[thegmanifesto]

Minimal pro-Crossfit people on here.

I think Fisto is an advocate.

I would like to hear his take.

[worldwidetraveler]

(07-19-2013 04:18 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

I have done cross fit before and it is a joke in terms of both getting in shape or better looking (it is a joke for both).

I have only seen videos of crossfit but I find it hard to believe working out like that with that intensity won't get you in shape. I would be worried about injuries but don't believe you can't get into good shape doing those exercises if you're eating right.

[dog24]

Divorco the point is not on whether youre well off financially or not. A shitty investment is a shitty one even if your rich or not. Whats the point of doing 21 clean and jerk with a subminimal weight? The goal is to put as much weight possible over your head period, i heard they even give out gold medals for it. And not only do you do 21 you time it??? For what, when it comes to strength training its better to have a couple of minutes to rest between sets and the sets shouldnt be more than 5 reps. So youre not getting stronger, youre not doing hypertrophy training, all youre doing is cardio fucking around with a very complex lift that could rip apart your shoulder.... No offense but your post clearly reflects the douchey attitude that keeps getting criticism even in this topic

[WestCoast]

@wwt

Yes you can get in shape, but for $125 a monh you can get way better bang for your buck. I also mentioned most will get injured.

I will be shocked if fisto comes in and says it's legit. Even so I would still hold my position.

$125 a month you can do a hundred different things with better return on investment.

[Thug Muffin]

The Fran workout he mentions is actually 21-15-9 of 95lb thrusters and pull ups. I think most of the complaints of CF come from people looking at crossfit.com workouts. Personally I don't like them at all. If you look at the top CF guys they don't follow the mainsite at all. They do a strength portion followed by a crossfit wod or as most of you know it a conditioning workout.

Crossfit Invictus which puts out consistently good results in the CF games has a great grasp of proper programming.

Here's today's workout for their general population

Workout of the Day (strength portion)
A.
Three sets of:
Single-Arm Dumbbell or Kettlebell Press x 6-8 reps each arm
Rest 45 seconds
Romanian Deadlift x 6-8 reps @ 30X1
Rest 45 seconds
Side Planks x 30-45 seconds each side
Rest 45 seconds

B. (conditioning)
Partners alternate whole rounds to complete as many rounds and reps as possible in 15 minutes of:
3 Man-Makers
6 Burpees
9 Box Jumps

Crossfit Football also has a great philosophy on programming. They emphasize a Mark Rippetoe linear program that revolves around the squat, press(bench/shoulder), deadlift, pull up, and a power snatch/clean at a 5x5, 5x3, etc..

This is then followed by a short conditioning workout that can vary from sprints, gassers, prowler, sled drags, etc...

I get the hate people have for CF. It almost mirrors red/blue pill debate. Every CF gym has their own interpretation of CF. It's like finding a style of game. Go to a CF gym that mirrors the results you want and give it a honest effort. I think you'll be surprised that it's not retarded as you think. I won't argue that there aren't stupid CF gyms hurting the brand that put out McDonald like workouts. There's also some great boxes that are really passionate about progressing CF and believe in it's methodology of incorporating what works and tossing out what doesn't.

Check out AJ Roberts who chronicles his switch from powerlifting to CF.

"For those that don't know me, my name is AJ Roberts and I'm the former 308 All Time Total record holder in powerlifting with best lifts of 1205 squat, 910 bench and a 815 deadlift."

(07-19-2013 05:26 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Divorco the point is not on whether youre well off financially or not. A shitty investment is a shitty one even if your rich or not. Whats the point of doing 21 clean and jerk with a subminimal weight? The goal is to put as much weight possible over your head period, i heard they even give out gold medals for it. And not only do you do 21 you time it??? For what, when it comes to strength training its better to have a couple of minutes to rest between sets and the sets shouldnt be more than 5 reps. So youre not getting stronger, youre not doing hypertrophy training, all youre doing is cardio fucking around with a very complex lift that could rip apart your shoulder.... No offense but your post clearly reflects the douchey attitude that keeps getting criticism even in this topic

[Thug Muffin]

One very cool thing about our top CF guy Rich Froning.
At 94 kg he has a 290kg total which would qualify him for the 2013 United States of America Weightlifting Championships

