really a red herring because if we get the nutrient values from foods in their natural states, then our body would be naturally able to fight off various impurities in the foods. If we are eating crap processed foods on an ongoing basis, then our bodies are less able to fight off the accumulation of toxins and pathogens and our bodies are blocked from its natural strengths.
In this regard, in nature and Paleolithic times, we likely introduced a lot of probiotics into our systems by eating unclean food and even dirt, and our bodies got benefits from the introduction of those impurities. These days, there is a certain amount of excessive attempts at cleanliness, which in the end it gonna screw us up because when we finally are exposed to pathogens and/or impurities, our bodies may NOT know how to handle it. I am NOT advocating eating waste, but I am suggesting that we need to be less worried about impurities and more willing to find food natural food sources and to focus on eating foods in their natural and whole states.

[MidniteSpecial]

Haha.

The pathogens don't cause the inflammation they cause your immune system to be compromised.

The casein in pasteurized COWS milk causes the inflammation.

Also:
“Milk protein… casein, when it breaks down in our digestive system, turns into casomorphin, [which] is relative to morphine – the drug,” Kenneth Kendrick, a whistleblower and food safety advocate. "It gives us a little stimulation in our brain and gives us a little bit of pleasure.”

[Veloce]

Gonna chime in here with a recent development.

Ive been doing Stronglifts for the past year. 11 months actually, so just under. In looking at stats of other guys in the program I realized my gains are solid, but not what they could be.

For the past couple months, I got lazy with eating, in that I wasn't eating enough. I got sick of pounding calories and eating just became too time consuming and uncomfortable for me. I'd read about GOMAD but I knew that my stomach doesn't react well to milk.

Well, after a pretty intense workout I decided to say fuckit and pound a gallon of milk yesterday. Truth be told, I felt fucking awesome. My body was screaming for calories and instead of having to eat plate after plate of food to hit my 3000 calorie minimum, all it took was one gallon of milk plus fairly regular eating. If I drink one gallon of milk, I can eat like a normal human and hit my calorie and protein minimums, and anything I can put down past that is just bonus. No stomach issues whatsoever...I'm not sure why this is. It could be that I always had milk with cereal, and maybe it was the wheat in cereal making me feel bloated and gassed up.

Regarding pathogens in food...I'm actually a huge proponent of not eating too clean. Mexicans have very strong immune systems and there's evidence leading to the fact that their sanitation and hygeine standards are much lower than ours. I rarely wash produce, I handle meat with my bare hands, I eat raw seafood, unpasteurized dairy, etc. I'd say about 75% of the time I'm surrounded with sick people at work, I never catch it, even though everyone around me is dropping like flies. I get sick about once every 2 to 3 years, and when I get it it's fucking terrible. Usually about a week on my death bed. But that's it. Meanwhile I notice people at work get sick about 3-4 times per year.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-29-2013 03:45 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

....... I'd read about GOMAD but I knew that my stomach doesn't react well to milk.

Well, after a pretty intense workout I decided to say fuckit and pound a gallon of milk yesterday. Truth be told, I felt fucking awesome. My body was screaming for calories and instead of having to eat plate after plate of food to hit my 3000 calorie minimum, all it took was one gallon of milk plus fairly regular eating. If I drink one gallon of milk, I can eat like a normal human and hit my calorie and protein minimums, and anything I can put down past that is just bonus. No stomach issues whatsoever...I'm not sure why this is.

Hey TheDude:

What kind of one gallon of milk are you drinking? Is it raw and whole? Do you have any sense whether drinking a gallon of half and half or possibly a gallon of heavy whipping cream may be even better than drinking whole milk? (I realize that heavy whipping cream can be fairly expensive and possibly its gonna fill you up too much).

[MidniteSpecial]

I did Gomad too. I felt awesome at first as well.

But eventually ended up catching a horrible head cold with a lot of mucus. Did the research and switched to raw goats milk and now I don't get the mucus but still get the added strength and muscle gain.

Everyone is different though.

I will add that I rarely get colds and never had mucus like that in my life. It went away once I stopped the cows milk.

[Tail Gunner]

(10-29-2013 02:09 PM)Ringo Wrote:  

Although I used to drink up to 2 liters of milk a day and always ate yogurt, I now find myself incapable of consuming either without suffering from bad gas and sometimes diarrhea, too. Cheese doesn't seem to disturb my digestion, though.