[Divorco]

(07-19-2013 05:26 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Whats the point of doing 21 clean and jerk with a subminimal weight? The goal is to put as much weight possible over your head period,

That is an aerobic workout. Crossfit commonly does heavy lifts too. This is a common criticism: "Crossfit is bad because Crossfit is not X", where X is Olympic lifting, powerlifting, sprinting, gymnastics, or whatever. Crossfit is not about athleticism, it is about fitness. It is a compromise across strength and aerobics. Mark Ripptoe cares only about strength, and mocks guys who want look like Abercrombie and Fitch models. But I want to be lean, with abs. I also want to run fast, and occasionally run a few miles.

Most of us are out of shape most of the time. We don't need to specialize like an elite lifter or sprinter. We need something to challenge us on dimensions of both strength and aerobics. Look at Lothario's recently bumped bench press thread. He doesn't bench much more than his body weight after lifting with a conventional program. So a Crossfit program would not sacrifice much in strength, while teaching him Olympic lifts and aerobics. It's a good compromise.

Suppose you are broke, with lots of time, with a prowler in the trunk of your car, and an olympic lifting bar and expensive bumper plates and kettlebells in your spacious apartment. Then you can do multiple strength and aerobic workouts per week. But suppose you have a demanding and lucrative career in medicine or finance. You also care for parents or kids. And you need time to game. Then Crossfit makes sense for you. Personally I like the idea of one strength workout, one convenient run, and one mixed Crossfit session per week.

We get criticisms about cost, but the suggestions cost as much as the Crossfit, particularly when you add on the cost of another gym. Gold's gym isn't free, and Equinox ain't cheap!

(07-19-2013 01:56 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

just get a personal trainer ... 10-15 days out of the year

(07-19-2013 04:27 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

You'd be better off spending $60-80 to hire an olympic weight lifting coach once a month.

A more legit criticism is that Crossfit workouts are random, which is not an ideal program. They are not tailored to your specific needs. And yes, you do need to be cautious about form. But the lifts are supervised every workout. Again, it's a compromise.

[Doctor]

(07-19-2013 04:00 PM)Divorco Wrote:  

The functional aspect uses heavy Olympic lifts and power lifts. But there is not a focused linear progression on single exercises. Crossfit also has an important aerobic aspect. Crossfit says "We can do what you do almost as well as you, and you can't do our stuff at all." For example, one elite weightlifter could clean and jerk 400+ pounds. So they timed him doing "Fran", using "only" 135 pounds (the normal prescription is 95 pounds). It consists of 21 clean and jerks, 21 pull-ups, then 15 clean and jerks, 15 pull-ups, and 9 clean and jerks, 9 pull-ups. The best Crossfit guys do Fran in four minutes, but the elite lifter took 20 minutes!

"Heavy" is relative.

And the whole "We can do what you do almost as well as you, and you can't do our stuff at all" I don't buy. I don't know of the circumstances involved in this cross training so it is tough to say exactly, but I see some holes.
For starters, the oly lifter was using 135 while the regular weight was 95. That's a 45% difference (give or take). That's a significant difference for a timed event. Who was the oly lifter? Was he at 250+lbs lifter cleaning just over 400? Or a 205lbs lifter cleaning well over 400? There is a significant difference between the two. And irregardless, to clean and jerk 400+ I'd say you'd have to be able to front squat close to if not over 500lbs. If you can front squat over 500, 45 reps with 135 won't be that difficult no matter what. And kipping, regardless of how stupid it is, has technique to it. You have to practice to be efficient at it.
And what does "almost as good as you" mean? Almost is a pretty vague term. If the oly lifter can do 400, even being 10% away means 360. If I benched 360 I wouldn't say I almost bench 400.

So your putting someone who trains the movements in a timed event against someone who doesn't train those specific movements in a timed event with heavier weight. I am not surprised at all that the olympic lifter was that far behind.

And there are CFers who excel at the olympic lifts. There always will be genetic freaks. A few examples don't justify generalizations.

And not to discredit any American olympic weightlifter (I give them all the credit in the world as they do things that I can't), but on the worldwide scale American weightlifting is pretty poor compared to the top countries. Going off the top of my head (numbers may be incorrect) the Olympic records are roughly a 580C&J in the 2000 olympics by Iranian Hussein Rezzezzadah (sp?) and a 490 Snatch by another Iranian in 2012 (whose name I can't remember and it might have been at Worlds not the olympics). I don't think there is any American who can snatch over 400 (I remember Pat Mendes attempted in the gym with straps and might have gotten it, not sure) and maybe a handful who have C&J over 500.

[obrero]

Crossfit is the best way I know of to get very, very fit if you don't have any other athletic interests. If you have a good coach you will learn very useful global motor patterns that apply to every sport. That's what Crossfit is all about. The don't specialize in any activity, but they do teach you to move your body efficiently.

The explosive hip extension that you see in a clean and jerk or snatch is the same hip extension you see in the kipping pull up or a kipping muscle up. I don't see you gentlemen complaining about all the 'cheating' olympic lifters who use a dynamic movement to put a bar overhead. What's the problem with someone using a dynamic movement to do a pull up? If you complain that these movements done as fast as possible will hurt you, you make it obvious that you've never played a sport or trained hard for any athletic activity, ever.

[Doctor]

(07-19-2013 09:37 PM)obrero Wrote:  

Crossfit is the best way I know of to get very, very fit if you don't have any other athletic interests. If you have a good coach you will learn very useful global motor patterns that apply to every sport. That's what Crossfit is all about. The don't specialize in any activity, but they do teach you to move your body efficiently.

The explosive hip extension that you see in a clean and jerk or snatch is the same hip extension you see in the kipping pull up or a kipping muscle up. I don't see you gentlemen complaining about all the 'cheating' olympic lifters who use a dynamic movement to put a bar overhead. What's the problem with someone using a dynamic movement to do a pull up? If you complain that these movements done as fast as possible will hurt you, you make it obvious that you've never played a sport or trained hard for any athletic activity, ever.

I'm sorry. If you think any of this is even remotely accurate, then you really have no clue. I was going to say there is a shred of truth in there, but how it is worded there isn't.

The fact that something like this is far too common is one of the many reasons why I dislike CF.

[reaper23]

so much nonsense in this thread

i did crossfit for three years. our gym produced a girl who has been to nationals five times in a row.

its all 'box' dependent. my place was crazy. form nazi's, every lift watched and coach. EVERY REP. small group sizes. every rep tracked and monitored. every workout scaled.

form over everything.

you had to do a foundations class to start, plus then observe sessions and then take a written fucking test just to join.

$250/mo

worth every penny IMO

we did strict pull ups AND kipping pull ups.

jesus

but at the end of the day, i wanted to focus more just on pure strength, so i quit. and now my deadlift is over 500.

but my cardio is shit!

[reaper23]

PS Fran is not clean and jerks, it is thrusters

[AntiTrace]

(07-19-2013 10:24 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

but at the end of the day, i wanted to focus more just on pure strength, so i quit. and now my deadlift is over 500.

but my cardio is shit!

good post. This really is the problem I face.

I lift to increase my pure strength.

I see my cardio suffer.

The cost of crossfit gym doesn't justify it if I am only in it for the cardio. Running hills and HIIT I can do for free. I just need to get off my ass and do it. Running is where my motivation falls short.

[obrero]

(07-19-2013 10:04 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 09:37 PM)obrero Wrote:  

Crossfit is the best way I know of to get very, very fit if you don't have any other athletic interests. If you have a good coach you will learn very useful global motor patterns that apply to every sport. That's what Crossfit is all about. The don't specialize in any activity, but they do teach you to move your body efficiently.

The explosive hip extension that you see in a clean and jerk or snatch is the same hip extension you see in the kipping pull up or a kipping muscle up. I don't see you gentlemen complaining about all the 'cheating' olympic lifters who use a dynamic movement to put a bar overhead. What's the problem with someone using a dynamic movement to do a pull up? If you complain that these movements done as fast as possible will hurt you, you make it obvious that you've never played a sport or trained hard for any athletic activity, ever.

I'm sorry. If you think any of this is even remotely accurate, then you really have no clue. I was going to say there is a shred of truth in there, but how it is worded there isn't.