I've slowly started bringing yogurt back to my diet, and the effects seem to be milder at the moment. Milk is off-limits atm. I also switched to whey protein isolate and have had good results.

Has anyone ever experienced something similar?

Read post #47. You have become lactose intolerant from overuse of dairy products. You need to stop ingesting ALL dairy products to allow your body time to heal. After that happens, you might tolerate dairy products in moderation. Or better yet eat raw dairy, which is completely different than processed dairy.

[Basil Ransom]

Heavy whipping cream is not much pricier than milk - Target has quarts of it for $4, 3200 calories each. Whole milk is $3+ per gallon for 2560 calories. There's no protein in cream of course, so you'll need to ensure that you're getting enough protein elsewhere. Or make a shake like I do, 1 scoop of whey with 8 ounces of cream. Cream doesn't bloat me like milk does.

Jay, do you have any insights into the economics of raw milk? As in, assuming ideal government regulation, how much would a gallon of organic grass fed hormone free cow or goat's milk cost? The retail price I saw is $18. I wonder if a company like Costco got in the business and the government relaxed food safety restrictions, how much it would cost - $6 a gallon? $9?

I saw raw heavy cream for I think $12 for a pint. Tasted good but I stick to the $4 stuff for now.

[roid]

Well one url for you rawmilk.com

[Ringo]

(10-29-2013 04:51 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Read post #47. You have become lactose intolerant from overuse of dairy products. You need to stop ingesting ALL dairy products to allow your body time to heal. After that happens, you might tolerate dairy products in moderation. Or better yet eat raw dairy, which is completely different than processed dairy.

Skimmed through the thread and missed that post, thanks.

(10-29-2013 03:38 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Also, are you eating and drinking raw dairy? Apparently, a lot of people can tolerate a large assortment of dairy products when they are consumed raw. In the USA, we have a lot of difficulties getting raw, and when we do, they are like 3-5 times more expensive, which is real Bull Shit and a scandal of sorts. Certainly, the availability of raw dairy is gonna vary from location to location. You are in Brazil, right? Is raw dairy available in Brazil?

Hey Jay, thanks for the reply. I have never heard of raw milk being avaiable in the city (I live in São Paulo). A quick google search also shows that it is indeed hard, if not impossible, to buy around here. Goat's milk is 2-3x more expensive than regular cows milk, too.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Heavy whipping cream is not much pricier than milk - Target has quarts of it for $4, 3200 calories each. Whole milk is $3+ per gallon for 2560 calories. There's no protein in cream of course, so you'll need to ensure that you're getting enough protein elsewhere. Or make a shake like I do, 1 scoop of whey with 8 ounces of cream. Cream doesn't bloat me like milk does.

You may be correct that the price difference between heavy cream is NOT as great as I was thinking. However, I was thinking that the one that I buy in Smart and Final is nearly $8 for a half gallon carton, and I thought that I saw half and half in Costco for less than $4 for a half gallon carton.

Personally, i am of the belief that the calorie calculation is NOT very relevant, and a guy can get his protein from other sources, too.

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Jay, do you have any insights into the economics of raw milk?

I guess I am more jaded than I am scientific about this - b/c whenever I see raw milk in California, I see it being priced about 3 times the amount of non-raw. And, my belief is that it is a mere dynamic of something being priced into a shortage that causes the premium price - b/c in theory raw milk should be as cheap as processed milk b/c it is NOT having the extra expense of being processed (even though it may spoil more quickly). At this point, raw dairy is a novelty.. that get jacked up b/c of the novelty.

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

As in, assuming ideal government regulation, how much would a gallon of organic grass fed hormone free cow or goat's milk cost? The retail price I saw is $18. I wonder if a company like Costco got in the business and the government relaxed food safety restrictions, how much it would cost - $6 a gallon? $9?

Personally, i think that with a free market, there should NOT be any real price difference between raw and processed, even if there happens to be a shorter shelf life with raw milk.

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

I saw raw heavy cream for I think $12 for a pint. Tasted good but I stick to the $4 stuff for now.

BR - At that rate you are describing, you are finding a 6X mark-up for raw heavy cream. That is ridiculous in my thinking and NOT worth the premium. Best would be to know a farmer or to join a CSA - which is a form of local coop. I have NOT done this b/c I am planning to be leaving California soon, and i am NOT really that wedded to thinking that dairy is necessary in my diet - however, if I were staying in the area, i may want to look into a CSA.