The fact that something like this is far too common is one of the many reasons why I dislike CF.

Care to elaborate?

[dog24]

Is this the crossfit hamster? Divorco the fact that you refer to crossfit as an elite workout for elite and highly succesful people with no time to waste is enough reason not to respond. If you cant see how youre in the wrong youre deluded. Since when is such a accomplishment to qualify for nationals, im not an american please aware but i do follow cal strength and mdusa where they talk about rankings and stuff, rich froning was never mentioned. Obrero your post reminds me of this guy that said that a kipping pullup is a "power" pullup like a push press is to a military press, like you have been told is you can see the flawed logic to it there is no point in debating it.

[Therapsid]

(07-19-2013 11:25 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Is this the crossfit hamster?

Guys have seriously gotta stop hurling the hamster accusation at anyone they disagree with. It's getting ridiculous.

I lift and do HIIT, but honestly the close-mindedness of guys in the bodybuilding and powerlifting community is ridiculous. Not just on here, but anywhere CrossFit is discussed online, or on any YouTube video about it, you'll find swarms of creatine-pumped bodybuilders trying to tear everybody down.

Whatever, top fitness models like Greg Plitt and Rob Riches have gotten into CrossFit and have given it respect.

[one-two]

Anything over $30/month is crazy, unless you need money to motivate your attendance.

Check groupon for crossfit deals. I got 10 visits for $50 and I go once every couple of weeks. This is pretty much the only cardio I get. It's fun to have other people cheer you on when you're all out of gas and the girls there are way better looking than at the gritty gym down the road.

By the way, what is equinox?

[Doctor]

(07-19-2013 10:55 PM)obrero Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 10:04 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 09:37 PM)obrero Wrote:  

Crossfit is the best way I know of to get very, very fit if you don't have any other athletic interests. If you have a good coach you will learn very useful global motor patterns that apply to every sport. That's what Crossfit is all about. The don't specialize in any activity, but they do teach you to move your body efficiently.

The explosive hip extension that you see in a clean and jerk or snatch is the same hip extension you see in the kipping pull up or a kipping muscle up. I don't see you gentlemen complaining about all the 'cheating' olympic lifters who use a dynamic movement to put a bar overhead. What's the problem with someone using a dynamic movement to do a pull up? If you complain that these movements done as fast as possible will hurt you, you make it obvious that you've never played a sport or trained hard for any athletic activity, ever.

I'm sorry. If you think any of this is even remotely accurate, then you really have no clue. I was going to say there is a shred of truth in there, but how it is worded there isn't.

The fact that something like this is far too common is one of the many reasons why I dislike CF.

Care to elaborate?

Actually I don't.

[Doctor]

(07-20-2013 12:12 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:25 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Is this the crossfit hamster?

Guys have seriously gotta stop hurling the hamster accusation at anyone they disagree with. It's getting ridiculous.

I lift and do HIIT, but honestly the close-mindedness of guys in the bodybuilding and powerlifting community is ridiculous. Not just on here, but anywhere CrossFit is discussed online, or on any YouTube video about it, you'll find swarms of creatine-pumped bodybuilders trying to tear everybody down.

Whatever, top fitness models like Greg Plitt and Rob Riches have gotten into CrossFit and have given it respect.

I agree with you that there is close mindedness. I may be biased, but I have seen it worse with BBrs. However, it would be unfair to take into account the equally close minded elitist CF mentality that you find. All sides have their faults.

[MidniteSpecial]

My buddy owns a Crossfit so I go for free. But if I had dough like that I would spend it.

1. They always get me to do things I wouldn't do on my own at a regular gym.

2. I love the competitive aspect. When I see someone doing better then me it makes me want to push that harder.

3. You can actually build relationships pretty easy with cute girls if they are there because you are always in a group setting or doing partner type work outs.

4. It gets you really agile and athletic. I find myself jumping over shit and have a nice 'spring' in my step when I do Crossfit faithfully. All the box jumps and double unders I suppose.

[Divorco]

(07-19-2013 07:48 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

"Heavy" is relative.

And the whole "We can do what you do almost as well as you, and you can't do our stuff at all" I don't buy.

My Crossfit occasionally does max singles.

People here admit that when they specialized in strength, their cardio deteriorated. Some of the posts here give me the impression that everybody is an elite Olympic lifter. But I read that Kenneth Cooper, the father of the aerobics revolution, couldn't do a single pull-up. Meanwhile I see fat lifters at Gold's who can't run a mile. Roosh forum members are not athletes. We are a bunch of guys who want to improve our lifestyles to get out of the socially programmed beta rat race. We need red pills to improve dating, career/travel flexibility, and health/fitness. One of those red pills is brief, intense, functional workouts with both aerobic and strength components. I am not exclusively Crossfit, but it definitely works for people.

(07-19-2013 11:25 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Divorco the fact that you refer to crossfit as an elite workout for elite and highly succesful people with no time to waste is enough reason not to respond.

Thanks for the clarification. But all I said was that some of us are well-off enough to afford the convenience of Crossfit. This was in response to Westcoast, who promotes a blog about career and investing success while criticizing Crossfit for its expense.

To be fair, Crossfit has a cult reputation. But Mark Ripptoe commented on Crossfit founder Greg Glassman:

My own opinion of Greg is that he has done more to legitimize actual training in the minds of the public than any other person since Arthur Jones destroyed it in the mid-70s.

[Hades]

I am mostly pro Crossfit despite some of their dumber antic that have been filmed and put up on youtube. When people learn and understand that there's a lot of different ways to skin a cat, that you can get conditioned or stronger by doing things other than jogging or bench press, then hopefully more people can find what works for them. There's nothing wrong with doing a workout of 100 burpees every day, and that will definitely keep you well conditioned year-round and in great shape. It's somewhat because of crossfit that I do a small conditioning workout every day along with a strength routine.

They also have attracted an impressive amount of lifting and gymnastic coaching talent and brought gymnastic rings back into the fold for people to simply use as strength tools.

Another thing I think we're ignoring here guys is that a lot of gyms (to some extent) are under capacity, one more lifter for a total of five hours a week isn't going to break the bank.
What I mean here is that you can probably walk right up to the gym owner, explain that you want to work out but you're poor, and you can probably get a discounted membership even if it is a franchise.

I have haggled over membership fees in both the US and Germany and I got free trial periods, discounts, and access to a sauna out of the deal. A lot of these guys just want people in the door and if you're paying anything that's money in the bank. They might even keep you off the books and use what little you do pay (maybe twenty bucks a month or whatever) to stock the pop machine.
I don't see why the guys at Crossfit wouldn't be the same.

[MidniteSpecial]

I've been doin a heavy lifts Monday wed Friday routine and running a mile Tuesday Thursday Saturday. With some sprints once a week too.

[cool]

There is a crossfit room at my gym. I go in there after doing my regular workout to do some heavy kettlebell movements. On the whiteboard, there is always the workout of the day posted. It's always like 5-10 exercises of high reps. Just reading it makes my joints ache. I've never done crossfit myself but I've never seen anyone in the crossfit room with a body I would want.

Another thing, why do people into crossfit try to introduce newbies to weightlifting by having them do advanced lifts? I've seen a guy trying to teach a group of 5-6 out of shape people how to do barbell snatches.

[obrero]

(07-20-2013 07:39 AM)Doctor Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 10:55 PM)obrero Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 10:04 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 09:37 PM)obrero Wrote:  

Crossfit is the best way I know of to get very, very fit if you don't have any other athletic interests. If you have a good coach you will learn very useful global motor patterns that apply to every sport. That's what Crossfit is all about. The don't specialize in any activity, but they do teach you to move your body efficiently.

The explosive hip extension that you see in a clean and jerk or snatch is the same hip extension you see in the kipping pull up or a kipping muscle up. I don't see you gentlemen complaining about all the 'cheating' olympic lifters who use a dynamic movement to put a bar overhead. What's the problem with someone using a dynamic movement to do a pull up? If you complain that these movements done as fast as possible will hurt you, you make it obvious that you've never played a sport or trained hard for any athletic activity, ever.

I'm sorry. If you think any of this is even remotely accurate, then you really have no clue. I was going to say there is a shred of truth in there, but how it is worded there isn't.

The fact that something like this is far too common is one of the many reasons why I dislike CF.

Care to elaborate?

Actually I don't.