[JayJuanGee]

(10-29-2013 08:53 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Heavy whipping cream is not much pricier than milk - Target has quarts of it for $4, 3200 calories each. Whole milk is $3+ per gallon for 2560 calories. There's no protein in cream of course, so you'll need to ensure that you're getting enough protein elsewhere. Or make a shake like I do, 1 scoop of whey with 8 ounces of cream. Cream doesn't bloat me like milk does.

You may be correct that the price difference between heavy cream is NOT as great as I was thinking. However, I was thinking that the one that I buy in Smart and Final is nearly $8 for a half gallon carton, and I thought that I saw half and half in Costco for less than $4 for a half gallon carton.

Personally, i am of the belief that the calorie calculation is NOT very relevant, and a guy can get his protein from other sources, too.

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Jay, do you have any insights into the economics of raw milk?

I guess I am more jaded than I am scientific about this - b/c whenever I see raw milk in California, I see it being priced about 3 times the amount of non-raw. And, my belief is that it is a mere dynamic of something being priced into a shortage that causes the premium price - b/c in theory raw milk should be as cheap as processed milk b/c it is NOT having the extra expense of being processed (even though it may spoil more quickly). At this point, raw dairy is a novelty.. that get jacked up b/c of the novelty.

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

As in, assuming ideal government regulation, how much would a gallon of organic grass fed hormone free cow or goat's milk cost? The retail price I saw is $18. I wonder if a company like Costco got in the business and the government relaxed food safety restrictions, how much it would cost - $6 a gallon? $9?

Personally, i think that with a free market, there should NOT be any real price difference between raw and processed, even if there happens to be a shorter shelf life with raw milk.

(10-29-2013 07:07 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

I saw raw heavy cream for I think $12 for a pint. Tasted good but I stick to the $4 stuff for now.

BR - At that rate you are describing, you are finding a 6X mark-up for raw heavy cream. That is ridiculous in my thinking and NOT worth the premium. Best would be to know a farmer or to join a CSA - which is a form of local coop. I have NOT done this b/c I am planning to be leaving California soon, and i am NOT really that wedded to thinking that dairy is necessary in my diet - however, if I were staying in the area, i may want to look into a CSA.

(10-29-2013 08:34 PM)Ringo Wrote:  

Hey Jay, thanks for the reply. I have never heard of raw milk being avaiable in the city (I live in São Paulo). A quick google search also shows that it is indeed hard, if not impossible, to buy around here. Goat's milk is 2-3x more expensive than regular cows milk, too.

Yeah... it's a form of scam how this movement away from raw dairy is taking place in so many parts of the world - although some groups of people do realize the nutritional benefits of raw milk over processed milk.

Oh and BTW, I know that this is a bit political, but personally, I do NOT exactly blame this on Govt - but in my view Govt has been used as a tool of various industries to regulate raw milk to the benefits of various industries and to the detriment of the health of people and our ability to have meaningful choices.

[kosko]

There is a big shady angle to the organic/local/natural food movement. Yuppies and granola types are getting raped by producers on price. People are bring up sound logic.

If I drive to a farm to buy fresh raw milk under the table the farmer simply has labour and a container to charge me for, the costs of processing, mass storage, and shipping are taken out of the equation. I understand mass produced crap is a whole other level. For example it's not possible to beat Mcdees in price, there are clear reasons their good costs as cheap as it does and no natural way aside from selling hamburgers of your front porch can beat them. Same aspect for supermarket milk but fresh farm milk shouldn't cost more then it's "organic" counterparts you see in the healhy stores.

[Basil Ransom]

Jay, the raw milk should be more expensive because of what I said earlier - to ensure raw milk is safe, the sanitation standards for the dairy farm are going to have to be way higher. I'm sure the actual pasteurization process is cheap, and may even save money by reducing spoilage and increasing shelf life. We know cows are fed antibiotics to stave off all the diseases prevalent in dirty feedlots.

Those $8 half cartons are manufacturing cream and are even fattier. However, they have an unpleasant bitter metallic taste, so I don't buy it. Heavy whipping cream has a soft slightly sweet flavor (but there's no sugar).

I think margins on health foods or organic foods depend on the venue. If you're buying it at Whole Foods or a health foods store, markup from producer to you could be high. From Trader Joe's or Costco, less so. The only place you can get raw milk is from pricey health foods stores though.

[Veloce]

The reason that major unpasteurized dairy producers like Organic Pastures is 3x more expensive is for many reasons already stated. I do NOT think that they are seeing major profits or are gouging customers. Raising cattle on grass rather than corn-based feed is much more expensive. These are cows that are taking up way more real estate than feedlot cattle that are standing knee deep in their own shit. Their operating costs are significantly higher than conventional dairy.

Manufacturing cream is garbage that's been spiked with stabilizers and thickeners. You want Heavy Whipping Cream, but goddamn you guys are going hardcore to be pounding that shit...I'll stick to whole milk.

Right now I'm just drinking Organic milk, it's not unpasteurized but I might try to switch to that. I get the Organic milk for free due to work etc but it would be hard for me to get the raw stuff for free and still fly under the radar...

The USDA is stuck in a very antiquated notion of livestock and food safety. Look up a guy named Joel Salatin and Polyface farms. He's a goddamn American hero in my eyes; an old fashioned farmer, raising grassfed cattle and chickens that peck around for worms the way nature intended, and he's pretty revolutionary in his methods of farming and husbandry. If it were up to me, he'd be in charge of the USDA and FDA.

[kbell]

I wonder how dwarf cows taste both meat and milk wise. You can fit a lot more of them in a space than say normal sized cows. Might be cheaper for larger scale productions.

[Basil Ransom]

Ha I saw a video of Joe Salatin a while back, the dude is amazing - smart, eloquent and funny as hell. Quite the trailblazer too. I saw him and I was like damn I want this man to be president. I even recall some pussies complaining he had more male internships than female internships on his farm, hahaha. Ah here's an article: http://thebeefjar.com/2011/01/20/why-is-...men-in-ag/

I have no issues drinking cream en masse, except maybe a little gas here and there. A cup of cream poses no digestive issues, while a cup or two of pasteurized whole cow milk gives my stomach that sinking feeling.

[Arithon]

The whole "raw milk" movement is pretty shrouded in pseudoscience... Please be careful. For a bit of balance in the conversation, here's some good reading material:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4383
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-...ern-times/
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/ra...swers.html

[kosko]

The Milk lobby is strong so the idea of raw milk will always be taboo to make sure their market is protected. With quotas and different rules in where you can ship and send your milk it's hard for smaller operations to get a economy of scale to see some constant returns. It's a industry that will never die but you have to tip your cap to families and farmers that still stick with it even with all the bullshit they have coming at them.

@basil what State do you live in? I'm Intrested to know what States it's not illegal to openly sell raw milk. In Ontario it's prohibited but large co-ops that run under loopholes of "private member" clubs are able to set up distribution systems to get the milk to you but selling it is all done backdoor and under the table.

[Basil Ransom]

Kosko I'm in California. It's legal here, but only specialty health foods stores stock it.

Joel Salatin said in of his videos that for farmers to sell meat to the public in a third party store, the meat had to be sent to a federal inspection facility at great cost. I also wonder how much more cost effective Salatin's rotational system is compared to the standard practices.

[cardguy]

My stomach looks like I am pregnant.

I am fat - but I think the size of my stomach is also down to bloating. But I can't be sure - since it is easy to mix the two up.

I say this because the bloating goes down if I go without dairy products. And because dairy products fuck me up (IBS type symptons along with alot of mucus being produced). Yet I enjoy milk, cheese and pizza too much to give it up.

I dunno' - It is hard to figure out. But even when I weighed alot less - my stomach was still very bloated (due to lactose intollerance I guess). It is pretty annoying since I don't understand exactly what bloating is. If it is gas - shouldn't that come out within a day or two???

[The Beast1]

I cut out milk products in my life because I did not like the taste of milk. I ate cheese and that never gave me problems.

When I realized that I wasn't eating enough food for lifting, I started doing the GOMAD (gallon of milk a day) challenge. Realistically it was a gallon of whole milk every 3 days.

First things I noticed, was acne. Yeah I got a little bit of acne, but it cleared up pretty quickly. I got a lot of $hits and bloating, but I solved this by supplementing a probiotic into my diet ( yoghurt and OTA pills). Eventually, the bloating stopped and I started to feel more grounded. My lifts started getting better as well. Soon after I ran out of probiotic pills and just stuck with yoghurt. All of the initial problems I had went away.

I still drink whole milk on the reg and use it as the base for all of my protein shakes. Whole milk is a staple of my diet and is so high in calories that I can hit my marks with it daily.